Nobody for a long time i think can top what the likes of Floyd, Ali, Tyson Sugar Ray, Hagler RJJ etc have achieved but if you could pick one person, who currently stands out?
Pick one guy who you think has a chance.
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Nobody for a long time i think can top what the likes of Floyd, Ali, Tyson Sugar Ray, Hagler RJJ etc have achieved but if you could pick one person, who currently stands out?
Pick one guy who you think has a chance.
GGG is almost there, his signature victory against Canelo is only weeks away and then he becomes a super star.
GGG unfortunaley will not become a boxing legendQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
neither will Canelo, Crawford, Loma Spence, Thurman or anyone else you can mention.
If you are going to become a superstar an absolute fucking legend then you need need to be well on your way by the time that you are 27/28 and you also need a strong division which will interest people.
GGG beats Canelo, then what???
Crawford hasn't beat anyone mainstream, same as Loma, when I say mainstream I mean a big name that the casual fan knows, and unfortunately for them they are too old now, not too old to be massive stars but too old to hit the heights that certain other boxers have hit.
unfortunately for spence the British casual doesn't appreciate the win, they see it as 'Brook wasn't good enough' (thank you GGG who was 2 weights above Brook, but that doesn't matter to the casual)
The only man that can become a 'boxing legend' at the moment is AJ, and that isn't because he is a 'boxing legend' it is just that he is the most marketable, casual fans don't seem to care about the strength of the heavyweight division as long as you look good.
I've had a drink, a very good fucking drink so I will revisit this tomorrow and edit as I find appropriate, but for now it makes just about enough sense for me to click sumbit
end of the day, it is the casual fans that make a modern day boxing legend because they are the ones that are noticed, mugs like you and me pay our money regardless because we appreciate the fight, the casuals are the ones who get behind the media machine and when a fighter is marketed correctly they will get millions more viewers than just 'a good fight'
blueghgghghghghg
I suppose you gotta do the math, Like say Mikey Garcia Had the youth reach and the height to move up several weights and dominate each division with plenty of epic rematch competitive fights under his belt. Then this would be enough to secure legendary status. However i haven't done the maths.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanGGG unfortunaley will not become a boxing legendQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
neither will Canelo, Crawford, Loma Spence, Thurman or anyone else you can mention.
If you are going to become a superstar an absolute fucking legend then you need need to be well on your way by the time that you are 27/28 and you also need a strong division which will interest people.
I think in this day and age where fighters fight only 2-3 times a year, they can never reach that status. By the time most people turn pro to when they are age 30 they have only fought so many fights. Compared to how many fights active boxers of yesterday fought its nothing.
Canelo however has fought some great fights already and has 49 pro fights at the age of 27. If he somehow beats GGG then he does have a chance of dominating the sport for another 10 years perhaps cementing his legacy.
So until the 16th Sept he still has a chance. Loosing to Floyd at the age of 22 i don't think is enough to damage that rep. GGG is far to old to gain legendary status unless he gets the belt of Saunders then fights about 5 times a year and moves up a couple of weights dominating as he goes.
You are right about the lime light though and AJ is in it. Not for me though.
Crawford is probably the closest at the moment but I don't know if he will ever get there unfortunately. Spence has a decent shot but he probably has to beat Thurman and Crawford at least to get there. It's definitely possible.
Canelo could if somehow he does beat GGG and dominates the MW division, but I just don't think that he will continue to fight the best even if he does beat GGG. But in reality, I think he would become a superstar because of where he is from and not because he is the best in the sport.
At the moment, I see nobody else on the horizon. You never know who could come out of nowhere though like Pacquiao did.
I think Loma still has enough time and opposition available.
Big difference between boxing legend and crossover star. The same things have been written since the dawn of time about every era. Next Tyson? Oscar? Now Floyd? And that's just the past 20 years.
Roy has never been a crossover star, Hagler wasn't recognised until the very end of his career. Remember Floyd was the b-side to Gatti let alone Oscar, it's only the final third of his career that he became crossover (roughly 10 years).
New boxing stars always pop up. Who knew Golovkin 5 years ago? And he's only now having his first "crossover" fight. There's plenty of young fighters a few spectacular breakout wins away from jumping up the ladder. As well as ability you need the right opponents, personality and luck.
Joshua is already crossover (in Britain and worldwide boxing fans) but if he starts cracking Vegas he'll quickly break all Floyd's records (being a heavyweight and all). To have HBO and Showtime competing for him already says it all.
It's a long shot, but I would like to see Ward against GGG. That would certainly help his status. It would be a Pac weight jump kind of achievement and it would be a tough ask, but he is a more intelligent fighter than Kovalev and I can see him having a good go of it. It would make GGG the 3rd best fighter of all time behind Joe Calzaghe and James Toney.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KickMuck
All the guys you listed have one glaring thing in common. They're all American. That's the big factor that goes unsaid. Therefore, in looking at the next "Boxing Legend", one would probably have to start there. Right now that cuts the list way down to....... well..... zero. Why? Because you also need an outlandish personality to match. Floyd, Ali, Tyson... they all had it... and Sugar Ray and RJJ weren't too far off. Not so much Hagler, but then Hagler existed in a golden age for boxing. His list of opponents (like Sugar Ray) reads like a Who's Who of Boxing.
Deontay could've been that guy... but his boxing skills are too crude, and his list of opponents makes one yawn. He's too far along to change that now, so scratch him from the list. Crawford? Too bland of a personality and besides... only hardcore boxing fans know much of him.
So my short answer is no one, at the moment.
Without question it's Anthony Joshua but Fensters bang on about him cracking the USA which means he needs to start fighting there regularly and doing the whole media/tv side that goes with it.
He's already been touted as being the first ever Billionaire sportsman.
Can see him fighting in Africa too and tapping into that market as he's already a massive star in Nigeria which is where his roots are.
Legend's a big word. AJ is already a star.... but "legend"?
He's gonna have to do a bit more than just crack the U.S. market. He's gonna have to be relatively busy. He's gonna need a fair amount of quality opponents who can give him compelling matches. He's gonna need epic matches (all those other guys had theirs). He's already shown he can come back from adversity.... which is another prerequisite.
I'm pulling for AJ. He's a genuinely nice guy, with tons of talent. I can't be more thankful that he and Wlad staged the best heavyweight championship fight in decades. So if AJ's the next legend..... great. But he's got quite a ways to go. I'd like to see him face all the top heavies, including Deontay, who I think he'd most likely beat.
Boxing Legends aren't all about personality...I mean you wouldn't say "That lady ain't much to look at but her personality takes her above the hottest women any day of the week!". Personality is a BONUS, it's not what should be measured.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Personality.....Miguel Cotto ain't got personality but that doesn't keep him from having been a hell of a fighter. Floyd Mayweather Jr's personality is toxic and he's a legend. Tex Cobb had plenty of personality but it didn't make him a great boxer. Hurricane Peter McNeeley had personality and he couldn't box. Naseem Hamed had personality (I guess if that's what you want to call all of that whole deal) and he's not considered a legend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongBoxing Legends aren't all about personality...I mean you wouldn't say "That lady ain't much to look at but her personality takes her above the hottest women any day of the week!". Personality is a BONUS, it's not what should be measured.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Personality.....Miguel Cotto ain't got personality but that doesn't keep him from having been a hell of a fighter. Floyd Mayweather Jr's personality is toxic and he's a legend. Tex Cobb had plenty of personality but it didn't make him a great boxer. Hurricane Peter McNeeley had personality and he couldn't box. Naseem Hamed had personality (I guess if that's what you want to call all of that whole deal) and he's not considered a legend.
Personality is an ingredient. It can be good (SRL) or bad (Floyd). No, it's not the only thing..... but it helps. You're right about Cotto. But one thing that helped him was his learning English through a lot of effort, gaining him the appreciation of many Stateside fans.
Maybe it's just me personally but all I care about is the guy having big fights and winning big fights.....personality doesn't do much in a ring unless you're a pro wrestlerQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMaybe it's just me personally but all I care about is the guy having big fights and winning big fights.....personality doesn't do much in a ring unless you're a pro wrestlerQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I agree 100%. But we're talking what makes a legend. Personality, whether we like it or not, tends to have a bearing on that. Imagine Ali without the personality.
You mean I'd judge him on his record?!?! My God, the HORROR......it would mean that......JOE LOUIS was the true ALL-TIME GREAT! (which is exactly what I believe anyway)Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMaybe it's just me personally but all I care about is the guy having big fights and winning big fights.....personality doesn't do much in a ring unless you're a pro wrestlerQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I agree 100%. But we're talking what makes a legend. Personality, whether we like it or not, tends to have a bearing on that. Imagine Ali without the personality.
Later in this thread I think you get "legend" mixed up with "superstar". Superstars sell, legends achieve. Part of what you say above is true, that legends tend to be Americans. But that is not from their ability to sell, it is the demands we put on them. Look at Spence, the minute he beat Brook people started clamoring for him to fight GGG. The request is unfair, but par for the course here. Or look at Gervonta Davis, as soon as he won his title people called for him to fight Loma. He may never be ready for that but he certainly isn't yet but people called for it. Or you can look at a recent foreign fighter like Calzaghe who had the talent to become a legend but didn't make the moves to become a legend. Great fighter, yes, legend, no. Because he didn't search out the opponents to become a legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by KickMuck
All the guys you listed have one glaring thing in common. They're all American. That's the big factor that goes unsaid. Therefore, in looking at the next "Boxing Legend", one would probably have to start there. Right now that cuts the list way down to....... well..... zero. Why? Because you also need an outlandish personality to match. Floyd, Ali, Tyson... they all had it... and Sugar Ray and RJJ weren't too far off. Not so much Hagler, but then Hagler existed in a golden age for boxing. His list of opponents (like Sugar Ray) reads like a Who's Who of Boxing.
Deontay could've been that guy... but his boxing skills are too crude, and his list of opponents makes one yawn. He's too far along to change that now, so scratch him from the list. Crawford? Too bland of a personality and besides... only hardcore boxing fans know much of him.
So my short answer is no one, at the moment.
Sometimes people don't get the chance, sometimes people don't have the ability, sometimes people don't make the chances. But many foreign fighters became legends because they did make the opportunity and the achievements. Duran, Arguello, Chavez, Lewis, Pacquiao, Morales etcetera.
That's why I suggested earlier that Loma might do it. He might have the talent, he surely has the opposition available. I'm not sure if he'll ever be a superstar, since Pacquiao and Crawfords numbers on the same platform destroyed his numbers. But he has the opportunity to be a legend.
I think GGG had the chance but he missed it by not fighting Ward before. Rigo had the chance but not the opportunity. Spence and Crawford will have the opportunity but will they have the ability? Ward has the opportunity but does he have the desire? Usyk has the opportunity but does he have the ability? AJ has the opportunity but will he have the opponents? Let's not forget Inoue, he has the ability but will he make the necessary moves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonLater in this thread I think you get "legend" mixed up with "superstar". Superstars sell, legends achieve. Part of what you say above is true, that legends tend to be Americans. But that is not from their ability to sell, it is the demands we put on them. Look at Spence, the minute he beat Brook people started clamoring for him to fight GGG. The request is unfair, but par for the course here. Or look at Gervonta Davis, as soon as he won his title people called for him to fight Loma. He may never be ready for that but he certainly isn't yet but people called for it. Or you can look at a recent foreign fighter like Calzaghe who had the talent to become a legend but didn't make the moves to become a legend. Great fighter, yes, legend, no. Because he didn't search out the opponents to become a legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by KickMuck
All the guys you listed have one glaring thing in common. They're all American. That's the big factor that goes unsaid. Therefore, in looking at the next "Boxing Legend", one would probably have to start there. Right now that cuts the list way down to....... well..... zero. Why? Because you also need an outlandish personality to match. Floyd, Ali, Tyson... they all had it... and Sugar Ray and RJJ weren't too far off. Not so much Hagler, but then Hagler existed in a golden age for boxing. His list of opponents (like Sugar Ray) reads like a Who's Who of Boxing.
Deontay could've been that guy... but his boxing skills are too crude, and his list of opponents makes one yawn. He's too far along to change that now, so scratch him from the list. Crawford? Too bland of a personality and besides... only hardcore boxing fans know much of him.
So my short answer is no one, at the moment.
Sometimes people don't get the chance, sometimes people don't have the ability, sometimes people don't make the chances. But many foreign fighters became legends because they did make the opportunity and the achievements. Duran, Arguello, Chavez, Lewis, Pacquiao, Morales etcetera.
That's why I suggested earlier that Loma might do it. He might have the talent, he surely has the opposition available. I'm not sure if he'll ever be a superstar, since Pacquiao and Crawfords numbers on the same platform destroyed his numbers. But he has the opportunity to be a legend.
I think GGG had the chance but he missed it by not fighting Ward before. Rigo had the chance but not the opportunity. Spence and Crawford will have the opportunity but will they have the ability? Ward has the opportunity but does he have the desire? Usyk has the opportunity but does he have the ability? AJ has the opportunity but will he have the opponents? Let's not forget Inoue, he has the ability but will he make the necessary moves?
Both terms are open to interpretation. But IMO legend surpasses superstar. There's been many more superstars than legends. To be a legend, you almost have to be a superstar first. In that regard I would disagree with your assessment that superstars "sell" while legends "achieve". Again, I consider superstardom a step on the way to legend. Some make it..... most don't. And again..... many factors have to come together to form a legend. Ability, achievements, superstar opponents and epic fights, desire, overcoming adversity, etc, etc, etc.
Today's fighters have more of an uphill climb to get to legend. Back in the day, SRL would no sooner fight a Benitez, when soon after he'd be fighting a Hearns..... or a Duran, a legend in his own right. There seemed to be a lot less empty posturing back then. Fights flowed. It almost took an act of Congress to get Floyd and Pacquiao together in the ring. It's all for profit's sake of course, but it waters down the achievements of today's stars when compared to the stars of yesterday.
I agree legend surpasses superstar. But I don't think it's absolutely necessary to be a superstar. I don't remember Ricardo Lopez being a superstar, but I would call him a legend. I think generally yes they must be a superstar to attract the opponents. Like Mikey Garcia is looking at Danny Garcia and Cotto, but not looking at Spence because Spence isn't worth the trouble right now. But if Spence can beat a Thurman or Crawford he has the backup confirmation to the Brook fight, his "star" rises and fights will become more available.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonLater in this thread I think you get "legend" mixed up with "superstar". Superstars sell, legends achieve. Part of what you say above is true, that legends tend to be Americans. But that is not from their ability to sell, it is the demands we put on them. Look at Spence, the minute he beat Brook people started clamoring for him to fight GGG. The request is unfair, but par for the course here. Or look at Gervonta Davis, as soon as he won his title people called for him to fight Loma. He may never be ready for that but he certainly isn't yet but people called for it. Or you can look at a recent foreign fighter like Calzaghe who had the talent to become a legend but didn't make the moves to become a legend. Great fighter, yes, legend, no. Because he didn't search out the opponents to become a legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by KickMuck
All the guys you listed have one glaring thing in common. They're all American. That's the big factor that goes unsaid. Therefore, in looking at the next "Boxing Legend", one would probably have to start there. Right now that cuts the list way down to....... well..... zero. Why? Because you also need an outlandish personality to match. Floyd, Ali, Tyson... they all had it... and Sugar Ray and RJJ weren't too far off. Not so much Hagler, but then Hagler existed in a golden age for boxing. His list of opponents (like Sugar Ray) reads like a Who's Who of Boxing.
Deontay could've been that guy... but his boxing skills are too crude, and his list of opponents makes one yawn. He's too far along to change that now, so scratch him from the list. Crawford? Too bland of a personality and besides... only hardcore boxing fans know much of him.
So my short answer is no one, at the moment.
Sometimes people don't get the chance, sometimes people don't have the ability, sometimes people don't make the chances. But many foreign fighters became legends because they did make the opportunity and the achievements. Duran, Arguello, Chavez, Lewis, Pacquiao, Morales etcetera.
That's why I suggested earlier that Loma might do it. He might have the talent, he surely has the opposition available. I'm not sure if he'll ever be a superstar, since Pacquiao and Crawfords numbers on the same platform destroyed his numbers. But he has the opportunity to be a legend.
I think GGG had the chance but he missed it by not fighting Ward before. Rigo had the chance but not the opportunity. Spence and Crawford will have the opportunity but will they have the ability? Ward has the opportunity but does he have the desire? Usyk has the opportunity but does he have the ability? AJ has the opportunity but will he have the opponents? Let's not forget Inoue, he has the ability but will he make the necessary moves?
Both terms are open to interpretation. But IMO legend surpasses superstar. There's been many more superstars than legends. To be a legend, you almost have to be a superstar first. In that regard I would disagree with your assessment that superstars "sell" while legends "achieve". Again, I consider superstardom a step on the way to legend. Some make it..... most don't. And again..... many factors have to come together to form a legend. Ability, achievements, superstar opponents and epic fights, desire, overcoming adversity, etc, etc, etc.
Today's fighters have more of an uphill climb to get to legend. Back in the day, SRL would no sooner fight a Benitez, when soon after he'd be fighting a Hearns..... or a Duran, a legend in his own right. There seemed to be a lot less empty posturing back then. Fights flowed. It almost took an act of Congress to get Floyd and Pacquiao together in the ring. It's all for profit's sake of course, but it waters down the achievements of today's stars when compared to the stars of yesterday.
Inoue will be introduced to the American audience next Saturday, he already has a decent resume and the perfect opponents to make the next step. And he's young. KO win Saturday, KO of Chocolatito and he's well on his way.
Hahaha! Ali without the personality? Erm still an obvious legend. Someone seems to want reality TV star over sublime and great boxer. The resume speaks for itself. Ali could be mute and people would probably like him more and say 'Wow, what a record'. Same with Tyson. People liked the style and early on he acted pretty likeable. Saying you are going to eat some babies isn't what makes you a legend. Making great fights makes the legend. Pac has no personality really. It was the spectacular fights that got him there too.
I really hope Crawford does it. He is still young and an incredible talent. At this point he is more of a boxing fan star but personally I would love to see him make it.
"Personality" doesn't just mean flash big mouth. Wlad played/is the perfect gentleman/sportsman, a role model, someone to look up to. Cue Joshua.