Vernon Forrest

Was reading an article on Buddy McGirt and in it he spoke about Vernon, which got me thinking on his career. I was a huge Forrest fan and thought he would go on to be the dominant welterweight once he started fighting the big names. After watching him dominate Mosely (I won good money on Forrest), I was sure I was right.

Needless to say, I was SHOCKED when he lost to Mayorga, and even more shocked when his career fell apart after. I know he had shoulder surgery and that may have limited his use of his jab/hook, but I just can't figure out how a guy with so much promise didn't last longer at the top. Interested in everyone's thoughts/theories on Vernon, and what went wrong with his career.

On a side note, he was a great guy who went out of his way to help sick kids, especially in his native Atlanta. It was a horrible loss for the sport when he was murdered, and I understand that that incident impacted his ability to reclaim his previous glory/stature. What I'm specifically asking about, is what went wrong post Shane, or do you think he was overrated even prior to fighting Mosely?

Vernon had the style to beat Shane and was his kryptonite. The second fight between them was close and I was annoyed at the amount of holding Forrest did in the rematch and he made it a negative fight but I was a Shane fan.

I did watch him do the charity work and found that amazing that he would do so much for vulnerable children. That made me a fan of his.

Mayorga was Vernon's kryptonite and no way should he have lost to someone that raw.

The injury you mentioned was effectively the end of his career at the top level, I thought he lost against Ike Quartey.

His premature death was shocking and took away a very generous and noble person.

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Originally Posted by Master

Vernon had the style to beat Shane and was his kryptonite. The second fight between them was close and I was annoyed at the amount of holding Forrest did in the rematch and he made it a negative fight but I was a Shane fan.I did watch him do the charity work and found that amazing that he would do so much for vulnerable children. That made me a fan of his. Mayorga was Vernon's kryptonite and no way should he have lost to someone that raw.The injury you mentioned was effectively the end of his career at the top level, I thought he lost against Ike Quartey.His premature death was shocking and took away a very generous and noble person.

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Very well said.

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Originally Posted by Master

Vernon had the style to beat Shane and was his kryptonite. The second fight between them was close and I was annoyed at the amount of holding Forrest did in the rematch and he made it a negative fight but I was a Shane fan.

I did watch him do the charity work and found that amazing that he would do so much for vulnerable children. That made me a fan of his.

Mayorga was Vernon's kryptonite and no way should he have lost to someone that raw.

The injury you mentioned was effectively the end of his career at the top level, I thought he lost against Ike Quartey.

His premature death was shocking and took away a very generous and noble person.

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I thought he lost to Bazooka Quartey also. Speaking of Ike, he was another fighter who I thought highly of, yet didn't fulfill his potential (IMHO). Thought he fought very well vs. Oscar, looked like a beast vs. Vince Philips, but gassed late in his fights and fought inconsistently against Oba Carr and Jose Luis Lopez. The most shocking loss though, was his virtual shutout vs Fernando Vargas. That wasn't even close, and Vargas was still green.

I think beating Mosley made him a little overrated, but he was definitely a good fighter. I've always thought the same thing as you though. Someone with so much skill and the ability to be a p4p fighter for years to come just kind of fell off.

It's two fold. Many fighters can't completely recovery mentally after getting KO'd. He never seemed to have the same flair after that first fight with mayorga. Second, his shoulder surgery I think really hindered his fighting style.

I think with both of those circumstances, he never fulfilled his potential.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

Was reading an article on Buddy McGirt and in it he spoke about Vernon, which got me thinking on his career. I was a huge Forrest fan and thought he would go on to be the dominant welterweight once he started fighting the big names. After watching him dominate Mosely (I won good money on Forrest), I was sure I was right.

Needless to say, I was SHOCKED when he lost to Mayorga, and even more shocked when his career fell apart after. I know he had shoulder surgery and that may have limited his use of his jab/hook, but I just can't figure out how a guy with so much promise didn't last longer at the top. Interested in everyone's thoughts/theories on Vernon, and what went wrong with his career.

On a side note, he was a great guy who went out of his way to help sick kids, especially in his native Atlanta. It was a horrible loss for the sport when he was murdered, and I understand that that incident impacted his ability to reclaim his previous glory/stature. What I'm specifically asking about, is what went wrong post Shane, or do you think he was overrated even prior to fighting Mosely?

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I don't understand your reason for being shocked that he lost to Mayorga. The scoring of blows in combat sports happens in exchanges and the prime version of Mayorga was no slouch. He was good puncher that ended up at the highest levels of his sport and that did not happen by accident. Mayorga probably also beat Spinks as well at the height of his career, though I have to review that fight before I can confirm that. I actually think Mayorga did not come close to his potential as a fighter due to a lack of world class professional training and his lack of discipline. In my opinion he left more raw potential and talent in the bag than Forrest. So we should switch your question to how good could've Mayorga been if he had the same type of trainers, facilities and management as Vernon Forrest or Shane Mosley?

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Originally Posted by wanderingfighter

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

Was reading an article on Buddy McGirt and in it he spoke about Vernon, which got me thinking on his career. I was a huge Forrest fan and thought he would go on to be the dominant welterweight once he started fighting the big names. After watching him dominate Mosely (I won good money on Forrest), I was sure I was right.

Needless to say, I was SHOCKED when he lost to Mayorga, and even more shocked when his career fell apart after. I know he had shoulder surgery and that may have limited his use of his jab/hook, but I just can't figure out how a guy with so much promise didn't last longer at the top. Interested in everyone's thoughts/theories on Vernon, and what went wrong with his career.

On a side note, he was a great guy who went out of his way to help sick kids, especially in his native Atlanta. It was a horrible loss for the sport when he was murdered, and I understand that that incident impacted his ability to reclaim his previous glory/stature. What I'm specifically asking about, is what went wrong post Shane, or do you think he was overrated even prior to fighting Mosely?

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I don't understand your reason for being shocked that he lost to Mayorga. The scoring of blows in combat sports happens in exchanges and the prime version of Mayorga was no slouch. He was good puncher that ended up at the highest levels of his sport and that did not happen by accident. Mayorga probably also beat Spinks as well at the height of his career, though I have to review that fight before I can confirm that. I actually think Mayorga did not come close to his potential as a fighter due to a lack of world class professional training and his lack of discipline. In my opinion he left more raw potential and talent in the bag than Forrest. So we should switch your question to how good could've Mayorga been if he had the same type of trainers, facilities and management as Vernon Forrest or Shane Mosley?

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Good point about Mayorga, but it's his fault. He was a crazy, tough, powerful bastard but lazy too. He def beat Spinks. After he got screwed on that decision, he just continued to cash out n often quit. I was proud of him for winning another title and beating old Vargas at least.

I remember after Cotto stopped him, Mayorga's trainer said that he had the potential to be one of the best Latin fighters ever, but he wouldn't train right. He blew it.

very well said

I don't understand your reason for being shocked that he lost to Mayorga. The scoring of blows in combat sports happens in exchanges and the prime version of Mayorga was no slouch. He was good puncher that ended up at the highest levels of his sport and that did not happen by accident. Mayorga probably also beat Spinks as well at the height of his career, though I have to review that fight before I can confirm that. I actually think Mayorga did not come close to his potential as a fighter due to a lack of world class professional training and his lack of discipline. In my opinion he left more raw potential and talent in the bag than Forrest. So we should switch your question to how good could've Mayorga been if he had the same type of trainers, facilities and management as Vernon Forrest or Shane Mosley?[/QUOTE]

I can see your point, to a degree, and maybe Mayorga's potential is worth discussing, but in my opinion you've already answered the question as to how good Mayorga could've been with better facilities: a lack of discipline and professionalism. Numerous fighters (Duran, Chavez, Jorge Castro...etc.) have become successful, disciplined fighters who overcome poverty and a lack of "top notch" facilities to learn and perfect their craft. The truth is that the mental aspect of boxing is extremely important, and Mayorga didn't have the discipline to EVER become a top teir fighter, regardless of where he trained or who trained him. I still think the better question is how does a polished boxer and ex-Olympian blow out the p4p best fighter, lose to a crude street fighter with a tremendous punch, and never get heard from again?

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

I don't understand your reason for being shocked that he lost to Mayorga. The scoring of blows in combat sports happens in exchanges and the prime version of Mayorga was no slouch. He was good puncher that ended up at the highest levels of his sport and that did not happen by accident. Mayorga probably also beat Spinks as well at the height of his career, though I have to review that fight before I can confirm that. I actually think Mayorga did not come close to his potential as a fighter due to a lack of world class professional training and his lack of discipline. In my opinion he left more raw potential and talent in the bag than Forrest. So we should switch your question to how good could've Mayorga been if he had the same type of trainers, facilities and management as Vernon Forrest or Shane Mosley?

I can see your point, to a degree, and maybe Mayorga's potential is worth discussing, but in my opinion you've already answered the question as to how good Mayorga could've been with better facilities: a lack of discipline and professionalism. Numerous fighters (Duran, Chavez, Jorge Castro...etc.) have become successful, disciplined fighters who overcome poverty and a lack of "top notch" facilities to learn and perfect their craft. The truth is that the mental aspect of boxing is extremely important, and Mayorga didn't have the discipline to EVER become a top teir fighter, regardless of where he trained or who trained him. I still think the better question is how does a polished boxer and ex-Olympian blow out the p4p best fighter, lose to a crude street fighter with a tremendous punch, and never get heard from again?

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Because the opposite of something is the same. What you consider "crude" and "street fighting" can be considered skillful if you look at it from a specific way. There's an art to brawling after all, just as there's an art to outfighting. Usually most brawlers are great counter punchers. They are skilled at landing one punch counters carrying their body weight, and Mayorga was not just any brawler. Let's be clear here, he was a world champion at one point. You don't get to that point by being crude and of low skill. A crude street fighter wouldn't have the right type of muscle memory, stamina, chin and counter punching ability to get the level he did.

I believe that there's skill to every single style. I think the main problem here is that the audience of this sport believes that "skills" inside of the ring can only come in one package. Once upon a time brawlers and inside fighters and even excessive clinchers were considered skillful.

When it comes to the fight itself...

I think that unfortunately for Forrest, Mayorga's favorite punch is the overhand right. This is a punch that Forrest's muscle memory wasn't trained for. It's that simple to be honest with you. When we fight we can't really think in there, your body is for the most part working on the data that's stored in it. The repetitions on the pads, mitts, etc is what pretty much comes out. For whatever reason he just couldn't deal with that punch and Mayorga found openings to land single counters with it often. Also for some psychological reason that I can't explain. Tall fighters are usually susceptible to that punch. This is a good article on the use of the overhand in striking: Roy Nelson: The Art of a Hundred Overhands | FIGHTLAND

Vernon was a hell of a boxer and I think he could have gone on to do greater things had he not ended up so limited after his injuries. His style that beat Shane SHOULD HAVE allowed him to also beat Mayorga but apparently Mayorga had his number. At the higher weight classes he just wasn't himself.

Ike Bazooka Quartey had one of the most destructive and powerful jabs in the business. Loved watching him box. Shame he did not get that decision against Vernon.

?[/QUOTE]

Because the opposite of something is the same. What you consider "crude" and "street fighting" can be considered skillful if you look at it from a specific way. There's an art to brawling after all, just as there's an art to outfighting. Usually most brawlers are great counter punchers. They are skilled at landing one punch counters carrying their body weight, and Mayorga was not just any brawler. Let's be clear here, he was a world champion at one point. You don't get to that point by being crude and of low skill. A crude street fighter wouldn't have the right type of muscle memory, stamina, chin and counter punching ability to get the level he did.

I believe that there's skill to every single style. I think the main problem here is that the audience of this sport believes that "skills" inside of the ring can only come in one package. Once upon a time brawlers and inside fighters and even excessive clinchers were considered skillful.

When it comes to the fight itself...

I think that unfortunately for Forrest, Mayorga's favorite punch is the overhand right. This is a punch that Forrest's muscle memory wasn't trained for. It's that simple to be honest with you. When we fight we can't really think in there, your body is for the most part working on the data that's stored in it. The repetitions on the pads, mitts, etc is what pretty much comes out. For whatever reason he just couldn't deal with that punch and Mayorga found openings to land single counters with it often. Also for some psychological reason that I can't explain. Tall fighters are usually susceptible to that punch. This is a good article on the use of the overhand in striking: Roy Nelson: The Art of a Hundred Overhands | FIGHTLAND[/QUOTE]

You feel that after decades in the sport, and amateur success that saw him make the olympic team, Vernon hadn't ever seen a right hand before?!?!? Have to say I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Brawling doesn't take skill, you use it to negate superior skill. Mayorga wasn't clever at all, and other than Forrest, maybe Andrew Lewis, and possibly Cory Spinks (if you give Mayorga that fight), Ricardo didn't beat any world class fighters (Vargas was a completely shot fighter when they fought).

Inside fighting is different than throwing haymakers and being overly aggressive. JC Superstar, Jose Luis Castillo, and Duran are all examples of skillful inside fighters. They fought rough on the inside, but they never neglected defense and always had a method to their madness. Look at Mayorga vs Oscar and Tito. Talk about a chasm in technique and skills, those two humiliated him. Vernon was on their level, so he should've never lost to a crude fighter like Mayorga, but overconfidence and hubris caught Up with him.

The question, again, is whether others feel Vernon was hyped, or if the overconfidence, shoulder injury, or mental aspects got the best of him. Appreciate your input, just think we view things much differently and will have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Master

Ike Bazooka Quartey had one of the most destructive and powerful jabs in the business. Loved watching him box. Shame he did not get that decision against Vernon.

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Did you see Quartey's title winning fight vs Crisanto Espana? He was a beast that night and walked through hellacious shots to destroy a large and skilled welterweight Titlist. Very impressive fight in my opinion, and couldn't agree more that he had a piston for a jab.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

?

Because the opposite of something is the same. What you consider "crude" and "street fighting" can be considered skillful if you look at it from a specific way. There's an art to brawling after all, just as there's an art to outfighting. Usually most brawlers are great counter punchers. They are skilled at landing one punch counters carrying their body weight, and Mayorga was not just any brawler. Let's be clear here, he was a world champion at one point. You don't get to that point by being crude and of low skill. A crude street fighter wouldn't have the right type of muscle memory, stamina, chin and counter punching ability to get the level he did.

I believe that there's skill to every single style. I think the main problem here is that the audience of this sport believes that "skills" inside of the ring can only come in one package. Once upon a time brawlers and inside fighters and even excessive clinchers were considered skillful.

When it comes to the fight itself...

I think that unfortunately for Forrest, Mayorga's favorite punch is the overhand right. This is a punch that Forrest's muscle memory wasn't trained for. It's that simple to be honest with you. When we fight we can't really think in there, your body is for the most part working on the data that's stored in it. The repetitions on the pads, mitts, etc is what pretty much comes out. For whatever reason he just couldn't deal with that punch and Mayorga found openings to land single counters with it often. Also for some psychological reason that I can't explain. Tall fighters are usually susceptible to that punch. This is a good article on the use of the overhand in striking: Roy Nelson: The Art of a Hundred Overhands | FIGHTLAND

You feel that after decades in the sport, and amateur success that saw him make the olympic team, Vernon hadn't ever seen a right hand before?!?!? Have to say I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Brawling doesn't take skill, you use it to negate superior skill. Mayorga wasn't clever at all, and other than Forrest, maybe Andrew Lewis, and possibly Cory Spinks (if you give Mayorga that fight), Ricardo didn't beat any world class fighters (Vargas was a completely shot fighter when they fought).

Inside fighting is different than throwing haymakers and being overly aggressive. JC Superstar, Jose Luis Castillo, and Duran are all examples of skillful inside fighters. They fought rough on the inside, but they never neglected defense and always had a method to their madness. Look at Mayorga vs Oscar and Tito. Talk about a chasm in technique and skills, those two humiliated him. Vernon was on their level, so he should've never lost to a crude fighter like Mayorga, but overconfidence and hubris caught Up with him.

The question, again, is whether others feel Vernon was hyped, or if the overconfidence, shoulder injury, or mental aspects got the best of him. Appreciate your input, just think we view things much differently and will have to agree to disagree.

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I just re-watched that first fight and for whatever reason that right was landing at will. We can probably say that Forrest took Mayorga lightly, he was supposed to be an opponent to showcase Forrest on his first fight on that new HBO contract. But I'm not sure. I don't think Forrest was undisciplined enough to take anyone lightly.

Is possible that the combination of Mayorga's aggressiveness, cleverness and explosiveness, and will to win on both of those nights made his right hand unlike anything else Forrest had seen at that point. To be a good brawler you need to have the right combination of intangibles. And for a short period Mayorga had those intangibles.

The skill in brawling at the high levels is highly dependent on conditioning and your will to get the outcome that you want. These type of fighters have a short period of success since their fighting skill is not based on scientific boxing so their process cannot be replicated easily. I think that by the point Mayorga fought Oscar and Tito he was a different fighter. A more financially stable one and we can probably say that comfortability results into relaxed training environment which reduces the brawler's most important skills which are all in his psyche, conditioning and how he approaches each fight.

From being around gyms for the last 10 years I can tell you right now that I believe that the successful brawler wins before the fight even starts. This is the reason why I love seeing these brawler vs boxer boxing matches. There's a certain beauty to the clash of these styles if the brawler is peaking at the right time, because for the brawler each fight is the equivalent of climbing a mountain. The most simple response to your question is that Mayorga was ready to either die or get over that mountain and that's why Forrest lost. He just met a fighter with a stronger will than him that night.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

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Originally Posted by Master

Ike Bazooka Quartey had one of the most destructive and powerful jabs in the business. Loved watching him box. Shame he did not get that decision against Vernon.

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Did you see Quartey's title winning fight vs Crisanto Espana? He was a beast that night and walked through hellacious shots to destroy a large and skilled welterweight Titlist. Very impressive fight in my opinion, and couldn't agree more that he had a piston for a jab.

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I was a big fan of Espana, he was based in Britain and married and Irish woman. He beat and stopped Meldrick Taylor (admittedly who was finished at the top) which was impressive and was a very fit fighter who could run marathons.

Anyway for Ike to beat him was very impressive but I do remember Ike saying that Espana became slower and weaker as the fight went on and Espana did say he was ill for that fight. I have never seen that fight but glad it was entertaining.