Does Liston's jab dominate or is Haye's head movement too much?
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Does Liston's jab dominate or is Haye's head movement too much?
Haye wins pretty easily IMO and would probably stop him. He's majorly underrated IMO and too judged on wladimir rather than the fact he knocked out pretty much every good cruiser at the time & did a very decent job on most of the heavys as well.
Yes he lost to wlad comprehensively - but I think he'd stop Liston in 5 or 6 (genuinely!)
Interesting call on that. I think Hayes speed would be a huge problem for Liston.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
Liston crushes Haye like a roach, leaving him so devastated that he can't even blame his little toe
Is this prime vs prime? Because if it is I agree with the above statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by X
I agree Liston wins in a mid-to-late TKO.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1Is this prime vs prime? Because if it is I agree with the above statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by X
If that little glancing tap from Ali can have Liston rolling around on his back he has no chance against Haye.
Haye KO 1 with a jab. Fact.
((if the mob ain't involved, Haye KO 1 with a right hand. Fact))
Agreed! Haye and Ali are practically carbon copies, physically, although Ali had sturdier toes.😇Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Haye would knock him the fuck out. Too fast, too powerful.
Haye probably wins.
And if Ali stopped him then Haye likely does too.
The mob is why Liston rolled over I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
(Funny how Haye is a small heavy at 6'3. He fought like he was smaller than he was).
Haye is more like Floyd Patterson than Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedAgreed! Haye and Ali are practically carbon copies, physically, although Ali had sturdier toes.😇Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Liston gets fed up of Haye pulling out and moves on;)
Haye is better known for pulling out and taking hurt my selfies now
Haye would pull out multiple times because he has a headache or something. Then Liston gets him at a post fight presser, like Chisora, and they settle it there with Haye getting mauled by the Bear.
Stylistically and athletically, it's almost a mismatch given that there's so much time between them. Liston fought like a tall 6ft 2 and Haye fought like a small 6ft 3 so the jab would have been a false fit for Liston who was too slow of hands and foot for the more tactical and sharp counter punching version of Haye. I think Liston would get stopped.
Could Haye take those power shots?
Probably not for too long no, but then I don't think that he'd get much of a chance to land them.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
True. But if he just landed that left hook.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusProbably not for too long no, but then I don't think that he'd get much of a chance to land them.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Sonny Liston according to some members of what Rush Limbaugh calls the drive by media a gangland member to the end. I won't comment but I will say this, Liston was not book smart but when you consider the fact that he was a champion and coming up he was better than many boxers he encountered. He did not as well as the fighters coming up today pick his opponents. Liston fought with a style that you learn in the gym, traditional. Liston did not do many things right outside the ring but he knew how to destroy an opponent in that square. His jab and his hook were thrown the way he was taught in the gym and he was consistent no matter who was in front of him he battered with movement and proper balance and just enough animal instinct for getting to the next round. Haye is erratic but athletic but his style with his hands at his side and his pulling back his head is not indicative of a trained fighter yet he wins. In the end and this is where the confusion takes place we don't really know how old Liston was when he beat Patterson and some say he did not know either. Liston would probably beat Haye to the body provided they were the same age as the early destructive Liston. Many people only remember Liston-Patterson and Liston Ali. With Patterson two fights in two years and the same continuing with Ali and quite a few birthdays. Got that? A `younger Liston before Patterson is the winner by UD or late KO. We are now in another era and it is unfair to make comparisons without all the facts in but he was a terror and George Foreman's hero and you have to dig to find out why?
The only thing I'd say to that (aside from bravo), is that despite the unconventional manner in which Haye did certain things, he had learned to stick to a game plan like glue and made good use of his athleticism.
It would be interesting to see what type of fighter Haye would have been in the 60s? Would he have been another Cleveland Williams? Also Liston in this era I'm sure would have been a very different fighter as a heavyweight, given the environmental differences. Or maybe this should be a cruiserweight match up were talking about? ?
Cassius Clay was the only fighter in history that Could give Sonny Liston a really hard time
Liston was a bona fide hard case. He was a mob enforcer and 'strike breaker' .... That means that when people went on strike, he waded into the crowd and beat the shit out of the ringleaders. He was a genuinely scary guy and, in my humble opinion, the only opponent that Ali was ever truly scared of.
hOWEVER .... When Liston was in jail, he was one of the most feared guys there, but the only only people he avoided were the ones who were truly mentally disturbed. If you read some of the better biographies, his view was they (and I paraphrase) 'they were crazy and unpredictable, so you never knew what they might do next'
I think Cassius Clays great feat in the build up to their fight was to convince Liston that Clay was mentally unbalanced. They were the only people Liston was scared of, and Clay pulled this off and that was the single biggest reason he won the fight.
Back to the original question, Haye is athletic and has good power and a pretty unorthodox style, but PRIME Liston, and by the way that's not the Sonny that fought Patterson or Clay, was was well schooled, technically clumsy but brutally efficient, and a serious hard man.
Haye would blink, and back off from engaging Liston toe to toe. He would move backwards, dummy and fake, and try to ambush Sonny. Haye had good power. His problem is that Liston had a concrete chin in his prime and I suspect Haye would become discouraged and begin to look for a way our after about the 6th round.
Controversially, I think Liston might win after Haye is disqualified for persistent fouling or something like that once he begins to gas out.
The old timers had harder bodies, tougher chins, and stronger characters than the modern fighters. More pride and resolve.
Marciano, Liston, Walcott, Louis, Dempsey...
They would beat the snot out of Tyson, Klitschko, Moorer, Haye, Arreola, Wilder, Brewster, etc.
Greb, Jeffries, Johnson, Zale, Graziano, Saddler, Gunboat Smith, Baer, Basilio, Canzeroni, Fireman Jim Flynn, Beau Jack, Sullivan ...... Can't see any of those guys saying
"I hurt my LITTLE TOE and that's why I lost". :D
There is a huge chasm between Maccarinelli Valyuev and Liston. Hate would realize that early on and be utterly persuaded by the end of five rounds.
Yes, I seriously doubt that Haye would have dreamt of getting in a pre match brawl with a monster like Sonny Liston. I think he would have realised he had a better chance in the ring (slim) than in a street brawl with Ol Stoneface (none)
Liston smokes Davie Gaye in 6 rounds
Liston got rattled by a non-punching Muhammad Ali preflight. Haye would have intimidated the shit out of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by X
This has to be a joke.
A genuinely great champion whose reign was only ended by Ali, against a no mark waste of space who hasn't beaten a single decent heavyweight and gave Audley Harrison a title shot?
It's irrelevant anyway. Haye would be too scared of getting in the ring with Liston in the first place.
FFS.
Seriously though, Liston wrecks Haye. That long jab followed my the thunderous right puts Haye to bed. Call it an early night.
Haye would get wiped away by a prime Liston, which as X said was not during the time he was champion. Liston had a bomb of a jab and that would discourage David from engaging and fight defensively. Haye’s chin would mean he would get stopped during the fight. Haye’s movement would mean he survives for a bit but gets stopped 6th round.
Haye would Leotis Liston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgrwGNLTUH4
Too fast for big slow Liston.
The modern athlete is superior!
Yeah that jab was a ramrod but is overrated by modern standards.
Just compare it with the flight of a Klitschko jab to see my point.
Haye would THRIVE off the Liston jab.
Leotis Liston fight was way past his prime, it is like picking Tyson getting knocked out by McBride.
That has to be the first time I've ever heard someone claim that a boxer's prime was BEFORE they became champ ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
It happens to fighters who never get the title opportunity like Archie Moore.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat has to be the first time I've ever heard someone claim that a boxer's prime was BEFORE they became champ ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Yeah maybe so, but I just think its a bit dubious to say a guy was in his prime before he was champ, given the fact that everyone looks better before they're champ because they're fighting weaker opposition for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterIt happens to fighters who never get the title opportunity like Archie Moore.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat has to be the first time I've ever heard someone claim that a boxer's prime was BEFORE they became champ ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
I understand he was at a more advanced age when he won the title than most champs are, but he was just coming off of two first round KOs of Patterson, who was a magnificent fighter, so can we really say he was that passed his prime, if at all?
But hey I like Sonny, I always felt bad for him.
He probably could have been champ for another 5-8 years if it wasn't for Ali and he was able to keep his head on straight.
Say Haye 6'4, dat what Boxrec do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Liston would of murdered Haye prior to the fight