What would you say are the weaknesses of Floyd's shoulder roll?
What are some ways to get around it? Yes, I know the shoulder roll isn't Floyd's only weapon, but it is a big part of his game.
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What would you say are the weaknesses of Floyd's shoulder roll?
What are some ways to get around it? Yes, I know the shoulder roll isn't Floyd's only weapon, but it is a big part of his game.
48 have failed to penetrate that shoulder roll.
Fact is every fighter whom has used it to its maximum potential have all been accredited as great defensive fighters.
The guy who really did a good job was Maidana in the first fight. Floyd's hardwired to know what's coming and Maidana did a lot of tricky shit to throw Mayweather off. If you watch those fights close (especially the first one) he would use feints and double up on certain punches and get Floyd to roll and then attack when Floyd was stationary. He'd throw a right, Floyd would roll anticipating a left hook, and Maidana would double up the right and then throw the left when Floyd had squared himself up.
Again though it's very easy to say what might work, it's another thing to go out and do it. Floyd has the best defence in the history of the sport, and with his speed and accuracy he makes guys second guess themselves before punching.
Two styles/weapons have proven effective (to some degree) against Floyd's shoulder roll: 1. Throwing caution to the wind and muscling Floyd on the inside while throwing numerous body shots and 2. An effective jab with the threat of a big punch.
Castillo and Maidana both proved very effective against Floyd by muscling him to the ropes and abusing his body while throwing a high volume of punches. This is much easier said than done however, as evidenced in Floyd's fights vs. Hatton and Jesus Chavez. A fighter needs to have brass balls/strong willpower to assume the necessary risk of exhaustion and getting caught with Floyd's counters to implement this style effectively. They also need to be stronger than Floyd but fast enough to close the distance and force Floyd to the ropes. The trouble Floyd had with Maidana n Castillo is the main reason I think guys like Duran, Pryor and Armstrong beat Floyd.
Oscar had success utilizing his jab from the outside, while his left hook kept Floyd tentative until Oscar gassed late in the fight. Cotto and Manny both had some success utilizing their jabs against Floyd, but neither committed to the jab or had the success that Oscar did. The Oscar fight in particular based on the trouble Floyd has with the jab is the main reason I see Floyd getting beaten by guys like Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns.
Ray Leonard once said that he had success aiming his right at the top/exposed portion of Floyd Sr.'s head and would've done the same vs. Floyd Jr. That being said, understanding we are only talking shoulder roll here, Floyd DOES do MUCH more defensively than just that shoulder roll (slip, parry, duck, lateral movement, feint, set traps...etc.) and is PHENOMENAL at adapting during the fight, so I'm not sure that there is any one style/weapon that can beat him/his defense. I would've liked to have seen Floyd vs. prime Oscar and Mosely, Kostya Tszyu and Paul Williams (NOT saying he ducked ANY of those guys, just think those are GREAT match ups) to see if they could've figured his style out.
I can see prime Oscar and Mosley (both whom Floyd called out in their primes and both whom turned him down BTW), and I can kind of see Tyszu, but I don't think Paul Williams had anything to offer Floyd. Not saying Paul wasn't good, I'm a big fan of his, I just think stylistically he wouldn't give Floyd much of a problem.
Left hooks to the body...maybe some hooker cuts...ala Razor Ruddock and Saad Mohammed. Pressure breaks pipes...Floyd had trouble with Castillo, Oscars jab...Augustus...Cotto a few rounds. Canelo could have done better if he wasn't so scared to get caught with the right hand counter.
I never really study shoulder roll, but facts are
1. Leonard showed the way
2. Oscar, Miadana and Castilio were quite effective
3. This is serious: Floyd faced many punchers, people with good one or two signature punches, but he never really faced a real flurry puncher who had the technique & power of Tyson or SRR or SRL, I mean this:
http://gfycat.com/WellmadeAlertFattaileddunnart
Oscar / Castilio had the technique, but lacked power
Maidana 1 had the power, but technique wise he was sloppy
Looking back at Floyd's record its not that impressive in hindsight. A lot of past their prime fighters. Floyd is now past his prime, it's gonna be interesting the next few fights if he fights real competition...not A Mere Con ...I think he should fight Crawford.
People never mention zab was very effective against Floyd at the beginning of the fight. How he did it was not engage on the inside. The shoulder roll is more effective when people are throwing multiple punches at you. Zab is a one really fast punch kind of a fighter. Floyd had a tough time timing his shots. Zab even knocked him down with a right (I know it wasn't an official knock down but we all know it was). I think Floyd had success later in the fight partly because he is great at adapting during the fight and partly because zab can't fight well past 4 rounds (which Floyd admitted).
So I agree that being EFFECTIVELY aggressive is a great way to overcome the shoulder roll but it's also effective to nullify it by not giving the opponent much opportunity to utilize it. it's kind of like not giving a counter puncher a chance to counter by not throwing many punches and picking the right time and place to throw.
No he was not. First few rounds of "reconnaissance" do not count.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
You may be right, but I was thinking Paul's size/length, aggression and volume might trouble Floyd. When he fought Winky, Paul was brilliant at dictating the distance and keep Wright at the end of his punches where he would have to try and jump in to counter. Floyd was more mobile than Winky, but I still see this style giving him some issues. The other factor is that once Floyd figured this style out, Willliams would have the mentality/ability to take the fight inside and try to outhustle Floyd with sheer volume. Not saying it's a sure thing or even fight (Floyd's still the big favorite), just saying I see that scenario as a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
I was amazed at how grungy Maidana was yet he was still able to keep the fight close.Quote:
Originally Posted by NVSemin
I'm sure this had to drive ATGs like JCC and Duran nuts if they were watching
Great and insightful posts now for me to lower the intellectual discussion and say that B Hop, James Toney also used it and was stolen from Jersey Joe Walcott who had it mastered.
The defence does not work with southpaws as much which is why Floyd does not like facing them and gets hurt with the good ones he faces.
Tall fighters with jabs can pick Floyd off and it has no value against them.
Shorter fighters should jab to the body or feint and then throw the combinations left hooks and looping fight hands anywhere so long as they land on his body.
Punches below the belt and kidney also help antagonise the fraud especially now that he is older and has no legs.
You do have to watch out for his counter right hand which is a natural attack and leave yourself open to it. However Floyd does not punch hard and it is worth the sacrifice to get your punches in.
Mastered, my ass. Floyd, James Toney and Bhop would have rolled that Marciano Susie Q and came back with an uppercut.
The only thing that rolled was Walcott's eyes into the back of his head.
Mike McCallum used it. Alexis Arguello, too. Eddie Futch taught it to every fighter he trained.
If couple of dozen world class fighters haven't managed to find a weakness in it, i doubt anybody on Saddo's will ;D
Nah man all you have to do is jab and just keep throwing punches. If you keep throwing punches and never stop he'll just keep rolling and defending and you can win a UD.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Simple ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNah man all you have to do is jab and just keep throwing punches. If you keep throwing punches and never stop he'll just keep rolling and defending and you can win a UD.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
It is but the fighters just do not listen to the saddo game plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoSimple ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNah man all you have to do is jab and just keep throwing punches. If you keep throwing punches and never stop he'll just keep rolling and defending and you can win a UD.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
I think plenty of world class fighters have found weaknesses in it, it's just that Floyd is extremely versatile and does many things great in that ring. Broner is a prime example. He uses the shoulder roll very effectively. His problem is that he doesn't use all the other weapons/abilities/assets that Floyd does do guys figure him out and land clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
It isn't optimum to use this defense with your legs as wide as Broner keeps his. The foundation is turning your weight to avoid the punch and to counter; a wide stance slows that down.
Had some success against it tonight this way: Jab to make him slip the punch, he obviously slips so it goes behind his head. (Slipping the other way opens up his shoulder) You pivot to the right right away- his slip exposes his lower left rib cage briefly, and you want to hit that spot as hard as you possibly can with a right hand. Real short and you throw it on the pivot to get all your weight turned on it. Then come right back with a left hook.
there were cab drivers, who could not fix taxy's and could not race.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict
Shoulder rolling means your feet are relatively static... so that right there is somewhat of a weakness unless you are Mayweather
It doesn't mean that at all, though a lot of guys who use the technique tend to fight that way. Orlando Canizalez, for one, used it a lot and he was very mobile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick45Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict
Shoulder rolling means your feet are relatively static... so that right there is somewhat of a weakness unless you are Mayweather
That's true. I think. What?Quote:
Originally Posted by NVSeminthere were cab drivers, who could not fix taxy's and could not race.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
People seem to be mistaking weaknesses in fighters for weaknesses in the shoulder roll defense.
If you jab to the chest/body the shoulder roller will parry with the power hand allowing a quick shot behind the jab.
Opposite stance fighters can come around the shoulder with a straight shot so you don't see southpaws employ it because they would open themselves to the straight right. And righties who employ the roll will have a harder time with southpaws.
The weaknesses are opened up by a jab(why Manny will never and would never have a chance against Floyd, like Shane never would have, no jab) like most defenses are opened up by a jab. So is it really even a weakness? Or is a jab just critical in boxing when you are at the highest level? I say a jab is simply critical.
Like someone mentioned earlier, get the roller moving and different parts will become available at different times to different shots. Then it is a question of if you can get to those before the roller can adjust to defend. No defense is perfect but no defense has to be perfect.
Oscar was too old.
Maidana too limited.
Hatton too dumb
Judah too erratic
Oscar never had stamina. Youth doesn't change that. You could say a younger Oscar would have done worse because a younger Oscar had no right hand to keep Floyd honest. Excuses can be made for anything so it's better to just save the excuses for the women. When they fought Floyd won, when they were younger Oscar wouldn't fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
The Oscar that fought Vargas would have beaten Floyd Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonOscar never had stamina. Youth doesn't change that. You could say a younger Oscar would have done worse because a younger Oscar had no right hand to keep Floyd honest. Excuses can be made for anything so it's better to just save the excuses for the women. When they fought Floyd won, when they were younger Oscar wouldn't fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
2002 154lb Oscar was the best Oscar ever. I've always felt that was the ideal weight for him even though most of his success and prime years were spent at 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterThe Oscar that fought Vargas would have beaten Floyd Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonOscar never had stamina. Youth doesn't change that. You could say a younger Oscar would have done worse because a younger Oscar had no right hand to keep Floyd honest. Excuses can be made for anything so it's better to just save the excuses for the women. When they fought Floyd won, when they were younger Oscar wouldn't fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
The only weakness in Floyd's shoulder roll, is that he bends at the waist with it, which means there is an opportunity to feint him into bending at the waist, while changing the angle on him (to his left).
Generally, moving around his left is a better idea than not, if you have very good feet/ balance.