I've seen people rank Ali in the top 5 P4P, and I have to ask why. Is it because of his resume? Because, he got away with a lot of fundamental mistakes due to his speed, especially for a HW.
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I've seen people rank Ali in the top 5 P4P, and I have to ask why. Is it because of his resume? Because, he got away with a lot of fundamental mistakes due to his speed, especially for a HW.
ali is no where near the top 5 p4p @p4pking
It is because of his resume. There isn't another heavyweight with one even close to his. It's a who's who of heavyweight royalty.
Cassius Clay
I don't even have him in the Top 10 of the Heavyweight Division.
He dangles at #11.
Pound-For-Pound
As Ralph Kramden stated ........... "Har-De-Har-Har"
p4p list is difficult one to list in any real order.
In my lifetime I would have Roy Jones, Whitaker, Chavez and Manny in it.
I'm in the not a big fan of Ali club - not for political, social or religious reasons, purely boxing.
A terrific fighter, who was undoubtedly in memorable, historic fights, and is a deserved all-time great, but I always see the "great" modern heavyweights beating him and think he's a bit overrated.
Name 10 a head of him then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
Some general thoughts and general questions here, thinking aloud:Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict
I think cause he was anti authoritarian,black,could take a hit. Actually 100 hits and by choice better than anyone else in that one. (People claim people with a good beard as a prerequisite too). He was exciting to watch, due us to not knowing what approach he would take. Could move well for the weight.
' Because of fundamental mistakes used and got away with due to speed'?
Interesting;
Because there are the complete reverse in champions out there (different weight classes though) and many hate them,theres one Welsh one German and one American all undefeated. They are fighters who stick to fundamentals of boxing and a couple master just set moves to enhance their natural ability whether its speed or control and have become undefeated champions using minimalist moves and bore us all. Strange cause thats used against them by some to keep them out of the pound for pound rating too, but its the opposite to why some would choose to keep Ali out.
He pushed the limits so was exciting. Rude bastard of a smart ass business man too, so people hated him wanted him beat, paid to see it and others took to him as the underdog and paid to see him win. Which if he was a such a bad boxer as some of you make out then how did he do it against some of the best? Or was that the worse era of heavyweight boxing in your minds?
I don't think much of Ali outside the ring at all. Think he was pretty classless, especially in how he treated Joe Frazier. That being said, I have him in my top 3, and that is based off his quality of opposition (best ever at that weight, as well as any other weight), historical impact, and transcending of the sport. Ali was a global fighter who not only dominated the American landscape of sports, he dominated the WORLD. Will likely never be another fighter who comes close, and I can't stress how much it pains me to admit that.
~ Heavyweight's On Their 'Overall' Career ~Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterName 10 a head of him then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
1 ..... Jack Dempsey
2 ..... Joe Louis
3 ..... Larry Holmes
4 ..... James J. Jeffries
5 ..... Rocky Marciano
6 ..... Jack Johnson
7 ..... Lennox Lewis
8 ..... George Foreman
9 ..... Gene Tunney
10 ... Ezzard Charles
11 ... Cassius Clay
He was an enigma to both Cus and Angelo when you listen to them chatting there about the difference between what he practiced and what he did for real.
Your list just shows how stupid and bias you are. Embarrassing Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom~ Heavyweight's On Their 'Overall' Career ~Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterName 10 a head of him then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
1 ..... Jack Dempsey
2 ..... Joe Louis
3 ..... Larry Holmes
4 ..... James J. Jeffries
5 ..... Rocky Marciano
6 ..... Jack Johnson
7 ..... Lennox Lewis
8 ..... George Foreman
9 ..... Gene Tunney
10 ... Ezzard Charles
11 ... Cassius Clay
#1 but that just may be my bias. Definitely top 5 for sure though. He had tremendous speed, an exceptional chin, great stamina, awesome footwork, and he had decent power. He was also very tough and competitive. I'm shocked that some people don't have him in at least their top 10 p4p.
p4p=popularity contest. It’s a kind of backronym and lazy way of saying it. Its use suggests that it has real meaning but it doesn’t.
Besides based on what it’s supposed to mean which has been bastardized over time, how do you include any heavyweight on the list? Has anyone here ever seen a 7 foot featherweight? How do you begin to make the leap for heavyweights to even enter the discussion?
Suppose Wlad or Ali fought at feather how would they do?
It’s a ridiculous question.
Armstrong was a real pound for pound fighter. Greb, Langford, Carpentier, Gans etc etc. Oscar, Floyd, Manny are pound for pound fighters. But save a few, even multiple belt holders today are tainted when the true meaning of the word is applied. Most of these guys are fighting 2 divisions south of where they should be to begin with so when they move up its smoke and mirrors. Armstrong showed up at the weigh in against Ross at 133 for a welter title challenge. That’s a pound for pound fight and fighter. Greb showed up for the first Tunney fight at 162. Check out Babados Joe Walcotts career.
Ali ranks as the best hev ever by plenty of people, historians and average Joes just like Louis and that's fine by me and where he sits in ATG lists is open to question just like the default to Robinson is. Personally I believe there have been several fighters that would have or could have beaten them both.
Armstrong Langford carpenter Gans Willie pepp Jack Johnson even guys like Sugar Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran they are way ahead on the pound for pound list compared to Muhammad Ali
Master 'Wet Noodle'Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYour list just shows how stupid and bias you are. Embarrassing Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom~ Heavyweight's On Their 'Overall' Career ~Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterName 10 a head of him then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
1 ..... Jack Dempsey
2 ..... Joe Louis
3 ..... Larry Holmes
4 ..... James J. Jeffries
5 ..... Rocky Marciano
6 ..... Jack Johnson
7 ..... Lennox Lewis
8 ..... George Foreman
9 ..... Gene Tunney
10 ... Ezzard Charles
11 ... Cassius Clay
On the overall,
Cassius Clay is an 'Eleven'.
How many on that Top 10 list have been called 'Clowns' as much as Cassius.
How many have been called the greatest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomMaster 'Wet Noodle'Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYour list just shows how stupid and bias you are. Embarrassing Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom~ Heavyweight's On Their 'Overall' Career ~Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterName 10 a head of him then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
1 ..... Jack Dempsey
2 ..... Joe Louis
3 ..... Larry Holmes
4 ..... James J. Jeffries
5 ..... Rocky Marciano
6 ..... Jack Johnson
7 ..... Lennox Lewis
8 ..... George Foreman
9 ..... Gene Tunney
10 ... Ezzard Charles
11 ... Cassius Clay
On the overall,
Cassius Clay is an 'Eleven'.
How many on that Top 10 list have been called 'Clowns' as much as Cassius.
Ezzard Charles? Really must have strained your brain trying to come up with that one. :)
ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
They were great heavyweights and would have dominated in any era if Ali was not around they would have been considered greater than they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
Foreman and Frazier are in most people top 10 heavyweight champs. Sonny would have dominated if Ali was not around.
that's the mythQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterThey were great heavyweights and would have dominated in any era if Ali was not around they would have been considered greater than they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
Foreman and Frazier are in most people top 10 heavyweight champs. Sonny would have dominated if Ali was not around.
Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Purely from the point of view as a boxer I'm not sure, but as a celebrity boxer, no doubt he is the the best P4P. He was extremely popular and almost everybody loved him. You've probably heard people chanting Ali, Ali! and I don't remember anyone booing him... He's become a boxing icon. Ask people who they think represents boxing - the answer will most likely be, Ali. But actually, I didn't like him that much then...
Where is the myth? They were great champions and heavyweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44that's the mythQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterThey were great heavyweights and would have dominated in any era if Ali was not around they would have been considered greater than they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
Foreman and Frazier are in most people top 10 heavyweight champs. Sonny would have dominated if Ali was not around.
Sonny ListonQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterThey were great heavyweights and would have dominated in any era if Ali was not around they would have been considered greater than they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
Foreman and Frazier are in most people top 10 heavyweight champs. Sonny would have dominated if Ali was not around.
The old man was done. He was {Age; 36 1/2} in March 1964.
Bad Left Shoulder
No Right Hand
Straddle Legged
Slow Afoot
Slow Thinking
J & B Scotch Saturated
Evander has great quality of opposition, second only to Ali. Difference for me is that Evander wasn't as consistent in winning as long or often as Ali was vs top notch opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Liston had just obliterated the previous champ (Patterson) twice, and was a significant favorite to win the first match up. Sonny was past his best, but was not shot or as pathetic as you are making him out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomSonny ListonQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterThey were great heavyweights and would have dominated in any era if Ali was not around they would have been considered greater than they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
Foreman and Frazier are in most people top 10 heavyweight champs. Sonny would have dominated if Ali was not around.
The old man was done. He was {Age; 36 1/2} in March 1964.
Bad Left Shoulder
No Right Hand
Straddle Legged
Slow Afoot
Slow Thinking
J & B Scotch Saturated
Sonny carried on fighting beating some good fighters until his death 1970's. Bill where were you when it happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodListon had just obliterated the previous champ (Patterson) twice, and was a significant favorite to win the first match up. Sonny was past his best, but was not shot or as pathetic as you are making him out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomSonny ListonQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterThey were great heavyweights and would have dominated in any era if Ali was not around they would have been considered greater than they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44ali has only fought the whos who because ali went on about them so muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
why would all of the best known hws in history all come from alis era, because they were all the best or because of ali and alis mouth?
Foreman and Frazier are in most people top 10 heavyweight champs. Sonny would have dominated if Ali was not around.
The old man was done. He was {Age; 36 1/2} in March 1964.
Bad Left Shoulder
No Right Hand
Straddle Legged
Slow Afoot
Slow Thinking
J & B Scotch Saturated
Besides Frazier (Who was steamrolled by Big George Foreman and his 2 wins vs Liston the rest of the list can be questioned for quality. A lot of his opponents were past their primes or c level competition that were elevated when they fought Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodEvander has great quality of opposition, second only to Ali. Difference for me is that Evander wasn't as consistent in winning as long or often as Ali was vs top notch opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Big George Foreman should not be forgotten. If Ali was not around Foreman would have been a dominant champion for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Besides Frazier (Who was steamrolled by Big George Foreman and his 2 wins vs Liston the rest of the list can be questioned for quality. A lot of his opponents were past their primes or c level competition that were elevated when they fought Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodEvander has great quality of opposition, second only to Ali. Difference for me is that Evander wasn't as consistent in winning as long or often as Ali was vs top notch opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBig George Foreman should not be forgotten. If Ali was not around Foreman would have been a dominant champion for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Besides Frazier (Who was steamrolled by Big George Foreman and his 2 wins vs Liston the rest of the list can be questioned for quality. A lot of his opponents were past their primes or c level competition that were elevated when they fought Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodEvander has great quality of opposition, second only to Ali. Difference for me is that Evander wasn't as consistent in winning as long or often as Ali was vs top notch opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Cassius Clay didn't win that fight. George Foreman lost it.
No! Muhammad Ali won it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterBig George Foreman should not be forgotten. If Ali was not around Foreman would have been a dominant champion for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Besides Frazier (Who was steamrolled by Big George Foreman and his 2 wins vs Liston the rest of the list can be questioned for quality. A lot of his opponents were past their primes or c level competition that were elevated when they fought Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodEvander has great quality of opposition, second only to Ali. Difference for me is that Evander wasn't as consistent in winning as long or often as Ali was vs top notch opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Cassius Clay didn't win that fight. George Foreman lost it.
Ezzard Charles
I never put much credence into Cassius Clay being a great fighter. Oh, he's a wonderful boxer,
but he's not a great fighter.
So, he beat Sonny Liston. That's no big deal. I was boxing Sonny's his ears off when they brought
him to Pittsburg for training back in 1955. And I was a very worn down boxer at that time.
He was nothing but 'slow' St' Louis Hash.
Ezzard Charles was probably the greatest light heavyweight ever but as a heavyweight Sonny would have tore him apart and Ali would have battered him like a rag doll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
Ezzard Charles
1955 ....... Age; 35
Yes, Tom Tannas had taken over managing this St. Louis Bruiser called Charles 'Sonny' Liston.
They shipped him to Pittsburg, because he was in all sorts of trouble in St. Louis. He was supposed
to be this awesome punching machine.
He frightened everyone just by his presence. Nobody wanted to get into the Ring with him. He was
6' 1" and weighed about 205 lbs. He was built like a 'Brick Shit House'. Just massive.
So they asked me to get in the Ring with him, to test him. We were supposed to go 6-Rounds, and
at a good pace.
I was really worn down at that time, but I could still handle myself defensively.
Well, we get into the Ring and start sparring. For the first 2-Rounds, he came charging at me like a
big Freight Train. Just clubbing away with power punches.
But he was slow as 'Shit'. I could see his punches coming at me from a Mile-a-Way. I would just
duck and side-step him, and then counter back with a short left-hook to his 'chops'.
By the 3rd Round, he was frustrated as 'All Hell'. He couldn't hit me at all.
He was now throwing slow clubbing punches. They were heavy, but they had no snap. By the 4th
Round he was 'gassed'. Then I just pot-shot him with lead right-hands to his nose. Not hard
punches, but accurate punches square on his beak.
His nose started to bleed in the 5th Round,.
The he just up and quit half-way thru the Round. The guy just turned around, and walked back to
his corner.
I said out loud ...... "Is that it."
He didn't say a word. He just went to the corner, and told Tom Tannas to 'cut-the-gloves' off.
I was shocked at his quitting like that.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Charles_2.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill PaxtomQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterBig George Foreman should not be forgotten. If Ali was not around Foreman would have been a dominant champion for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Besides Frazier (Who was steamrolled by Big George Foreman and his 2 wins vs Liston the rest of the list can be questioned for quality. A lot of his opponents were past their primes or c level competition that were elevated when they fought Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodEvander has great quality of opposition, second only to Ali. Difference for me is that Evander wasn't as consistent in winning as long or often as Ali was vs top notch opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09Really? Holyfield fought everyone in his era and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Cassius Clay didn't win that fight. George Foreman lost it.
Poor old Bill his brain is addled LOL Ali is P4P # Numero Uno
Last time I did a list I had him #6. Although the Heavyweights as a division are pound for pound weak; they do tend to have icon leaders, who should be rated highly. Ali and Louis being the top class of them leaders.
Agree with everything you wrote in this one. Don't know where the hate for Liston is coming from, but if you look at the mans physical stats he would appear to have been developed in a lab for the sole purpose of fighting. The man was a beast and one of the most intimidating fighters ever, who was unfortunately kept from a title shot for years. He pretty much cleaned the division out to for Patterson's hand and fight him, but was unlucky to have to face the greatest heavyweight ever for his second defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterEzzard Charles was probably the greatest light heavyweight ever but as a heavyweight Sonny would have tore him apart and Ali would have battered him like a rag doll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom
Ezzard Charles
~ 1968 ~
I would never put Cassius Clay as one of the Top Heavyweights.
He is not on par with >
James J. Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Baer
Max Schmeling
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
I would say that he in the group with Jim Corbett and Robert Fitzsimmons.
Oh, he is a notch above - Jack Sharkey and Jersey Joe Walcott. He's a little better than
those guys, but not by much.
I will no doubt put him ahead of >
John L. Sullivan
Marvin Hart
Tommy Burns
Jess Willard
Primo Carnera
James J. Braddock
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Ernie Terrell
It's too early to tell where he compares with Jimmy Ellis and Joe Frazier, as these Champions
have just gotten started.
If that quote is true then Ali had a career which got even better. Ezzard would have said it was better than all of them.