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How would you have fought them knowing what you know now..
Here are some we all know..please add more to the list.
1. Floyd Mayweather.
2. Andre Ward.
3. Joe Calzaghe.
4. Edwin Valero.
Throw yourself back to each of their greatest fights and you have the advantage of hindsight etc..what flaws could you expose..
Reid and Hopkins caught Calzaghe with the straight right all night so I'd work on the timing the right hand. I'd hold inside to break his rhythm and repeat that (counter right hand and hold)
That's how prime Hopkins and Ward would beat him but Jones could just jump in and light the guy up with whatever he wanted (he'd need no game plan)
Shame Hopkins and Roy couldn't do it to Calzaghe in real life.
To beat Valero just watch Joan Guzman (from that era).
Both were past their best once Calzaghe fought them to be fair. And Hopkins still made it close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
To be fair Calzaghe was past his best too. Hopkins was a close-ish fight depending on your scoring preference, Roy got Roy'd. Coulda, woulda, shoulda but that was real life.
Yea we all know that wasn't the Roy of old. I give him credit for the Hopkins win because he was still a crafty mofo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Hopkins stunk the place out with his negative tactics I am glad Joe just punched his way to a deserved victory because there was no way Hopkins should have been allowed to win with all his dirty tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaYea we all know that wasn't the Roy of old. I give him credit for the Hopkins win because he was still a crafty mofo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
1. Floyd Mayweather - slick southpaws who could punch the only one I can think of it Sweet Pea
2. Andre Ward - Roy Jones who would not get suckered into a grappling match and distance, speed and power.
3. Joe Calzaghe - At light heavy big right hand Tommy Hearns at Supermiddle Ward grappling and slowing down Joe.
4. Edwin Valero - Manny Pac, fight fire with fire plus speed, endurance and punch power.
Floyd would struggle with Hearns, Leonard and Robinson because they're all bigger men (with comparable skill) Floyd really should be compared to Chavez, Whitaker, Pryor, Argullo and Sanchez as they're all more his size. Pressure fighters have had the best results against Floyd (Castillo and Maidana) so I'd give Chavez and Pryor the best chance of beating him.
Valero never reached the top of boxing and too be honest I think he'd have come up short if he did because he wasn't hard to find and he could be hurt. A good defensive fighter would probably shut him down and a good offensive fighter would probably light him up.
1. Floyd Mayweather Jr: Floyd is an EXCEPTIONAL talent, amazing, incredible, other wordly....but there have been fighters that good before and they have lost before. I do believe a couple of styles of fighters COULD beat him though as flashy as Floyd was over his career he was also cagey and one of the smartest fighters to ever lace up gloves so he never allowed that to happen. The "how do you beat him?" question is one specific to style of fighter...ie "What are we working with?" with fighters like Duran or Cotto or Leonard you'd want steady pressure applied with scoring jabs followed with bursts of letting the hands go followed with slick boxing you'd want a minute of each in each round. With someone like Tommy Hearns or Shane Mosely or Paul Williams you'd want to score with the jab (notice something?) create and control distance where Floyd would need to follow you and then you set traps for him (that's a Teddy Atlas line if I've ever written one!) walk Floyd into a punch (very very difficult to do which is why nobody did it). With a freak of a fighter like Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Sweet Pea Whittaker, Henry Armstrong, or Lomachenko or Emmanuel Augustus you'd want to knock Floyd out of his rhythm, you'd want to shoot lead crosses and uppercuts, let the hands go but this is playing with fire, this is just waiting for Floyd to catch you with a hook or uppercut....ah but feint! Land first and hard, then you can begin feinting, when Floyd tries to score any points back with clean effective punching you MUST counter and hard....this is a 4D chess match played on a rollercoaster near an active volcano, the highest of high stakes, destined to be a lot of waiting and thinking but if fought with a sense of urgency it would be a beautiful thing to behold. I do still think Floyd's Father Floyd Sr. and Uncle Roger have given the best examples on how to stop Floyd's style...it's just the same as when Mike Tyson was around and "unbeatable" nobody all that great fought in the manner you'd have to fight for 12 rounds in order to beat him. Buster Douglas blueprinted that.....the Mayweather style has restrictions, only nobody Floyd has fought so far has exposed those and that's no disrespect to Floyd's skill, he's raised the bar for everyone around 130-154.
2. Andre Ward: Look at Bernard Hopkins....how you beat him is how you beat Andre Ward only Ward is still young enough to be extremely fast so anything you did with BHop you'd have to do harder against Ward AND watch out for returning fire.
3. Joe Calzaghe: You beat Calzaghe the way you beat Pernell Whittaker or Naseem Hamed...lead right hands, bully him, wrestle
4. Edwin Valero: Know that he's swinging for the fences, know that he's great to the body, stick and move pure and simple this is the old hit and don't get hit game sweet science. Make sure your footwork is right, when he's in close you smother his attack, when he's at distance you feint in land a few and tie up. Bully him with the jab if it's in your arsenal.
That's a good view of things EK.
ABSOLUTELY agree on Hearns, Leonard, Robinson, and hell for me throw in Tito Trinidad, Paul Williams, Sergio Martinez, Vernon Forrest, and Antonio Margarito for that matter. All well skilled and very big...at the very least it would be interesting to see how Floyd would operate without height and reach advantages and vs guys who not only could box but could throw bombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaMo
Julio Cesar Chavez did make short work of Uncle Roger so he should know the style pretty well. Aaron Pryor and a Prime Shane Mosley would have given Floyd problems, but I think given that the angels of their punches I think that works to Floyd's advantage. I'd also say Meldrick Taylor would have had a shot vs Floyd, big time speed, good pop, a willingness to trade but a guy who burned out too fast.
Alright then......what about Ike Ibeabuchi? Everybody's favorite "What if?" :rolleyes:
For what it is worth I think Evander Holyfield would have made him look silly, Lennox Lewis as well,....at that time, Mike Tyson.....meeeh probably not a fight Tyson would have taken but he could have won IMO I mean we'd all expect Tyson to have beaten David Tua right? So why not Ike?
Ike Ibeabuchi would have lost to Lennox in 1999 but think he had enough to beat Tyson and possibly Holyfield.
Evander's ability to counter punch and his ability to take punishment and his ability to box....I think he'd really expose Ike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Again other fighters like Ike, from his country, similar styles: Samuel Peter, David Izon, Friday Ahunaya, etc those guys could look amazing but then after a while they were found out. I believe Ike Ibeabuchi would eventually have been found out.
I think Evander was just past his best then although he gave a good showing against Lennox in the rematch.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongEvander's ability to counter punch and his ability to take punishment and his ability to box....I think he'd really expose Ike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Again other fighters like Ike, from his country, similar styles: Samuel Peter, David Izon, Friday Ahunaya, etc those guys could look amazing but then after a while they were found out. I believe Ike Ibeabuchi would eventually have been found out.
He wouldn't have to be his best IMO....after the Tua fight it was going to go downhill quickly for IkeQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think Evander was just past his best then although he gave a good showing against Lennox in the rematch.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongEvander's ability to counter punch and his ability to take punishment and his ability to box....I think he'd really expose Ike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Again other fighters like Ike, from his country, similar styles: Samuel Peter, David Izon, Friday Ahunaya, etc those guys could look amazing but then after a while they were found out. I believe Ike Ibeabuchi would eventually have been found out.
Yes it did but if he stayed mentally healthy he would have been the second best heavyweight at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongHe wouldn't have to be his best IMO....after the Tua fight it was going to go downhill quickly for IkeQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think Evander was just past his best then although he gave a good showing against Lennox in the rematch.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongEvander's ability to counter punch and his ability to take punishment and his ability to box....I think he'd really expose Ike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Again other fighters like Ike, from his country, similar styles: Samuel Peter, David Izon, Friday Ahunaya, etc those guys could look amazing but then after a while they were found out. I believe Ike Ibeabuchi would eventually have been found out.
I'm not even talking about his psychological troubles. Chris Byrd had 26 fights when he fought Ike, Tua was young when he fought Ike and they both messed up vs Ike....Byrd was a guy who wouldn't block punches, he'd make you miss, Tua wouldn't box he'd slug....now put a more versatile boxer in there and boom Ike Ibeabuchi is dead average just like: Sam Peter, just like David Izon, just like Friday Ahunaya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
That was coming.
Sam Peter was 24-0-0 before he ran into Wlad. David Izon was 18-0-0 before he ran into Maurice Wheeler. Friday Ahunaya was 16-0-0 before coming across Liakhovovich.....and Ike Ibeabuchi was 20-0-0 and running out of youngsters and tomato cans to fight he was going to be found out and my guess is Holyfield, Lewis, etc would have done it.
I think Ike was better because he beat very good prospects in Tua and Byrd but if Vitali was around then he would have lost to him. (just checked Vitali was around and lost to Byrd).Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI'm not even talking about his psychological troubles. Chris Byrd had 26 fights when he fought Ike, Tua was young when he fought Ike and they both messed up vs Ike....Byrd was a guy who wouldn't block punches, he'd make you miss, Tua wouldn't box he'd slug....now put a more versatile boxer in there and boom Ike Ibeabuchi is dead average just like: Sam Peter, just like David Izon, just like Friday Ahunaya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
That was coming.
Sam Peter was 24-0-0 before he ran into Wlad. David Izon was 18-0-0 before he ran into Maurice Wheeler. Friday Ahunaya was 16-0-0 before coming across Liakhovovich.....and Ike Ibeabuchi was 20-0-0 and running out of youngsters and tomato cans to fight he was going to be found out and my guess is Holyfield, Lewis, etc would have done it.
Again...Tua pure slugger, Byrd pure boxer....take a 50/50 guy at a title contender/champion level and Ike loses but that's my opinion on him. I watched other fighters, similar styles, similar build, similar fight plans build up a run of wins and then turn to absolute shit once they hit the big league. Sure wins over Tua and Byrd are more impressive than anything the aforementioned fighters did, but those guys were very young at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think Ike was better because he beat very good prospects in Tua and Byrd but if Vitali was around then he would have lost to him. (just checked Vitali was around and lost to Byrd).Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI'm not even talking about his psychological troubles. Chris Byrd had 26 fights when he fought Ike, Tua was young when he fought Ike and they both messed up vs Ike....Byrd was a guy who wouldn't block punches, he'd make you miss, Tua wouldn't box he'd slug....now put a more versatile boxer in there and boom Ike Ibeabuchi is dead average just like: Sam Peter, just like David Izon, just like Friday Ahunaya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
That was coming.
Sam Peter was 24-0-0 before he ran into Wlad. David Izon was 18-0-0 before he ran into Maurice Wheeler. Friday Ahunaya was 16-0-0 before coming across Liakhovovich.....and Ike Ibeabuchi was 20-0-0 and running out of youngsters and tomato cans to fight he was going to be found out and my guess is Holyfield, Lewis, etc would have done it.
Vitali lost to Byrd due to injury, no big deal IMO. But yes Vitali vs Ibeabuchi would have been something to see.