Is Wladimir Klitschko a "Warrior" like Holyfield/Frazier/Marciano?

I think not. I'll give him this: He has found a way to win, like Mayweather. But could he be a DOG and be in a war of attrition? Guess we'll never know, but most people think he would FOLD LIKE A 2-CENT MILK CARTON UNDER TREMENDOUS PRESSURE.

Dont we just get that feeling? Let's be honest.

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

Great ring IQ.
Measures an opponent like no other.
Masterful jab.

Why is he called Wladimir clinchko?

That's how he keeps a fight from breaking out.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

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Technically, you are right.

But he stands to retire like Floyd: someone who can be called a great boxer, but not a great fighter.

It's not about fighting till one gets brain damage, it's about having a legacy where fans can reminisce on his career with great stories to tell.

Not reminiscing on his statistics.

Oops didn't answer the question: NO.

Fold like a Wal-Mart lawn chair on a windy day.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

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Believe me Lyle, I 100% agree with you--why should he put his health at risk when he has found a way to win? He wins, it IS really all that matters. I cant disagree.

But boxing is also about guts, determination. If you just "found a way to win" every time by developing a style that SIGNIFICANTLY employs clinching and NON-engaging, well, I understand it works, JUST LOOK AT WLAD'S RECORD--- no one can dispute that. It is just a "stinky" style, let's call it. Like Floyd's.

I mean let's face it, when we hear people talk about Evander Holyfield-----for example----will ANYBODY EVER BE ABLE TO REMOTELY SAY that this dude was a chicken? a coward? a runner? a boring fighter? NOT ON YOUR LIFE! So in a very important way THAT kind of legacy DOES make a boxer more special, more loved, more respected as a fighter.

The goal of any fighter should be to find a style which allows them to cause the most damage to their opponent while they limit the damage they take themselves. The old hit and don't get hit. Some fighters do this like Wlad with height and reach, some fighters do it like Floyd with reflexes and defense, and some fighters do it by being so close you can't get power on your punches....Wlad does what works for him and because he's done so well he's an all time great and a sure fire hall of famer, but you take the time again and again and again to bitch about his style. His style WORKS, it's undeniable, why complain other than you're just butthurt that he doesn't HAVE to fight like Holyfield or Marciano.



Let me tell you a little story of a very talented boxer who didn't want to be Mr. Flashy Flash, he didn't want to be Mr. Hit and Don't Get Hit, he wanted to be a pure blood and guts warrior. This fighter was EXTREMELY talented, good pop, fastest hands you'd ever see, and very good head movement....but instead of working WITH his skill set he decided to be a warrior, he was from Philly and he'd be damned if he was going to be a pure boxer, Philly is the home of warriors!......His name was Meldrick Taylor and he RUINED his career doing what you're saying Wlad should do. Could have been the next Ray Leonard, but no sir, he wanted to prove a point and he suffers for that to this day.

This whole stand toe to toe rock'em sock'em robot style of fighting is for toughman competitions and bar fights, not for professional fighters.

Warrior? No, more like the high level Cleric.

wow, that was bad

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

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Technically, you are right.

But he stands to retire like Floyd: someone who can be called a great boxer, but not a great fighter.

It's not about fighting till one gets brain damage, it's about having a legacy where fans can reminisce on his career with great stories to tell.

Not reminiscing on his statistics.

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Excellent post.

I've come to begrudgingly appreciate Wlad for the being the best for so long and for carrying himself with such class and dignity.

He is far from a thrilling fighter though. He and Haye didn't exactly tear the house down. 60-70% of that was Haye, but Wlad shares some blame too. That could have been his signature fight.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

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Technically, you are right.

But he stands to retire like Floyd: someone who can be called a great boxer, but not a great fighter.

It's not about fighting till one gets brain damage, it's about having a legacy where fans can reminisce on his career with great stories to tell.

Not reminiscing on his statistics.

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Excellent post.

I've come to begrudgingly appreciate Wlad for the being the best for so long and for carrying himself with such class and dignity.

He is far from a thrilling fighter though. He and Haye didn't exactly tear the house down. 60-70% of that was Haye, but Wlad shares some blame too. That could have been his signature fight.

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I think Wlad is getting credit for his brothers work as well when it comes to how long hes now regarded as being the best. Vitali only retired in December 2013 thats less than 2 years that Wlad has been the best.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

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Technically, you are right.

But he stands to retire like Floyd: someone who can be called a great boxer, but not a great fighter.

It's not about fighting till one gets brain damage, it's about having a legacy where fans can reminisce on his career with great stories to tell.

Not reminiscing on his statistics.

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Can't disagree with you more! Boxers fight with what they have; intelligence, who they are inside, and the way they are trained. Many of them have a natural inclination to get right to it and bang away, most of them are inclined to hit and not be hit, some do both, and some don't want to be hit at all.
None of them are under any obligation to expose themselves to brain damage to keep the fans happy and reminiscing about the fights they've seen!
When your wife, lady friend, mother, or smart phone calls you at work to remind you of a doctor's appointment, do you think, "No way, cancel that damn thing. I want my co-workers, the boss, the stockholders, and my family to reminisce about the way I died on the f*cking job!" Piss on being a warrior, the race you want to win is outliving your enemies!
Marciano and Frazier would probably say they wish they could have fought the way Wald fights. One thing is sure, their careers would have been longer and easier.
I love a slug fest as much as the next person, but I'll be winching through the whole thing and absolutely not thinking this is the way boxing should be!

is he fuck

his style is the least "warrior" like of all champions in history, probably

theres been a few likenings to floyd in this thread

floyd is by no means an entertaining fighter but is is levels above wlad on entertainment value

wlads style is based on holding, something he has only been allowed to get away with because of the money he generates, its just not very interesting

The fans love it when you get a Corrales-Castillo I kind of fight, or a Gatti-Ward, or a Bowe-Holyfield, or a Brewster-Liakhovich kind of war....the FANS love it....the fighters I am certain have great respect for each other in battles like that, but it takes so much away from a fighter to have fights like that.

I mentioned Meldrick Taylor before, my God what a talent he was! Greased lightning hands, and good pop with his shots too, but he chose to be a brawler and it cost him, it cost him greatness. Look at Riddick Bowe, fine boxer, had a couple all out wars with Evander Holyfield....his time at the top could have been measured in seconds in 1991 he was on the rise and by 1993 he was finished as "THE MAN" of the division....do you think if he had made better use of his height and reach he would have lasted longer?

There are guys who have no choice but to brawl, the short stocky guys, the heavy handed power punchers, the guys with the amazing chins.....but given the choice to do things an easier way and have more success for longer? I'm certain they'd take that opportunity if they had the chance.


Look at Tommy Morrison, typically a thoughtless banger, a wild haymaker throwing slugger....one of his biggest wins of his career was when he made the decision to BOX George Foreman rather than stand toe to toe against him.

I'm not a big fan of klitchsko (only because i feel like someone of his physical specimen and stature should be knocking guys out after they're mentally defeated, instead of running out the clock. It kind of comes with the gladiator mentality... so my opinion him tends to waiver.

At the same time I'll wait for one of his opponents to be in shape, with a plan to use angles and feints to nullify his jab and throw counters over the top and keep working over 12 full rounds, using combination punching and working on the inside before and while they are being clinched before I officially fault the guy for spoiling. Most of his opponent half @$$ it and not giving them the best chance to win. That not his fault for showing up in shape with a trainer, a game plan that uses his reach and size. First good opponent in a while to get close to that was Jennings and i was a little disappointed with the clinching but he also did the smart thing and got to jennings while he was still a little green.

I wont compare him to floyd because at least he's humble, and not trying to win the fights before he gets into the ring. Also he's willing to step out of his backyard to fight.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well he doesn't really have to be does he? His talent and technique keep him out of the battles those guys were in and those kinds of battles can really shorten a career.

What does it matter if he goes to war or not when he wins all the time? I just don't see the point of knit picking how Wlad fights, the point is to WIN and Wlad puts a check mark beside that in his fights....it's boxing, not rock'em sock'em robots, there's skill involved here.

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Technically, you are right.

But he stands to retire like Floyd: someone who can be called a great boxer, but not a great fighter.

It's not about fighting till one gets brain damage, it's about having a legacy where fans can reminisce on his career with great stories to tell.

Not reminiscing on his statistics.

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Can't disagree with you more! Boxers fight with what they have; intelligence, who they are inside, and the way they are trained. Many of them have a natural inclination to get right to it and bang away, most of them are inclined to hit and not be hit, some do both, and some don't want to be hit at all.
None of them are under any obligation to expose themselves to brain damage to keep the fans happy and reminiscing about the fights they've seen!
When your wife, lady friend, mother, or smart phone calls you at work to remind you of a doctor's appointment, do you think, "No way, cancel that damn thing. I want my co-workers, the boss, the stockholders, and my family to reminisce about the way I died on the f*cking job!" Piss on being a warrior, the race you want to win is outliving your enemies!
Marciano and Frazier would probably say they wish they could have fought the way Wald fights. One thing is sure, their careers would have been longer and easier.
I love a slug fest as much as the next person, but I'll be winching through the whole thing and absolutely not thinking this is the way boxing should be!

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lol, I can't disagree with you enough (on this topic) as well. ;D
But it's all good.

I agree with your take on boxers. But we have also concluded there are those called boxer-Punchers which aren't brawlers.


IMO Wlad doesn't fight because he wants to be smart in the ring. It's not his makeup. Not in him.

Ray Leonard is a good example of aboxer-puncher. knew how to box, but when he got his skills compromised, he knew how to bang. So....:rolleyes: Does he slurr today? Nope.

What about Julio Cesar Chavez? While I don't speak Spanish, I know stuttering and slurring when it's done.
JCC wasn't a club fighter, right? He was an inside banger who used subtle shit on the inside. Only a warrior could or would dare to fight in close. Too many risks. Remember how he took away Edwin Rosario offense, using his elbow and forearms to block then counter in close quarters.

Hopkins another boxer who can minimize the punches he takes by clinching just like Wlad or Lennox. All 3 over use the clinch. However, Lennox and Hop got junk yard dog inside them when needed. Neither guy today is punch drunk.

Pernell Whitaker master boxer who didn't rely on clinching to ...not get hit. It takes a brave hombre to stand in front of their foe and just make them miss.

I agree that a fighter shouldn't take punishment for the sake of it. But that isn't my argument. Mines Is in agreement with Brock. Wlad doesn't have it in him to fight.

Some guys like Arturro Gatti throw caution to the wind blow for blow toe to toe like Israel Vazquez vs Marquez. Or Provodnikov vs MathysseSome boxers will fight with a cautious approach

Some boxers live to entertain like Emanuel Augustus, so I disagree with you that (all) boxers should try to hit and not get hit.
I do agree with you that all boxers should use whatever skills, gifts they have.

That means whenever a boxer has their skill compromised, and claim clinching is all they got????
Cool. But don't call that a trait of a warrior anymore than to just stand and trade.
That's a crazy dude lol

Wlad again is a brave person for choosing a hurt game. But that doesn't make him a warrior. He ain't nothing close to a warrior.

Wlad clinches out of reflex, not as a pre determined act.

Wlad clinches out of reflex.

BANG ON RIGHT THERE.

it ain't his strategy. It just happens out of fear and a lil help from some octopus arms. Mwa ha ho ho ho

@ kabong, beenkod

Great posts and top notch boxing insight. I think the difference here is that you both point out that Wlad shouldn't have to bang to win, if he can box and win.

Your arguments are solid.

2 final comments from me
1.boxers of old didn't practice hit and not get hit. 1900-1960 bar a few like Benny Leonard,

But the rest like uh..Jack Dempsey to Armstrong, Willie pep , fritzie zivac, Rocky grazing, Martciano....
It wasn't until clay aka Ali came along that the phrase took on meaning.
Previously it was called barbarism.

2. Even Floyd has fights with ndou, Hernandez, Corrales, Corley where he stood toe to toe. Floyd IMO fights safety first as a game plan. When he clinches; it's a choice he makes. Clinch, become mobile, or...use that somewhat illegal elbow to defend.
Wlad has one means to defend in the trenches: clinch. That imo isn't by choice. That big muthatrucka clinches to keep a fight from actually happening.

I am with El Kabong here. The idea of pro boxing is surely to make as much money as you can, whilst having as little damage as possible happen to you?!

Being called a warrior by a few thousand fans on the Internet, does not in itself pay the bills.

I am personally not the biggest fan of either brother, but I will say this:

Even in this relatively weak era, to be generally considered one of the two best Heavyweights for over a decade, takes a mental strength that only the likes of Holyfield, Frazier and Marciano can relate to.

Now understand this...

Wlad will get beaten on the 28th of November.

The only thing he can do to avoid getting beaten isnt holding, its pulling out again.

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Originally Posted by ross

Now understand this...

Wlad will get beaten on the 28th of November.

The only thing he can do to avoid getting beaten isnt holding, its pulling out again.

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I hope you can make me eat some humble pie on the Sunday morning of the 29th, but it will not be happening. Fury's 'victory' will be surviving into the last third of the fight.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

@ kabong, beenkod

Great posts and top notch boxing insight. I think the difference here is that you both point out that Wlad shouldn't have to bang to win, if he can box and win.

Your arguments are solid.

2 final comments from me
1.boxers of old didn't practice hit and not get hit. 1900-1960 bar a few like Benny Leonard,

But the rest like uh..Jack Dempsey to Armstrong, Willie pep , fritzie zivac, Rocky grazing, Martciano....
It wasn't until clay aka Ali came along that the phrase took on meaning.
Previously it was called barbarism.

2. Even Floyd has fights with ndou, Hernandez, Corrales, Corley where he stood toe to toe. Floyd IMO fights safety first as a game plan. When he clinches; it's a choice he makes. Clinch, become mobile, or...use that somewhat illegal elbow to defend.
Wlad has one means to defend in the trenches: clinch. That imo isn't by choice. That big muthatrucka clinches to keep a fight from actually happening.

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Willie Pep most certainly did NOT brawl sir! He would move and feint and land punches, but he rarely if ever stood right in front of an opponent and allowed himself to get hit...totally not his style. There have ALWAYS been pure boxers in the sport James J. Corbett was one of the very first to hone the sweet science but there's a fine long tradition of good boxers, smart boxers, avoiding all out wars....Gene Tunney for one, very smart, very skilled. Benny Lenard you mentioned already and rightfully so. Jack Johnson avoided brawling.

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Originally Posted by ross

Now understand this...

Wlad will get beaten on the 28th of November.

The only thing he can do to avoid getting beaten isnt holding, its pulling out again.

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That's what your father should have done ;)

El Kabong if you want to go down that route...

Your dad tried but when he pulled out of her ass his shit infused spunk dribbled in your old girls gaping bucket...


;D

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Originally Posted by ross

El Kabong if you want to go down that route...

Your dad tried but when he pulled out of her ass his shit infused spunk dribbled in your old girls gaping bucket...


;D

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Hahaha.... good response







.....but mine was funnier ;D

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by ross

El Kabong if you want to go down that route...

Your dad tried but when he pulled out of her ass his shit infused spunk dribbled in your old girls gaping bucket...


;D

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Hahaha.... good response







.....but mine was funnier ;D

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It wasnt, its been done every time a fighter pulls out against Tyson. Its a go to response.

Wlad has shown heart in defeat he gets back up and fights gamely. Wlad has guts and intelligence and it is up to the opponents to bring out the warrior in Wlad.

Mr. Klitschko is a prize fighter in the manly art of self defense you don't get there by registering for neurosurgical surgery at the beginning of your career. You train, you learn and you practice what you learn in the ring. I am not his biggest fan and he pisses me off but he is the guy in the ring and he does KO quite a few people and his chin allegedly has been tested when he should have been more alert he fought like he took a sleeping pill on occasion. Yes and as Sonny Liston said about Ernie Terrell who was the alphabet champion opposite Ali in the sixties, "He hugs me more than my wife." The style works and his fan base has grown but great? His chin's past questionable, his adaptability and concentration and oh yes, the WWE tactics are his and it is up to the opponent to solve it if he gets past that murderous jab. Oh yes, how many great referees are there that will challenge his tactics and control his part of the fight, enforcement of the rules? So the question is can he be regarded as a warrior in the same breath as the three mentioned? No but pissing me off or not he is the champ and like him or not he still entertains.

Isnt it a shame for those who both love Klitschko and loathe Fury that Klitschkos reign will be ended by Fury.

The most dominant and impressive run of any heavyweight for a long time will come to a halt at the hands of Tyson Fury. Haye knew better than to have that as his career epitaph.

It will happen whether you want to believe it or not. Just imagine now what that does to Klitschkos career. Will he suddenly be old? Or will Tyson get his dues?

I hope you all give Tyson his dues.

If Tyson wins then he should get the credit he deserves. To beat a champion who has held the title for over 10 years and record number of defenses beating Lewis, Tyson and Holmes title defences. It would be an amazing win.

A gun shy champion who uses the tools he has to maximum effect - but never set the world alight doing it, despite having major size advantage in most fights. I'm trying to recall some Wlad victories by first or second round knockouts ??

Haye couldn't knock him out when he claimed he would but let's not forget Wlad said he'd knock out Haye too.

Had he been a few inches shorter he would have been an also ran.

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

A gun shy champion who uses the tools he has to maximum effect - but never set the world alight doing it, despite having major size advantage in most fights. I'm trying to recall some Wlad victories by first or second round knockouts ??

Haye couldn't knock him out when he claimed he would but let's not forget Wlad said he'd knock out Haye too.

Had he been a few inches shorter he would have been an also ran.

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What I been saying all along. If he couldn't lean back that one extra inch (bigger dudes like sanders caught his ass good) he'd have been KTFO!!!!! LONG AGO

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

A gun shy champion who uses the tools he has to maximum effect - but never set the world alight doing it, despite having major size advantage in most fights. I'm trying to recall some Wlad victories by first or second round knockouts ??

Haye couldn't knock him out when he claimed he would but let's not forget Wlad said he'd knock out Haye too.

Had he been a few inches shorter he would have been an also ran.

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What I been saying all along. If he couldn't lean back that one extra inch (bigger dudes like sanders caught his ass good) he'd have been KTFO!!!!! LONG AGO

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If Granny had bollocks , I'd be calling her Grandad! It is what it is. Not everybody can be a brawling street fighter type that excites us, but we have to respect the skill he has.
I don't like the hugging, and especially against Povetkin , I had reservations about whether the ref was a plant. That was disgraceful, but Wlad can box , he didn't hug Pulev much, he put him away. And a lot of people were saying Pulev would be a tough fight.
We have to remember there is an art to Boxing and the idea is to hit and not get hit. Should he go out and take punches just for our benefit?
If you ask many brawlers or exciting fighters how they would prefer to fight if they could choose, and most would say that if they could, they would rather be the skilful classy type that doesn't get hit much.

You know those little fags and dweebs who sit in a little underground bunker in Nevada and push buttons and send these remote laser-guided bombs in to pinpoint precision targets in Afghanistan. ?
They cannot be touched. That is not an even a war. That is not a fair and balanced battle. I do not have respect for quote unquote warfare like that

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

If Granny had bollocks , I'd be calling her Grandad! It is what it is. Not everybody can be a brawling street fighter type that excites us, but we have to respect the skill he has.

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Yes agreed - I'm just saying. That's the heavyweight division for you - unfortunately you can be fighting a huge motherfucker who you can't compete with physically.

I'm 5' 7 and if I had a fight with Danny DeVito , 5'0, when he was the same age as me I'd be embarrassed if I didn't blow him away in the first round never mind the second.

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

If Granny had bollocks , I'd be calling her Grandad! It is what it is. Not everybody can be a brawling street fighter type that excites us, but we have to respect the skill he has.

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Yes agreed - I'm just saying. That's the heavyweight division for you - unfortunately you can be fighting a huge motherfucker who you can't compete with physically.

I'm 5' 7 and if I had a fight with Danny DeVito , 5'0, when he was the same age as me I'd be embarrassed if I didn't blow him away in the first round never mind the second.

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This

This what?

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

This what?

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Meaning I agreed with you

Ah . Thought you'd passed out at your keyboard and your head fallen and hit the submit button early

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

Ah . Thought you'd passed out at your keyboard and your head fallen and hit the submit button early

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It wouldn't be the first time haha

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

If Granny had bollocks , I'd be calling her Grandad! It is what it is. Not everybody can be a brawling street fighter type that excites us, but we have to respect the skill he has.

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Yes agreed - I'm just saying. That's the heavyweight division for you - unfortunately you can be fighting a huge motherfucker who you can't compete with physically.

I'm 5' 7 and if I had a fight with Danny DeVito , 5'0, when he was the same age as me I'd be embarrassed if I didn't blow him away in the first round never mind the second.

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This

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I understand what you're saying , but when you get to between say, 230 lbs and 260 lbs and 6 foot 3 and 6 foot 7, they can all bang hard enough to knock you out. So Wlad's 1st priority is to not put himself in a position to get KTFO . That may be negative, but he succeeds because of his jab and all round skillset.
I admit the Povetkin fight annoyed me because I thought he might be the one to challenge Wlad, and he must've been mega frustrated. He would've been better off getting DQ'd .