"P4P no.1!" Chocolatito-vs-Thai Bang Bang Merchant - (Golovkin-Jacobs undercard)

Not seen anyone mention Chocolatito-Srisaket in the Golovkin-Jacobs thread so i'm giving the little basher-genius his own thread.

This is clearly a mismatch, right? The bookies give the typical padded record Thai no chance - he is generally 9/1 just to win. However....

Having a closer look, on a formline through Cuadras those odds are way to big. Cuadras gave Chocolatito a real tough fight last time. Although a rightful winner, the "P4P no.1" looked knackered and battered at the end - understandably as not only is Cuadras a top fighter but also looked naturally bigger and stronger. Or to put it another way, Chocolatito wasn't as effective stepping up to superfly - his 4th weightclass.

Now Srisaket doesn't have the boxing movement/awkwardness of Cuadras, in fact he's an open target for Choco to unleash his awesome combos, but he too is the natural superfly, is a super aggressive lefty - defence is his offense - and can crack ribs and rattle bonces. He was down on the cards but visibly hurt Cuadras several times and wasn't getting totally outclassed when the fight was stopped - due to an axe wound on the Mexican's bonce.

It looks like Srisaket's sparko streak - 38 of his last 39 wins have been by stoppage - is just a typical Thai record, but he's won all his title fights by chinnage too, so over-inflated record or not, there's substance to it. The TD loss to Cuadras is his only blip in the past seven years.

Cuadras said this week - the Thai is much stronger and harder hitting than Choco, it'll be a close fight.

Chocolatito is utterly brilliant and could easily make the Thai look like a mug. However, considering the weightclass, his grueling last fight and the pressure of now being a main attraction (all the extra media shit and stuff), at 9-1 I think it's worth taking a chance this is Barrera-Pac 1.

Incidently Srisaket Sor Rungvisai (The Thai) is called Wisaksil Wangek on my betting slip. Boxing.

I had no idea about this fight and haven't seen the Thai fellow at all, but stoked to hear about it as I'll be watching. Seems like GGG and Gonzales seem to get on the same bill fairly often, can't go wrong there. Cuadras is also fighting in what should be just before this one, so a nice card is almost a guarantee.

Glad he's on the card and huge chance to shine. For all of the talk of 'greats' Chocolatito has seemed a bit sluggish and not hard to catch over last couple. Wangek great numbers but before and after Cuadras he's been knocking over stunt men largely. How'd you like to make your pro debut against a guy 40-4 ;D

I think Chocolatito will only get better at the weight. Cuadras has the wrong idea about him. He'll have more for Cuadras in the return.

Thailand is going through a revival at the lower weight classes in international boxing. This is good since in Thailand international boxing plays 2nd to Muay Thai, which is OK since Muay Thai is part of their national identity and a beautiful art. But perhaps now that the country has 2 active high level champions (Knockout CP Freshmart being the other) the sport will regain some of its popularity and we can see a bit more of their Muay Thai fighters cross over to put up some good fights at the level weights. Due to their Muay Thai background most Thai international boxers are front foot heavy which makes them fan friendly fighters.

On another note sure we can argue the decision. But in my opinion Gonzalez has become too complacent. He needed to lose in order to advance to the next chapter of his career. Now where does this next chapter take him? That's up to him. But I have been noticing psychological and physical regression with him and this is usually a sign of lack of motivation. A competitive loss and a bit of meditation can be the right medicine for this problem.

Holy fuck! Oh yes, this thread is getting shamelessy bumped, and then bumped again, and again and again.

Stole the show - Belter of a fight!!!

Hard as nails and a great performance by the

http://pre00.deviantart.net/abff/th/...ds-d7o88fx.jpg

This thread reminds me of Khaosi Galaxy. Only Thai boxer I remember at that weight.

Mystic Meg strikes again ;D

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Originally Posted by sanatogen

This thread reminds me of Khaosi Galaxy. Only Thai boxer I remember at that weight.

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Khaosi Galaxy was one hell of a Muay Thai fighter and had a ton of fights before switching to western boxing. He was pretty much a fighting machine.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Holy fuck! Oh yes, this thread is getting shamelessy bumped, and then bumped again, and again and again.

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are you going to fill in for ross whilst he is away by constantly mentioning a prediction ?



I bet 2 quid on the thai fellow to ko him... I did not win

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Not seen anyone mention Chocolatito-Srisaket in the Golovkin-Jacobs thread so i'm giving the little basher-genius his own thread.

This is clearly a mismatch, right? The bookies give the typical padded record Thai no chance - he is generally 9/1 just to win. However....

Having a closer look, on a formline through Cuadras those odds are way to big. Cuadras gave Chocolatito a real tough fight last time. Although a rightful winner, the "P4P no.1" looked knackered and battered at the end - understandably as not only is Cuadras a top fighter but also looked naturally bigger and stronger. Or to put it another way, Chocolatito wasn't as effective stepping up to superfly - his 4th weightclass.

Now Srisaket doesn't have the boxing movement/awkwardness of Cuadras, in fact he's an open target for Choco to unleash his awesome combos, but he too is the natural superfly, is a super aggressive lefty - defence is his offense - and can crack ribs and rattle bonces. He was down on the cards but visibly hurt Cuadras several times and wasn't getting totally outclassed when the fight was stopped - due to an axe wound on the Mexican's bonce.

It looks like Srisaket's sparko streak - 38 of his last 39 wins have been by stoppage - is just a typical Thai record, but he's won all his title fights by chinnage too, so over-inflated record or not, there's substance to it. The TD loss to Cuadras is his only blip in the past seven years.

Cuadras said this week - the Thai is much stronger and harder hitting than Choco, it'll be a close fight.

Chocolatito is utterly brilliant and could easily make the Thai look like a mug. However, considering the weightclass, his grueling last fight and the pressure of now being a main attraction (all the extra media shit and stuff), at 9-1 I think it's worth taking a chance this is Barrera-Pac 1.

Incidently Srisaket Sor Rungvisai (The Thai) is called Wisaksil Wangek on my betting slip. Boxing.

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History has proven you totally right. Congrats Fensty, how much did you win with your dared yet well analysed bet?

Really need to find this and watch when I have the time. Used to have and record the US shows when we had Sky and Boxnation HD but Virgin only has Boxnation SD and it is apparently terrible and often virtually unwatchable. Resent paying for that kind of service.

Chocolatito is just not big enough at this weight.

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Originally Posted by Beanz

Really need to find this and watch when I have the time. Used to have and record the US shows when we had Sky and Boxnation HD but Virgin only has Boxnation SD and it is apparently terrible and often virtually unwatchable. Resent paying for that kind of service.

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watch it as it is unbelievable blood fest.

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

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There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

welterweight probly isn't the average size of men anymore

more like super middle or light heavy wouldn't you say?

Super middle or light heavy is more like the average weight men in western countries walk around at. If you look at people from all over the place in fighting shape, I think Fenster is definitely right here. The majority of people have never been fit enough to do 12 rounds, and if they were would be much lighter. A light heavyweight is generally a big man, if they weren't worried about competing in an endurance sport or making the weight they would be well heavier than most.

This was a very good fight. I thought it was fantastic how they would touch gloves/ hug at the end of each round and nod appreciation to each others efforts. I had Gonzalez winning a razor thin decision; a draw at the very least. That Gonzalez is fighting in his forth weight class in his late 20s at these lower divisions shows his class. Quality fight from both guys.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

This was a very good fight. I thought it was fantastic how they would touch gloves/ hug at the end of each round and nod appreciation to each others efforts. I had Gonzalez winning a razor thin decision; a draw at the very least. That Gonzalez is fighting in his forth weight class in his late 20s at these lower divisions shows his class. Quality fight from both guys.

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This is a Thai thing. They do the same while trying to take each others face out with elbows at Lumpini in Muay Thai matches. Thai sparring is also playful and relaxed. They put a big emphasis into keeping tension away during a fight. This does not only breeds this type of sportsmen, but it also breeds huge punchers and fighters with very good stamina.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

---

There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

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I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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Originally Posted by wanderingfighter

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Originally Posted by Alpha

This was a very good fight. I thought it was fantastic how they would touch gloves/ hug at the end of each round and nod appreciation to each others efforts. I had Gonzalez winning a razor thin decision; a draw at the very least. That Gonzalez is fighting in his forth weight class in his late 20s at these lower divisions shows his class. Quality fight from both guys.

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This is a Thai thing. They do the same while trying to take each others face out with elbows at Lumpini in Muay Thai matches. Thai sparring is also playful and relaxed. They put a big emphasis into keeping tension away during a fight. This does not only breeds this type of sportsmen, but it also breeds huge punchers and fighters with very good stamina.

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True but Gonzalez didn't have to oblige him. Huge respect shown by both guys. Great sportsmanship to showcase our sport.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

---

There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

---

I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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Many Thai fighters fight a bunch of times a year to keep active, sometimes against guys making their debut. Calling Wangek a nobody is pretty ignorant and disrespectful to his ability. He was starting to bust up Cuadras before the fight was cut short due to a cut.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

---

There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

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I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.

I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.

Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.

Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

---

There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

---

I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.

I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.

Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.

Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.

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Do not think he is shit fighter or anything but top guy in the world is pretty big claim. Your right just because there less of them and the money not there does not mean there is no talent but it does not help. Do you feel this guy is beating better fighters then Ward Crawford, Kovalev even past it Pacman whooped Bradley ass not long ago . Pound for pound is all subjective I just do not feel he is most talented fighter in the world. Top 10 guy sure i can see that but better then some of talent at weight classes at 140-175 I am not in that line of thinking. The fight was great and all but that guy has some gaps in the defense that he could fight better off the back foot if he was losing exchanges.

Don't quote me but I think the majority had Gonzalez winning. He is fighting naturally bigger guys at a stage in his career when many little guys have already started to slip.

I'm specifically talking about the substance of divisions/weight-classes not P4P. Fair enough if you don't think so and so is P4P, choose whoever you want, there's no right or wrong.

Yes I believe the quality of guys in the lighter divisions is just as good - if not stronger - as other divisions.

Once again... Chocolatito has competed at the highest level among a pool of over 2000 fighters, there's not a lack of talent or competition, they are just not famous fighters, competing in weight-classes that are not heavily supported or popular in the west.

Kovalev has never fought outside lightheavy. That division currently holds just 1100 fighters, so his career competition pool to date is 50% of Chocolatito's.

Just looking at 115 shows the quality of fighters Gonzalez has to compete with. Inoue, Cuadras, Wangek, Estrada, Ancajas, Yafai, McJoe, Concepcion, Inoue's brother, Ishida, Kono, Jimenez, Igarashi, Muranaka, Tso, Casimero. That's not even looking at Chocolatito's record and the guys he's beaten or the other divisions he competed at.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

---

There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

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I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.

I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.

Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.

Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I'm specifically talking about the substance of divisions/weight-classes not P4P. Fair enough if you don't think so and so is P4P, choose whoever you want, there's no right or wrong.

Yes I believe the quality of guys in the lighter divisions is just as good - if not stronger - as other divisions.

Once again... Chocolatito has competed at the highest level among a pool of over 2000 fighters, there's not a lack of talent or competition, they are just not famous fighters, competing in weight-classes that are not heavily supported or popular in the west.

Kovalev has never fought outside lightheavy. That division currently holds just 1100 fighters, so his career competition pool to date is 50% of Chocolatito's.

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Ok but when you look at Crawford he has fought in talent pool of 3858 and has been super dominate while doing so at lw and lww. Anyone that moves between 135 and 147 has huge pool of fighters that compete with way more money. Not to mention 147 that division is deeper and more talented then any division Chocolatito has been in. Crawford is probably most talented fighter I have seen in a while hard time seeing him under that guy at the very least.

Not sure why you think money is relevant to this? But anyway... yes the closer you get to the average size man, the world over, the more populated the weightclass will be.

That's why you see welterweights-middleweights ranging from 5'3 to 6'3. You'll never see a 5'3 heavyweight or a 6'3 flyweight.

It's physically impossible for Chocolatito to compete at welterweight just as it's impossible for Crawford to compete at heavyweight. Hence, P4P. It doesn't matter how skilled they are, the reality is a relatively "poor" heavyweight (in shape, that knows what he's doing) would literally kill them.

Whether or not you think Crawford is better than so and so is your personal choice. Again, there's no right or wrong, we can't prove it. :)

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Not sure why you think money is relevant to this? But anyway... yes the closer you get to the average size man, the world over, the more populated the weightclass will be.

That's why you see welterweights-middleweights ranging from 5'3 to 6'3. You'll never see a 5'3 heavyweight or a 6'3 flyweight.

It's physically impossible for Chocolatito to compete at welterweight just as it's impossible for Crawford to compete at heavyweight. Hence, P4P. It doesn't matter how skilled they are, the reality is a relatively "poor" heavyweight (in shape, that knows what he's doing) would literally kill them.

Whether or not you think Crawford is better than so and so is your personal choice. Again, there's no right or wrong, we can't prove it. :)

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Well that is fair i was talking to Ron on how i felt the comp and talent pool were better in those division and then you quote some of my stuff and i started talking to you. I not sure if you really had strong opinion on it or not just saying were i kinda stood on the subject. As for the money i feel the division with more cash running through them and are more popular attract more talent but that is just my thoughts on it.

Roman Gonzalez vs Srisaket Sor Rungvisai - full fight Video 2017 WBC

I was watching it live on my phone but I had to throw someone out of the club so I missed it. Didn't bother watching it again but I'm going to watch it later

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

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There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

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I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.

I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.

Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.

Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.

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To be fair his name wasn't even used in the title ;D. I'm all about the lighter divisions being equal if not deeper in skill vs heavier weights. Many factors there and familiarity and mere exposure are one. A guy at 105-135 and that neighborhood will be forced to navigate deeper waters simply on everything from network coverage..fan base..the guy having multiple ring names..to the obvious 'unlimited' to 3 lb range in division weight limits. I could not get the memory of Sorjaturong coming in vs Chiquita Gonzalez out of my head last Saturday. He came from absolute obscurity and only claim to fame was being blasted out by great Finito but went on a solid championship run. Sometimes all a guy needs is an honest opportunity and to be doubted. Sucking a fan favorite into your physical fight also helps. Shit even Finito gets doubted as the 'great' he rightfully merits simply on lack of size :-X

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

No i'm far from becoming the new ross - I'm not blissfully unaware that i'm thick as shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

All the division Gonzalez has been in does not even have 800 active fighters in it all between 500-700 fighters.

---

There's over 2000 fighters between strawweight and superfly (the divisions he's fought in). But even if a division has only 500 active fighters at least they have to train and make weight.

There's 1200 heavyweights. What percentage are genuinely skilled boxers/athletes? Loads of them are borderline obese, they have skill but the luxury of not having to train. So I would assume the overall quality of the smaller weights trumps the lack of quantity argument.

It makes sense that welterweight historically provides the best quality and quantity as it's the closest to the average size of all men from all over the world.

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I disagree with you on the skill level just because there faster does not make them more skilled. Not to mention they do not have to worry about being ended in blink of a eye. I was not impressed by a guy going toe to toe with nobody that in his last few fights was going against fighters that where in there debut. If he is going life and death with unknown guy who was fight debut fighters that division makes heavyweight look stacked. I disagree with skill level not many men are that size and there no real money in the division to make people want to cut. Easy to try to say hw is unskilled but it harder to box someone who can end you in punch makes the fight look different.

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I never said heavyweights lacked skill. Obviously a big man will never have the speed, stamina or punch output of a small man but makes up for it with power, longevity, wear and tear. Actual skills, boxing brain, heart, balls, dedication etc is the exact same whether you're 6'6, 240 or 5'3 115.

I was merely rebutting the notion that there's a lack of strength in depth at lighter weights.

Between the entire USA and Europe there are 50 registered flyweights. There are 110 in Japan alone, 141 in Mexico. Obviously the strength in depth is far, far greater depending on the region.

Just because you don't know who the fighters are, they don't get paid 7-figure purses, fight more regular and come from a different culture (non-title bouts in between championship fights were common in the old days of western boxing) doesn't mean they lack quality. Far from it, it's the opposite.

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To be fair his name wasn't even used in the title ;D. I'm all about the lighter divisions being equal if not deeper in skill vs heavier weights. Many factors there and familiarity and mere exposure are one. A guy at 105-135 and that neighborhood will be forced to navigate deeper waters simply on everything from network coverage..fan base..the guy having multiple ring names..to the obvious 'unlimited' to 3 lb range in division weight limits. I could not get the memory of Sorjaturong coming in vs Chiquita Gonzalez out of my head last Saturday. He came from absolute obscurity and only claim to fame was being blasted out by great Finito but went on a solid championship run. Sometimes all a guy needs is an honest opportunity and to be doubted. Sucking a fan favorite into your physical fight also helps. Shit even Finito gets doubted as the 'great' he rightfully merits simply on lack of size :-X

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The lower weights talent pool meaning the classes under bantam weight are shallow and have less competition. Heavyweight has problems as well with it but i fell the talent level is pretty close to what lower weights have. The lower guys are more fluid because they have a lot less weight to carry around and do not have fear power as much. Heavyweight just plain hard because all your talent can be thrown away by a guy who is 230 plus hitting you in face and ending you. My huge thing was after last night and few other fights Choco has had are i do not see this guy being best boxer in world with Ward and Crawford existing in boxing. The whole thing started with Ron saying how great any of those guys look at there forth division which i think is not on same level as guys have to move up in division with much bigger talent pool. Also the fact that 10 pounds makes that many division fucking nuts wish they cut down on them.

Ward arguably lost to Kovalev, most had Gonzalez winning his last fight. I agree we could lose 108 & 105 but the same could be said of 154. "do not have fear power as much" tell that to the guys fighting Inoue. You only have to look at 115 to see how competitive and stacked the division is.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

Ward arguably lost to Kovalev, most had Gonzalez winning his last fight. I agree we could lose 108 & 105 but the same could be said of 154. "do not have fear power as much" tell that to the guys fighting Inoue. You only have to look at 115 to see how competitive and stacked the division is.

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Yea but to be fair to Ward he did not have a life and death fight with a unknown who was fighting guys in there debut fights. Not to mention Kovalev was also undefeated fighter with a lot of title defenses. Oh yea 115 the super stacked division with talent pool of 670 fighters in it. Just because they are competitive with each other does not change the fact that there talent pool compared to the other divisions north of them is worse. I am talking about the power that hw have to be in fear of because getting hit by 230 guy can break the best of chins 115 you do not have worry as much as hw. I do not know why you would question that when i was comparing the lower division with hw with speed and power.

Don't have to fear power? This is a nonsense argument. The very fight this thread was made about is between two geezers that had 80+% KO ratios. The whole reason weightclasses exist is to make FAIR fights between men generally the same size.

You might as well argue that all fights under heavyweight are pointless as no-one, no matter how talented, would beat a good heavyweight.

It also highlights what a complete and utter nonsense P4P is. Chocolatito loses a close, disputed decision, therefore is dropped from the no.1 spot. Ward wins a close, disputed decision yet is elevated in the rankings.

What top "P4P," great fighter has Crawford beat? None! His best wins are Beltran, Postol and Gamboa. Without even ripping apart their records, none are future hall of famers, they're solid world-class fighters between 135-140. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Don't have to fear power? This is a nonsense argument. The very fight this thread was made about is between two geezers that had 80+% KO ratios. The whole reason weightclasses exist is to make FAIR fights between men generally the same size.

You might as well argue that all fights under heavyweight are pointless as no-one, no matter how talented, would beat a good heavyweight.

It also highlights what a complete and utter nonsense P4P is. Chocolatito loses a close, disputed decision, therefore is dropped from the no.1 spot. Ward wins a close, disputed decision yet is elevated in the rankings.

What top "P4P," great fighter has Crawford beat? None! His best wins are Beltran, Postol and Gamboa. Without even ripping apart their records, none are future hall of famers, they're solid world-class fighters between 135-140. That's it.

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I said that the way lower weight classes compared to the heavy weights do not have to worry about power as much on flip side the heavyweights do not have the speed they do. I was talking just about those division because the talent pool of people that size is not as common as the 135-160 i was comparing the divisions. I am comparing talent and fighter talent pool size for division your the one making the thread about pound for pound best.

I am not even really talking about who pound for pound best is anymore i am talking about which division are weaker in there pool of talent. We have no idea who is going to go to hall of fame Choco and as far as Crawford oppents he has beat there still not done with there career yet there are a lot of weaker guys who made the hall so i do not see your point there. Fenster saying who cares about pound for pound when this is your thread talking about a fighter being the pound for pound best.

Jesus fucking christ!!! ;D

Just forget it mate. Yeah the little fellas are not as good as the little-big fellas who are better than the big-big fellas. Crawford is the bestest in the whole world. Done.