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Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
I always thought it was unfair the way Floyd and his camp used the PED propaganda bullshit on Manny. It was utter and complete BS.
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
He reckons that because Manny moved up in weight so spectacularly and UPPED his power to boot that Manny had to be using PED's. They all take supplements, but no way do I think Manny over-did the PED's.
Has anyone seen footage of Manny when he was a bantam back in the Philippines? He was too strong at that weight in any event, and evidence showed that he had Welterweight power at Bantamweight. It wasn't fair for him to stay at that weight and pummel guys into submission.
Also, it wasn't as if Manny was the ONLY fighter to carry his power up in weight.
Sugar Ray Leonard took his power well into the LH's from lightweight.... Roy Jones took his power- a little bit of it- right into the LH's and peaked... Hearns took his power well into the Cruiserweight from light welterweight... Artuto Gatti started out at featherweight and took power to at least the light welters...
So, Floyd's camp was fulla caca!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I always thought it was unfair the way Floyd and his camp used the PED propaganda bullshit on Manny. It was utter and complete BS.
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
He reckons that because Manny moved up in weight so spectacularly and UPPED his power to boot that Manny had to be using PED's. They all take supplements, but no way do I think Manny over-did the PED's.
Has anyone seen footage of Manny when he was a bantam back in the Philippines? He was too strong at that weight in any event, and evidence showed that he had Welterweight power at Bantamweight. It wasn't fair for him to stay at that weight and pummel guys into submission.
Also, it wasn't as if Manny was the ONLY fighter to carry his power up in weight.
Sugar Ray Leonard took his power well into the LH's from lightweight.... Roy Jones took his power- a little bit of it- right into the LH's and peaked... Hearns took his power well into the Cruiserweight from light welterweight... Artuto Gatti started out at featherweight and took power to at least the light welters...
So, Floyd's camp was fulla caca!
Not sure where you are getting these weight classes. SRL and Tommy Hearns both won their first titles at WW. Not lightweight and Jr. WW as you suggest.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I always thought it was unfair the way Floyd and his camp used the PED propaganda bullshit on Manny. It was utter and complete BS.
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
He reckons that because Manny moved up in weight so spectacularly and UPPED his power to boot that Manny had to be using PED's. They all take supplements, but no way do I think Manny over-did the PED's.
Has anyone seen footage of Manny when he was a bantam back in the Philippines? He was too strong at that weight in any event, and evidence showed that he had Welterweight power at Bantamweight. It wasn't fair for him to stay at that weight and pummel guys into submission.
Also, it wasn't as if Manny was the ONLY fighter to carry his power up in weight.
Sugar Ray Leonard took his power well into the LH's from lightweight.... Roy Jones took his power- a little bit of it- right into the LH's and peaked... Hearns took his power well into the Cruiserweight from light welterweight... Artuto Gatti started out at featherweight and took power to at least the light welters...
So, Floyd's camp was fulla caca!
Not sure where you are getting these weight classes. SRL and Tommy Hearns both won their first titles at WW. Not lightweight and Jr. WW as you suggest.
Not winning titles, but the weight they started at...
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
Pac did sue Floyd.
Really Floyd was ahead of his time, because the commissions have now moved towards random urine AND blood testing, because they've realized that the standard scheduled piss test is almost complete ineffective in catching drug cheats. Mike Tyson talked about how he cheated the drug tests and how easy it was in his book.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
Pac did sue Floyd.
Really Floyd was ahead of his time, because the commissions have now moved towards random urine AND blood testing, because they've realized that the standard scheduled piss test is almost complete ineffective in catching drug cheats. Mike Tyson talked about how he cheated the drug tests and how easy it was in his book.
That's just bs floyd has no more intelligence than the below average person. What floyd has in the ring is natural boxing skill developed from being a gym rat even as a baby. What is said to be his boxing intelligence is really just his natural reflexes. Most fighters learn boxing skill through conditioned reflex. Which is working a technique until you don't have to thing about what you are doing. If floyd scored over 110 on a iq test. He was just trying a mind fuck, and now he's being credited for being ahead of his time. Ask him if he'd do it again and he'll lie to you face and say yea for the good of boxing. To his self he'd hell no that shit cost me too much f'n money.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
Pac did sue Floyd.
Really Floyd was ahead of his time, because the commissions have now moved towards random urine AND blood testing, because they've realized that the standard scheduled piss test is almost complete ineffective in catching drug cheats. Mike Tyson talked about how he cheated the drug tests and how easy it was in his book.
That's just bs floyd has no more intelligence than the below average person. What floyd has in the ring is natural boxing skill developed from being a gym rat even as a baby. What is said to be his boxing intelligence is really just his natural reflexes. Most fighters learn boxing skill through conditioned reflex. Which is working a technique until you don't have to thing about what you are doing. If floyd scored over 110 on a iq test. He was just trying a mind fuck, and now he's being credited for being ahead of his time. Ask him if he'd do it again and he'll lie to you face and say yea for the good of boxing. To his self he'd hell no that shit cost me too much f'n money.
Clearly an expert on intelligence right here. What the hell are you talking about, "natural boxing skill developed from being a gym rat?" What do you consider "boxing intelligence" to mean anyways, how well one can do long division or debate, while they are slipping punches? Nobody is saying he's articulate, or missed his calling as a concert violinist. I'd bet he's no dumber than you in a general sense however.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Pactards are none too bright.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Pactards are none too bright.
we shine over anti-pactards
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Pactards are none too bright.
we shine over anti-pactards
PREACH Donkey!!!! Hahaha!
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Pactards are none too bright.
we shine over anti-pactards
PREACH Donkey!!!! Hahaha!
Donkey??!! You mean AT donkey, i.e. yourself?
OK: "I SHALL lay my vengeance upon you with furious rebukes so you will know that I am THE LORD..."
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Lord of the Pactards... Congrats!
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Lord of the Pactards... Congrats!
The title, sort of, belongs to me. I am one of the original pac fans here. I was even made Mod by Saddo in one of the boards which was dedicated solely for Pacquaio ( I don't know if there are still people who can remember it). Sadly, Saddo ultimately decided not to continue with the Pacquaio board because of my behavior -- I had to delete any post that would attack Pac in that board. Saddo, according to a very reliable intelligence report, did not like what I was doing. hehehe.:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
Pac did sue Floyd.
Really Floyd was ahead of his time, because the commissions have now moved towards random urine AND blood testing, because they've realized that the standard scheduled piss test is almost complete ineffective in catching drug cheats. Mike Tyson talked about how he cheated the drug tests and how easy it was in his book.
That's just bs floyd has no more intelligence than the below average person. What floyd has in the ring is natural boxing skill developed from being a gym rat even as a baby. What is said to be his boxing intelligence is really just his natural reflexes. Most fighters learn boxing skill through conditioned reflex. Which is working a technique until you don't have to think about what you are doing. If floyd scored over 110 on a iq test. He was just trying a mind fuck, and now he's being credited for being ahead of his time. Ask him if he'd do it again and he'll lie to you face and say yea for the good of boxing. To his self he'd hell no that shit cost me too much f'n money.
Clearly an expert on intelligence right here. What the hell are you talking about, "natural boxing skill developed from being a gym rat?" What do you consider "boxing intelligence" to mean anyways, how well one can do long division or debate, while they are slipping punches? Nobody is saying he's articulate, or missed his calling as a concert violinist. I'd bet he's no dumber than you in a general sense however.
What a load of rubbish. You miss the point. Floyd's control and athletic ability has nothing to do with his level of intelligence. Athletes that have control over thier game do not have to think. If they think, they hesitate rather than using instinctive actions and reactions.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Your post? Yes, yes it was. You do sound much less stupid sticking to one line though, no matter what the context. Try limiting yourself to that.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Yeah I mean it had nothing to do with my post. I never said Floyd was intelligent, I just said the approach to drug testing that he took was ahead of it's time, because it's being used as a standard now. I don't know what you were talking about.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
Pac did sue Floyd.
Really Floyd was ahead of his time, because the commissions have now moved towards random urine AND blood testing, because they've realized that the standard scheduled piss test is almost complete ineffective in catching drug cheats. Mike Tyson talked about how he cheated the drug tests and how easy it was in his book.
That's just bs floyd has no more intelligence than the below average person. What floyd has in the ring is natural boxing skill developed from being a gym rat even as a baby. What is said to be his boxing intelligence is really just his natural reflexes. Most fighters learn boxing skill through conditioned reflex. Which is working a technique until you don't have to thing about what you are doing. If floyd scored over 110 on a iq test. He was just trying a mind fuck, and now he's being credited for being ahead of his time. Ask him if he'd do it again and he'll lie to you face and say yea for the good of boxing. To his self he'd hell no that shit cost me too much f'n money.
I never understood this argument about Floyd "adjusts" during fights. I don't see that. I see him run and at best uses the counter-right. That's his adjustments.
:-\
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Funny to read this kinda threads and put usernames to fighters :)
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I always thought it was unfair the way Floyd and his camp used the PED propaganda bullshit on Manny. It was utter and complete BS.
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
He reckons that because Manny moved up in weight so spectacularly and UPPED his power to boot that Manny had to be using PED's. They all take supplements, but no way do I think Manny over-did the PED's.
Has anyone seen footage of Manny when he was a bantam back in the Philippines? He was too strong at that weight in any event, and evidence showed that he had Welterweight power at Bantamweight. It wasn't fair for him to stay at that weight and pummel guys into submission.
Also, it wasn't as if Manny was the ONLY fighter to carry his power up in weight.
Sugar Ray Leonard took his power well into the LH's from lightweight.... Roy Jones took his power- a little bit of it- right into the LH's and peaked... Hearns took his power well into the Cruiserweight from light welterweight... Artuto Gatti started out at featherweight and took power to at least the light welters...
So, Floyd's camp was fulla caca!
Nice try with the inductive reasoning attempt but it won’t work my young friend. It won’t work because it’s filled with apples and oranges. Tommy Hearns did not carry his bone crusher power with him beyond 154. When he walked into the Kronk Gym he sported an amateur record of 166 fights with 155 with 11 ko's.
Manny taught him how to punch and sit down on his shots whereas the amateur system took advantage of his freak stature by pointing fights out because of the ridiculous scoring criteria.
His power peaked at 154 even though he could obviously still bang but he did grow out of his advantage in that regard.
Leonard had his power shut off at 154 so I'm a little perplexed with these comparisons. Roy Jones was a freak of nature and with him it was his speed and timing of his punches as much as it was about power. Gatti only fought in the 126 area in a few early fights and when he fought at 130 it was his size compared to the rest of the field the night of the fight. This helped him through 135 with those who would trade. By the time he got beat by Robinson back to back he was outgrowing 135. Even at 140 it was evident that he was a welter. Remember scale gate with poor Joey Gomache?
Pac is different then all of these guys. What he took with him as he moved up has not been seen in the history of the sport. His power increased exponentially and so did his speed, footwork and the whole enchilada. He didn't just beat the cream of the crop moving up, he destroyed them. Now maybe it was all legit after all he was never caught but they didn't test and let’s all not forget that Uinsane Bolt has never been caught and he's tested all the time. The speed of designer drugs is simply ahead of the curve and imo Manny found one that worked wonders. Like they are designed to do. Anybody who didn’t think questions would be asked and accusations leveled along the way had/has a bad case of ostrich syndrome.
And that leads to my final point. This whole PED thing is a red herring. Somebody provide me a list of those that would not test hot with relevant testing? Everybody thinks everybody is juicing so why is it even a topic? Furthermore, because of these antiquated testing requirements that in fact enable these cheaters to cheat is there even an opening for accusations? If anything this shit is systemic and if ever unmasked probably the norm.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
The speed of designer drugs is simply ahead of the curve
For sure, I think that's what it all boils down to. And I guess it makes sense if you think about it.
Who's on the PED side? High tech labs that cater to potential clients who make upwards of 5, 10, 20, even 50 million per year, who are willing to shell out big money for results, success, and a guarantee that they don't get caught.
Who's on the PED busting side? A government agency with a set budget, comprised of small-time politicians and ex-lawyers who are happy to have a cushy government job with a great pension and benefits.
Which group is going to be ahead of the curve? To the commissions' credit, they have started taking it a lot more seriously and are a lot more efficient now.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I always thought it was unfair the way Floyd and his camp used the PED propaganda bullshit on Manny. It was utter and complete BS.
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
He reckons that because Manny moved up in weight so spectacularly and UPPED his power to boot that Manny had to be using PED's. They all take supplements, but no way do I think Manny over-did the PED's.
Has anyone seen footage of Manny when he was a bantam back in the Philippines? He was too strong at that weight in any event, and evidence showed that he had Welterweight power at Bantamweight. It wasn't fair for him to stay at that weight and pummel guys into submission.
Also, it wasn't as if Manny was the ONLY fighter to carry his power up in weight.
Sugar Ray Leonard took his power well into the LH's from lightweight.... Roy Jones took his power- a little bit of it- right into the LH's and peaked... Hearns took his power well into the Cruiserweight from light welterweight... Artuto Gatti started out at featherweight and took power to at least the light welters...
So, Floyd's camp was fulla caca!
Nice try with the inductive reasoning attempt but it won’t work my young friend. It won’t work because it’s filled with apples and oranges. Tommy Hearns did not carry his bone crusher power with him beyond 154. When he walked into the Kronk Gym he sported an amateur record of 166 fights with 155 with
11 ko's.
Manny taught him how to punch and sit down on his shots whereas the amateur system took advantage of his freak stature by pointing fights out because of the ridiculous scoring criteria.
His power peaked at 154 even though he could obviously still bang but he did grow out of his advantage in that regard.
Leonard had his power shut off at 154 so I'm a little perplexed with these comparisons. Roy Jones was a freak of nature and with him it was his speed and timing of his punches as much as it was about power. Gatti only fought in the 126 area in a few early fights and when he fought at 130 it was his size compared to the rest of the field the night of the fight. This helped him through 135 with those who would trade. By the time he got beat by Robinson back to back he was outgrowing 135. Even at 140 it was evident that he was a welter. Remember scale gate with poor Joey Gomache?
Pac is different then all of these guys. What he took with him as he moved up has not been seen in the history of the sport. His power increased exponentially and so did his speed, footwork and the whole enchilada. He didn't just beat the cream of the crop moving up, he destroyed them. Now maybe it was all legit after all he was never caught but they didn't test and let’s all not forget that Uinsane Bolt has never been caught and he's tested all the time. The speed of designer drugs is simply ahead of the curve and imo Manny found one that worked wonders. Like they are designed to do. Anybody who didn’t think questions would be asked and accusations leveled along the way had/has a bad case of ostrich syndrome.
And that leads to my final point. This whole PED thing is a red herring. Somebody provide me a list of those that would not test hot with relevant testing? Everybody thinks everybody is juicing so why is it even a topic? Furthermore, because of these antiquated testing requirements that in fact enable these cheaters to cheat is there even an opening for accusations? If anything this shit is systemic and if ever unmasked probably the norm.
Well said, I never thought Manny was a Ped user but it's said around here a lot. If it's just accusations I usually disregard such things. If it is so, the truth usually has a way of getting out. Someone writes a tell all book or someone finds a paper trail.
This fight doesn't even need the usual bs from each camp, it sells itself.
Side note, I read Floyd used a 4,000 dollar gold pen to sign his contract, needed to use white gloves to hold it. I was kind of surprised it was only four grand, I've seen more expensive pens out there, maybe Floyd's broke.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Well said, I never thought Manny was a Ped user but it's said around here a lot. If it's just accusations I usually disregard such things. If it is so, the truth usually has a way of getting out. Someone writes a tell all book or someone finds a paper trail.
This fight doesn't even need the usual bs from each camp, it sells itself.
Side note, I read Floyd used a 4,000 dollar gold pen to sign his contract, needed to use white gloves to hold it. I was kind of surprised it was only four grand, I've seen more expensive pens out there, maybe Floyd's broke.
Good post.
See now I always thought he did and still think he might although he has seemed to have lost some of that rage and octane. Thing is, to me at least much of that view was because it looked so obvious to me. Its just as much in the how for me as it is the what. As cynical as I am at times I actually believe there are fighters that dont juice. I think its an option for many fighters at different times in their career and for justifiable reasons as crazy as that may sound. Suppose one has inside knowledge his opponent is or knows he will be outweighed the night of the fight by 10 or 20 pounds?
I dont think Hopkins juices or ever has. I think his longevity like Archie Moore is testimony to that not evidence of the opposite. There is also the way he fights. I mean if he was using the last 5 years for example he was buying shitty juice;D
I dont think Floyd has or would. I dont think guys like Calzaghe ever did either. Benn probably did. I'd bet Argentina has them as part of their program. America got the Nazi Rocket scientists and Argentina got the Nazi bio-chemists.
But the guys that I think are not or did not could be the ones knee deep. I knew Ben Johnson had to be doing something. Nobody even knew who Conte was at that time. Only that he was a high performance nutritionist specializing in track but Bens transformation was unbelievable. On the other hand I would have never suspected Carl Lewis with his wholesome mom and apple pie routine and his lanky body type and yet he ended up dirty.
We all know now that everyone in every sprint at a certain level is juicing and at some point in their career juiced to get there. Few exceptions but not to many running under 10 w/o them.
I look at boxing today in the same light although I think there is more room for exceptions because of some exceptional fighters like Floyd who literally grew up and were schooled in the gym. But in effect its his perfection that would cause others that had to face him to cheat. Tyson admits to using them his entire career after a certain point and that the choices were as plenty as a candy aisle.
I get on people that get caught these days because you have to be awfully stupid to get caught. Chances are the opponent who is shitting on the guy before or after the fight was cheating himself.
The hypocrisy also of the establishment making an example of someone cause they had some thc in their piss really gets me angry. This same establishment which includes broadcasters, announcers, governing bodies and promoters know full well of steroid use and do nothing about it. It factors into their bottom line. Juice equals ko's and ko's equal ratings, ppv sales, salaries, salaries and salaries.
I just assume for the most part that everyone is chemically enhanced and that makes it an even playing field.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Understood but perhaps you might clarify something . In the interviews I've seen Tyson admitted to using Narcotics during fights later in his career and using fake or others Urine to pass tests but he fell short of admitting to peds. One could certainly argue certain narcotics could be a type of ped but my experience with them is quite the opposite. You obviously heard different and I'm just curious as to what and where you heard. Sorry, a bit off topic but still on the ped track.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Understood but perhaps you might clarify something . In the interviews I've seen Tyson admitted to using Narcotics during fights later in his career and using fake or others Urine to pass tests but he fell short of admitting to peds. One could certainly argue certain narcotics could be a type of ped but my experience with them is quite the opposite. You obviously heard different and I'm just curious as to what and where you heard. Sorry, a bit off topic but still on the ped track.
He's never named designer roids but "Peds" can encompass everything from a store shelf to a pharmacist, to a street corner to the scientist. When asked what he took on many occasions he has said "name it" When he was with that hag Givens they had him on downers like lithium and other shit cause he was diagnosed psychotic and a lifelong manic depressive. One she was curbed the King years really started and the world became his oyster.
Even sudafed is considered a ped. For Tyson can you imagine him already in a rage snorting a 1/4 gram up each side before he entered the ring? He was probably whacked on something for part of the day almost every day of his prime years. And he's also a poster child for how the establishment
practices there end justifies the means policy. The guy was earning on average 20 and 30 million a fight for a minute or two worth of work and exhibiting rage that until such time was never witnessed.
A lot of people got rich off Tyson and it would not surprise me to learn that even network execs ensured that he had a steady supply of Peruvian blow. You mentioned narcotics. Hundreds of narcotics appear in one form or another on PED lists.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Nice try with the inductive reasoning attempt but it won’t work my young friend. It won’t work because it’s filled with apples and oranges. Tommy Hearns did not carry his bone crusher power with him beyond 154. When he walked into the Kronk Gym he sported an amateur record of 166 fights with 155 with 11 ko's.
Manny taught him how to punch and sit down on his shots whereas the amateur system took advantage of his freak stature by pointing fights out because of the ridiculous scoring criteria.
His power peaked at 154 even though he could obviously still bang but he did grow out of his advantage in that regard.
Leonard had his power shut off at 154 so I'm a little perplexed with these comparisons. Roy Jones was a freak of nature and with him it was his speed and timing of his punches as much as it was about power. Gatti only fought in the 126 area in a few early fights and when he fought at 130 it was his size compared to the rest of the field the night of the fight. This helped him through 135 with those who would trade. By the time he got beat by Robinson back to back he was outgrowing 135. Even at 140 it was evident that he was a welter. Remember scale gate with poor Joey Gomache?
Pac is different then all of these guys. What he took with him as he moved up has not been seen in the history of the sport. His power increased exponentially and so did his speed, footwork and the whole enchilada. He didn't just beat the cream of the crop moving up, he destroyed them. Now maybe it was all legit after all he was never caught but they didn't test and let’s all not forget that Uinsane Bolt has never been caught and he's tested all the time. The speed of designer drugs is simply ahead of the curve and imo Manny found one that worked wonders. Like they are designed to do. Anybody who didn’t think questions would be asked and accusations leveled along the way had/has a bad case of ostrich syndrome.
And that leads to my final point. This whole PED thing is a red herring. Somebody provide me a list of those that would not test hot with relevant testing? Everybody thinks everybody is juicing so why is it even a topic? Furthermore, because of these antiquated testing requirements that in fact enable these cheaters to cheat is there even an opening for accusations? If anything this shit is systemic and if ever unmasked probably the norm.
Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".
Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".
Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.
Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.
PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".
Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.
Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.
PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.
There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.
I don't know that "they don't want it", as much as it may be that they just find it's too much trouble and too costly to pursue this adequate testing ideal. They probably say, "aww, the hell with it... everybody's doing it anyway", and throw their hands up in the air. You're right on point when you state that it's creating a situation where if you don't dope you'll eventually get beaten by somebody who does.
Eventually this may result in a situation that may very well threaten the sport. Imagine everybody on PEDs, where everyone's strength, endurance, power, speed is incremented by "X" amount. Unfortunately, the brain and its cushioning is the one thing that does not get upgraded by PED use. So boxers are continually subjecting themselves to harder punches without the opponent suffering the fatigue that a non-user might suffer. This will undoubtedly result in more spectacular knockouts, more brain damage... maybe even more deaths.
I'm a fan of both JMM and Pac. But I can't help but think about JMM's KO of Pac, and the KO's that Pac himself has administered. JMM is a terrific boxer and a surefire first ballot HOF'er. But the JMM that laid out Pac seemed different than the previous version of JMM. More muscular... more powerful. Now... I'm not making any accusations, but you cannot help but think about the possibility. Yes, Pac was moving in at the time of the punch... but c'mon. He went down as if shot. Regarding Pac, as you yourself have mentioned.... Pac moved up several divisions in weight while becoming faster and more powerful. Weights and training... maybe. But again one cannot help but think about the possibility.
At this point I'm not condemning anyone, but rather throwing a thought out there that should be viewed as a caution to those who police and protect the sport. If, as you say, everyone's juicing.... the trend will only increase, as fighters seek that coveted edge over their opponents. It becomes a contest of PEDs. Which ones are less detectable.... which ones give me more power than the others. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the only way to truly protect the sport and the fighters is to quit the hand-wringing over the widespread use and new masking techniques, and spend the money necessary to combat its use.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykdadamaja
I always thought it was unfair the way Floyd and his camp used the PED propaganda bullshit on Manny. It was utter and complete BS.
I would have sued Floyd. Truly.
He reckons that because Manny moved up in weight so spectacularly and UPPED his power to boot that Manny had to be using PED's. They all take supplements, but no way do I think Manny over-did the PED's.
Has anyone seen footage of Manny when he was a bantam back in the Philippines? He was too strong at that weight in any event, and evidence showed that he had Welterweight power at Bantamweight. It wasn't fair for him to stay at that weight and pummel guys into submission.
Also, it wasn't as if Manny was the ONLY fighter to carry his power up in weight.
Sugar Ray Leonard took his power well into the LH's from lightweight.... Roy Jones took his power- a little bit of it- right into the LH's and peaked... Hearns took his power well into the Cruiserweight from light welterweight... Artuto Gatti started out at featherweight and took power to at least the light welters...
So, Floyd's camp was fulla caca!
Nice try with the inductive reasoning attempt but it won’t work my young friend. It won’t work because it’s filled with apples and oranges. Tommy Hearns did not carry his bone crusher power with him beyond 154. When he walked into the Kronk Gym he sported an amateur record of 166 fights with 155 with
11 ko's.
Manny taught him how to punch and sit down on his shots whereas the amateur system took advantage of his freak stature by pointing fights out because of the ridiculous scoring criteria.
His power peaked at 154 even though he could obviously still bang but he did grow out of his advantage in that regard.
Leonard had his power shut off at 154 so I'm a little perplexed with these comparisons. Roy Jones was a freak of nature and with him it was his speed and timing of his punches as much as it was about power. Gatti only fought in the 126 area in a few early fights and when he fought at 130 it was his size compared to the rest of the field the night of the fight. This helped him through 135 with those who would trade. By the time he got beat by Robinson back to back he was outgrowing 135. Even at 140 it was evident that he was a welter. Remember scale gate with poor Joey Gomache?
Pac is different then all of these guys. What he took with him as he moved up has not been seen in the history of the sport. His power increased exponentially and so did his speed, footwork and the whole enchilada. He didn't just beat the cream of the crop moving up, he destroyed them. Now maybe it was all legit after all he was never caught but they didn't test and let’s all not forget that Uinsane Bolt has never been caught and he's tested all the time. The speed of designer drugs is simply ahead of the curve and imo Manny found one that worked wonders. Like they are designed to do. Anybody who didn’t think questions would be asked and accusations leveled along the way had/has a bad case of ostrich syndrome.
And that leads to my final point. This whole PED thing is a red herring. Somebody provide me a list of those that would not test hot with relevant testing? Everybody thinks everybody is juicing so why is it even a topic? Furthermore, because of these antiquated testing requirements that in fact enable these cheaters to cheat is there even an opening for accusations? If anything this shit is systemic and if ever unmasked probably the norm.
Of course the PED issue is a red herring. But I don't agree with your assessment of the power issue with regard to the other fighters mentioned... and, I would add a few more fighters to boot:
Zab Judah
James Toney
Terry Norris
Hector Camacho- to some extent, even though he never was a true ko artist.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
Pactards are none too bright.
And Flo Mos are intelligent???? C'mon man no sane intelligent person buys Floyd's BS
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
I've seen a 110 lbs 15 year old girl in a rage, rip a door off its hinges with one hand and throw is down a flight of stairs. No drugs in her system. She had an autoimmune condition that caused excessive antibodies in her brain. The labs could not detect anything in her system because there was nothing there that was developed in standard test to know what to look for. They only found the antibodies years later because a lab technician developed a test that looked for the antibodies. There is only one lab that can do it.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".
Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.
Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.
PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.
There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.
I don't know that "they don't want it", as much as it may be that they just find it's too much trouble and too costly to pursue this adequate testing ideal. They probably say, "aww, the hell with it... everybody's doing it anyway", and throw their hands up in the air. You're right on point when you state that it's creating a situation where if you don't dope you'll eventually get beaten by somebody who does.
Eventually this may result in a situation that may very well threaten the sport. Imagine everybody on PEDs, where everyone's strength, endurance, power, speed is incremented by "X" amount. Unfortunately, the brain and its cushioning is the one thing that does not get upgraded by PED use. So boxers are continually subjecting themselves to harder punches without the opponent suffering the fatigue that a non-user might suffer. This will undoubtedly result in more spectacular knockouts, more brain damage... maybe even more deaths.
I'm a fan of both JMM and Pac. But I can't help but think about JMM's KO of Pac, and the KO's that Pac himself has administered. JMM is a terrific boxer and a surefire first ballot HOF'er. But the JMM that laid out Pac seemed different than the previous version of JMM. More muscular... more powerful. Now... I'm not making any accusations, but you cannot help but think about the possibility. Yes, Pac was moving in at the time of the punch... but c'mon. He went down as if shot. Regarding Pac, as you yourself have mentioned.... Pac moved up several divisions in weight while becoming faster and more powerful. Weights and training... maybe. But again one cannot help but think about the possibility.
At this point I'm not condemning anyone, but rather throwing a thought out there that should be viewed as a caution to those who police and protect the sport. If, as you say, everyone's juicing.... the trend will only increase, as fighters seek that coveted edge over their opponents. It becomes a contest of PEDs. Which ones are less detectable.... which ones give me more power than the others. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the only way to truly protect the sport and the fighters is to quit the hand-wringing over the widespread use and new masking techniques, and spend the money necessary to combat its use.
The fact that we could debate whether certain fighters have or have not and which verging fighters may or may not be pretty much makes my case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be pissed off about it but we shouldn't cherry pick either given the probable status quo. My beef is that there is a system that enables cheating. Not only does it actually enable it but it condones it by its own lack of action. We then shit on the fighter that gets busted while earlier enjoying the fruits of his labour. Imagine going to a world track meet and watching a 12 second 100 meteres?
We are about to watch a fight in which 1 of the fighters juiced over a certain period and still could be. I think I'm not alone in that belief but based on the fact that he is about to most likely make 100 million dollars for his next fight I suppose you would have to ask him if it was worth it given the present testing regimes.
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Re: Floyd camp's PED propaganda!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".
Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.
Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.
PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.
There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.
I don't know that "they don't want it", as much as it may be that they just find it's too much trouble and too costly to pursue this adequate testing ideal.
I don't think anyone really benefits from people getting busted using steroids, other than athletes competing who aren't using steroids.
The leagues/promoters/ect benefit because they get better performances by superior athletes. Look at what steroids did to the game of baseball: it was never more exciting than in the 90s when Sosa and McGwire, two roided up meatheads, were chasing the home run record. They allow athletes to compete at a higher level and for longer into their career, which means substantially more money.
Fans get to watch and enjoy the higher level of athletic competition, and they get to see their favourite athletes have much longer careers thanks to chemical enhancement.
The athletes who use benefit because it allows them to compete at that higher level and longer, making much more money for longer periods of time.
And at the end of the day, all this extra money brought in from steroid use benefits the commissions, because they are taking a % of the gross.
What people really want is the illusion that all their heroes aren't cheating and the playing field is truly level. So for decades the commissions said "hey, everyone's clean, we got them to piss into a cup on a set date and the sample was clean, they're drug tested so everyone go about their business and keep the money coming in." Now finally that illusion has disappeared with all these steroid labs being busted and all this talk about undetectable designer drugs, and guys like Lance Armstrong coming out and admitting he cheated for 20 years without being caught... so now they are scrambling to build up that illusion again.
