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Particularly the first 3-4 rounds. He was so uncharacteristic and apprehensive, and it ultimately cost him the fight.
I don't think he was surprised by Leonard or was underestimating him either, but the magnitude of the event had gotten to him, and it affected his performance early on.
I see it quite the opposite. I think Hagler severely underestimated Leonard and was severely over confident that he would waste the 3 year retired ex welter. so much so that he gave Leonard glove choice, ring size and agreed to 12 rounds instead of 15 which in hindsight most likely was the difference as Rays legs were gone at the end of 12. Hagler further showed his arrogance or blind brawn by coming out right handed for the first couple of rounds. And again that also cost him over 12. He lost the first 2 rounds. He certainly made more money in that fight then any other but if he was not extremely confident he would have never agreed to those things or come out orthodox.
Agreed. Add on that he was set to retire and had checked out mentally. The only thing that lead him to fight on with the problems in his relationship was that it was his dream fight. A fight he was all too sure he would win. And he thought he was winning, the judges thought otherwise. Hagler could have gone 20 rounds, Ray just wanted to steal 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
~ Poor Decision by the Hagler Team ~
First and foremost, agreeing to fight in Las Vegas.
That was Ray Leonard's town. They loved the 'fancy dancer'.
So it's plain, Haglar got to Haglar!
I think you're on to something.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Excellent analysis.........
But you did spell .... H-A-G-L-E-R ... incorrectly, so you lose 'points' on the above statement.
Leonard would not have taken the fight had all his stipulations on gloves, ring size, number of rounds etc...not been met. There simply would not have been a fight and therefore no huge payday for Hagler had he not agreed to all Leonard's wishes.
Could be a number of factors. After the Mugabi fight and maybe even earlier, Hagler was thinking about retiring, which is the first sign that a fighter's heart isn't 100% in it anymore like it used to be. Then you have a guy coming back from a 3 year retirement, a welterweight who had retired because he felt he "didn't have it anymore" and of course was forced into a medical retirement before that... and here Hagler is an absolute monster at MW, just destroying everyone he puts hands on... it's pretty easy to get overconfident there. And of course you have to give huge credit to SRL, who fought a great fight.
In the end, I have to go back to Hagler's decision to fight orthodox for the first 2 rounds and essentially give those rounds away. If he had fought southpaw and won those two rounds, he picks up the SD. If he won at least one of them, it's a majority draw, he keeps his title and there's probably a rematch. To this day I wonder what the fuck he was thinking to not come out southpaw.
Great insight on both sides. I gotta agree with your take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepwalker
1. There is a book called In the corner. Trainers talk about their art.
Haglar's trainers (Petronelli Brothers) stated Haglar gave away the 1st 4 rounds.
2. There is a documentary I think HBO's Legendary Nights the tale of Haglar-Leonard-where Ray stated he took Marvin out to dinner (after the Mugabi fight) . Marvin told him he was ready to retire, that he felt he could even cut easy at that point of his career.
My take: Hagler took that fight after being somewhat coerced into the idea of how much more money he could make. More than he'd ever made & a chance to beat Ray.
Haglar's heart was into it. Doesn't mean he would've won if it was-rather Ray pushed him into it, once Ray had EVERY SINGLE card stacke on his side.
http://www.amazon.com/In-Corner-Grea.../dp/0688094465
This isn't the docu where I thought Ray stated it- but around 13 min or so it does state how Haglar really was ready to retire.
Stilla geat documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZI-OOox3oA
Hagler fought the wrong stance for the early rounds and gave the rounds away. That ultimately cost him the fight.
The only other time Hagler fought conservatively was against Duran.
I think his inability to adjust got to him. SRL saw that in the Mugabi fight and felt he could frustrate Hagler with last second flurries and shoe shining. SRL was correct.
That & the fact that Ray could take a punch. Rounds 9-10 Marvelous cut the ring off, marvelously! Trapped Ray on the ropes- Damn Ray earned his manhood in those 2 rounds alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Maybe the mental cards, but physically he was a welterweight coming off of a 3 year retirement (his second) and fighting a top 3 ATG middleweight with 52 KO's in 62 wins. It was a ballsy move by SRL no matter how you look at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
To this day, SRL still doesn't get enough credit for his power and "bruteness".
People still view him as some type of feather-fisted pretty boy who relied only on speed and danced his way to victory most of the time.
He was the prototype Welterweight.
I get derided for what I am about to say, but I understand: SRL was overated as a boxer, but under rated as a brawler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepwalker
He had to fight to beat Benitez, Hearns & even lalonde. Rarely did he outbox his foes. I guess because he was the heir to the so-called great Ali- pretty boy who was articulate, he was misconstrued as the consummate boxer. He could crack & he could take it.
Speed, Movement and Fast-Hands really bothered Marvin Hagler.
See his 1st-Bout with Willie 'The Worm' Monroe, who gave Marvin an 'old fashioned'
ass-whipping in Philadelphia.
Damn near won every Round, and had Marvin talking to himself.
One thing for sure: Hagler is, was and will be a very insecure guy
I like to use Hagler as a counter example when people put too much hope in boxing like
self development tool, boxing develops confidence, etc. Bullshit. Look at Hagler, yea, he was
a tough motherf..cker, but confident? never
I'll do better, I promise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomI think you're on to something.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Excellent analysis.........
But you did spell .... H-A-G-L-E-R ... incorrectly, so you lose 'points' on the above statement.
I feel like Hagler won the fight, but was robbed on the scorecards. That being said, I feel a few factors resulted in aray lasting the whole fight and putting on a performance that at least kept the fight close.
1. Hagler was always a slow starter (with the exception of the Hearns fight), usually taking the first few rounds to figure his opponent out before stepping on the gas and dominating late. He failed to adjust his pace for the 12 round limit.
2. Hagler's ego was legendary, and that hurt him in numerous ways. He wanted to prove that he was so superior to Ray and decided to outbox him from a conventional stance (and failed). He also anticipated an easy night due to Leonard being smaller and shot. Finally, he gave Leonard every demand that mattered (ring, glove size...etc), because he demanded the larger purse as champ.
3. Marvin was past his best, and had left a lot of himself in the ring vs Hearns and Mugabi. Ray fought a brilliant fight and capitalized though, so he does deserve a ton of credit for his performance that night.
~ I'll make a note of it. ~Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedI'll do better, I promise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomI think you're on to something.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Excellent analysis.........
But you did spell .... H-A-G-L-E-R ... incorrectly, so you lose 'points' on the above statement.
I'm a huge Hagler fan but I don't know if you can call robbery either way. Personally I had it a draw at 6 rounds apiece but it could easily be argued 115-113 for either guy. I think it was way too close of a fight to call robbery.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Hagler's reaction prior to the decision was a clear indicator that he felt he may have lost the fight. Even Leonard mentioned it as well. Hagler started doing a Fred Astaire routine after the bell sounded. Very strangely uncharacteristic of him. As if he was trying to convince himself that he won and deflecting his worries by dancing. That's how I saw it.
All of his 'I was robbed' talk afterwards was to protect his ego. Deep down he knows he lost and Leonard knows that he knows. It's probably eating at Hagler to this day.
Marvin Hagler
Upon hearing the Decision in Las Vegas.
"You mean I lost. Only in Las Vegas."
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...jykGlmcvKHqm4g
Leonard was a quality boxer who could dig deep and brawl with the best. Leonard had a great chin and he could adjust his style to a brawler if required.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeI get derided for what I am about to say, but I understand: SRL was overated as a boxer, but under rated as a brawler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepwalker
He had to fight to beat Benitez, Hearns & even lalonde. Rarely did he outbox his foes. I guess because he was the heir to the so-called great Ali- pretty boy who was articulate, he was misconstrued as the consummate boxer. He could crack & he could take it.
What do you think of his fight with Bennie Brisco. I was shocked to see Haglar back peddling & moving. Something very rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
Hagler was a boxer when he was younger and maybe Briscoe was intimidating so Marvin out boxed him instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeWhat do you think of his fight with Bennie Brisco. I was shocked to see Haglar back peddling & moving. Something very rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
Marvin won with 'room-to-spare'.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTraeWhat do you think of his fight with Bennie Brisco. I was shocked to see Haglar back peddling & moving. Something very rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
But Bennie made Marvin work hard for the win.
Don't forget about the 'head-butt' that opened a cut over Marvin's eye. Marvin had to
re-adjust his style after that.
If you could back him up (and few could), he had issues. Duran did it and almost beat him