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In their primes at similar weights who do you think would win? I am a big fan of both but lean toward Toney one minute and then change my mind. Can someone more intelligent than I give me their input? Which most likely includes most people and their pets.
James Toney UD
B Hop got beat by a great middleweight in Roy Jones no disgrace there and he could argue Hopkins was inexperienced but even a peak Hopkins would lose to Roy.
Toney was being outboxed by Nunn, who is nothing like B Hop and Toney had some awful performances such as Tiberia.
Best for best and peak for peak I would say Toney.
It would be a great fight with all the moves, slips and parrying from a text book of boxing skills!
Toney knocked Nunn out.....fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Hops has had some awful performances himself.
Toney always had trouble with mobile boxers who maintained a consistently high pace like Nunn, Roy, Reggie Johnson and Montell Griffin to name a few. James also had issues with busy/volume guys with solid chins like Drake Thadzi, Dave Tiberi and Vassily Jirov.
Many of the posters on here think of the Ancient Hop who fought Cloud, Dawson, Calzaghe...etc. The guy who no longer had the big punch or stamina and relied on tricks and boxing intelligence to win decisions. The Hop we are discussing isn't that Hop, he's the Executioner who dominated Tito and displayed great movement, ATG boxing ability and ring generalship, and the killer instinct and ATG stamina to close the show.
Prime vs prime Hop is too mobile, has too good a chin, is too smart, too good of a ring general and too busy to lose to James. Hop lost to Roy while he was green and approaching his prime, but even that wasn't a blow out (he performed MUCH BETTER vs Roy than Toney did). Toney puts up a good fight and has his moments but loses a decision to Hop based on activity and ring generalship.
Hopkins. At least he waited until 40+ to time out rounds :-X. Ok that was cheap and two of my all time favs here. But Hopkins was too sharp and would work Toneys often flat feet and sneak 6 inch counters. Hopkins had the best of both worlds then
I'd go Toney by UD.
I'm a Toney fan but I think 7 times out of 10, he beats Toney.
Hopkins was a better thinker than Toney (Toney was just so comfortable and well drilled) so would refuse to play ball and let Toney use his skill set (traps etc..). He'd find an ugly way to win.
If Toney won though, it would be beautiful to watch :cool:
Toney was losing the fight dickhead and Hopkins never had a performance as bad as Honey did against Tiberia. Anyway I said Toney would win.Quote:
Originally Posted by corvetteToney knocked Nunn out.....fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Hops has had some awful performances himself.
Toney scored the KO dickhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterToney was losing the fight dickhead and Hopkins never had a performance as bad as Toney did against Tiberia. Anyway I said Toney would win.Quote:
Originally Posted by corvetteToney knocked Nunn out.....fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Hops has had some awful performances himself.
Behind on points don't mean shit when you put a mofo to sleep.
Toney never dove out the ring and played hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterToney was losing the fight dickhead and Hopkins never had a performance as bad as Honey did against Tiberia. Anyway I said Toney would win.Quote:
Originally Posted by corvetteToney knocked Nunn out.....fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Hops has had some awful performances himself.
Being behind on points don't mean shit when you put a mofo to sleep.
Corvette why am I arguing with you when I agree Toney would win? I was making a point that Toney would be out boxed at times. You dumb retard.
This has always been one of those fights I could see either way. Either Hopkins keeps Toney at bay with the jab, and he ties up and mauls his way to a close win, or Toney's shoulder roll and counter prove too much for B-Hop and send him on the run. The style matchup kind of reminds me of Walcott vs Charles, although B-Hop isn't as smooth as Ezzard was.
I think Toney wins by decision more often than not.
Nice comparison ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Although just to attempt to skew your perception a little; Walcott was the more 'deceptive' of the two, with Ezzard being more of an 'honest' fighter.
With Hopkins and Toney, it would have been slightly different.
Maybe Archie Moore would have been a better comparison for ToneyQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusNice comparison ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Although just to attempt to skew your perception a little; Walcott was the more 'deceptive' of the two, with Ezzard being more of an 'honest' fighter.
With Hopkins and Toney, it would have been slightly different.
James Toney was trained by Bill Miller. Bill Miller used Ezzard Charles as his teaching tool; Toney was brought along worshipping at the altar of Ezzard.
At 160 Toney and Hopkins were at their physical peaks. Toney combined his smarts and physicality best in the Hembrick fights and at cruiser (I don't think he tried to beat Thadzi). Hopkins peaked before Trinidad.
I think Toney is the better fighter by far. Best for best he beats Hopkins every time.
I think if Toney was forced to come forward like Roy Jones forced him to, there is no way he would beat Hopkins. However, if Hopkins would come forward, then JT should have beaten him.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
What's with this no way he beats Hopkins nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by NVSeminI think if Toney was forced to come forward like Roy Jones forced him to, there is no way he would beat Hopkins. However, if Hopkins would come forward, then JT should have beaten him.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
B-Hop ain't shit compared to James Toney.
Yep.....Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I never had that problem. I never liked either of them but started respecting Hop after his dismantling of Tito and the rest is history. Tony was never that good. Showed some nice highlight reel segments but he was a dud at middleweight. If legacy was mouth he'd be an ATG. Hopkins takes him apart. Tiberi schooled him and so did Nunn until he fell asleep after having his way with him for almost 11 rounds. Sure he managed a draw against Mike and then a pts win against a declining version but he just scraped by Reggie Johnson previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by frasd
Flashes of brilliance but a total lack of discipline and chalk full of unwarranted hubris. The polar opposite of Hopkins. Add to that Hops ring generalship and technical understanding of his craft and what we have here is a thrashing.
That is harsh on Toney he was very skilled for age. Naturally brilliant and he beat some good fighters and produced great performances in quick succession old school. What is not to love?Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitI never had that problem. I never liked either of them but started respecting Hop after his dismantling of Tito and the rest is history. Tony was never that good. Showed some nice highlight reel segments but he was a dud at middleweight. If legacy was mouth he'd be an ATG. Hopkins takes him apart. Tiberi schooled him and so did Nunn until he fell asleep after having his way with him for almost 11 rounds. Sure he managed a draw against Mike and then a pts win against a declining version but he just scraped by Reggie Johnson previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by frasd
Flashes of brilliance but a total lack of discipline and chalk full of unwarranted hubris. The polar opposite of Hopkins. Add to that Hops ring generalship and technical understanding of his craft and what we have here is a thrashing.
Not really harsh at all. There is little doubt that the man had talent. He just never did much with it and specifically at middleweight yet here he is being matched against perhaps one of the top 3 to 5 that ever lived at 160. Hypotheticals are cool and all but Toney never did much at middle and dare I say looked regular.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterThat is harsh on Toney he was very skilled for age. Naturally brilliant and he beat some good fighters and produced great performances in quick succession old school. What is not to love?Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitI never had that problem. I never liked either of them but started respecting Hop after his dismantling of Tito and the rest is history. Tony was never that good. Showed some nice highlight reel segments but he was a dud at middleweight. If legacy was mouth he'd be an ATG. Hopkins takes him apart. Tiberi schooled him and so did Nunn until he fell asleep after having his way with him for almost 11 rounds. Sure he managed a draw against Mike and then a pts win against a declining version but he just scraped by Reggie Johnson previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by frasd
Flashes of brilliance but a total lack of discipline and chalk full of unwarranted hubris. The polar opposite of Hopkins. Add to that Hops ring generalship and technical understanding of his craft and what we have here is a thrashing.
He was disputed middleweight and supermiddleweight champion and for 2-3 year period he was brilliant. He did have a couple of bad performances but overall he was a throwback to the great boxers with his style and fighting frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitNot really harsh at all. There is little doubt that the man had talent. He just never did much with it and specifically at middleweight yet here he is being matched against perhaps one of the top 3 to 5 that ever lived at 160. Hypotheticals are cool and all but Toney never did much at middle and dare I say looked regular.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterThat is harsh on Toney he was very skilled for age. Naturally brilliant and he beat some good fighters and produced great performances in quick succession old school. What is not to love?Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitI never had that problem. I never liked either of them but started respecting Hop after his dismantling of Tito and the rest is history. Tony was never that good. Showed some nice highlight reel segments but he was a dud at middleweight. If legacy was mouth he'd be an ATG. Hopkins takes him apart. Tiberi schooled him and so did Nunn until he fell asleep after having his way with him for almost 11 rounds. Sure he managed a draw against Mike and then a pts win against a declining version but he just scraped by Reggie Johnson previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by frasd
Flashes of brilliance but a total lack of discipline and chalk full of unwarranted hubris. The polar opposite of Hopkins. Add to that Hops ring generalship and technical understanding of his craft and what we have here is a thrashing.