Is VADA too strict?

Is it? It seems as if these tests are very, VERY hard to beat. All athletes need supplements. But, in Luis Ortiz's case, if the case can be made that he was taking blood pressure medicine- yea, I know, a stretch...but...- then how many other things that people take and eat regularly that may be on a banned list, or a concoction of LEGIT supplements can turn into a banned substance in the system?!

I think the PED issue is a real issue, but only for the fighter who takes anabolic steroids and synthetic steroids. But, guys who take legit medicines and/or supplements that are NATURAL, then what are we to say??

How can you be too strict? Don’t cheat and you’ll be fine! Cheaters should be exposed and I don’t believe Ortiz bull shit excuses.

They are not strict enough. Life ban for people caught willfully cheating and criminal prosecution for assault with a deadly weapon.

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Originally Posted by GaMo

How can you be too strict? Don’t cheat and you’ll be fine! Cheaters should be exposed and I don’t believe Ortiz bull shit excuses.

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Best post you ever made.

There not strict enough...too many supplements if you ask me.

No. Ortiz didn't help himself having a track record either.

But some of these drugs and supplements can be found in almost anything?! Who is to say a 30 plus year old man can't have high blood pressure? Not that it is what Ortiz did, but why on earth are some of these banned anyway?! Some of them have no negative side effects and are just banned substances for being banned sake?!

I think the medical world is caught up in a trade war between Russia, USA and Europe. Just like with certain foods, drinks you cannot import or export into either said country because of this, that and the third.

WADA has substances on their list that aere banned- like the meldonium caught in Povetkin's sample that threw off his fight with Wilder- but are not banned by the USA or VADA. With VADA being totally different from WADA and with that both of them different from US standards.

It's too much goepolitics in this shit.

People assume VADA to be the standard because Floyd popularized it against Manny, when VADA and the other doping agencies may just be a good PR gimick. Floyd himself has tested POSITIVE for diuretics- the same stuff you use to increase urine to help mask other doping agents.

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Originally Posted by ykdadamaja

People assume VADA to be the standard because Floyd popularized it against Manny, when VADA and the other doping agencies may just be a good PR gimick. Floyd himself has tested POSITIVE for diuretics- the same stuff you use to increase urine to help mask other doping agents.

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Did he?

I thought he was using IV blood into his system to recover more quickly.

He has numbed up his hands for fights I know that much and that seems slightly wrong

Couple of things to note:

Floyd uses USADA not VADA, because USADA was in his pocket and wrote him exemptions for stuff like the IV he received before the pac fight. VADA is the more stringent of the two and run by Dr. Margaret Goodman. The ring doctor in vegas for many fights in the 90's (working in tandem with Flip Homansky)

-High blood pressure medications keep the arteries open and so the heart doesn't have to work as hard to get oxygenated blood to the organs which means it does the same for muscles. This will save someone from a heart attack or stroke but could benefit a healthy person in a training regimen. Just because you have it prescribed to you to fix an issue, doesn't mean your not receiving the benefits of the medicine. One could easily ask what a person naturally in danger of a heart attack or stroke (without the meds) is doing getting punched in the head/chest for a living. As Spicoli said, Ortiz has been popped before...

I think the WADA has a much broader list because they are charged with regulating international competition like the Olympics and world championships and people take that super seriously because its not about paychecks (its endorsements possible for the athletes) but for countries its all about nationalistic pride (which leads to morale, control, compliance) so countries do anything to get their athletes to the medal ceremony.

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

Couple of things to note:

Floyd uses USADA not VADA, because USADA was in his pocket and wrote him exemptions for stuff like the IV he received before the pac fight. VADA is the more stringent of the two and run by Dr. Margaret Goodman. The ring doctor in vegas for many fights (working in tandem with Flip Homansky)

-High blood pressure medication keep the arteries open and so the heart doesn't have to work as hard to get oxygenated blood to the organs which means it does the same for muscles. This will save from a heart attack or stroke but could benefit a healthy person in a training regimen. Just because you have it prescribed to you to fix an issue, doesn't mean your not receiving the benefits of the medicine. One could easily ask what a person naturally in danger of a heart attack or stroke (without the meds) is doing getting punched in the head/chest for a living. As Spicoli said, Ortiz has been popped before...

I think the WADA has a much broader list because they are charged with regulating international competition like the Olympics and world championships and people take that super seriously because its not about paychecks (its endorsements possible for the athletes) but for countries its all about nationalistic pride (which leads to morale, control, compliance) so countries do anything to get their athletes to the medal ceremony.

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Ortiz was caught for the very same thing. Thiazide.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

He has numbed up his hands for fights I know that much and that seems slightly wrong

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That too. And, his excuse is/was as crazy as Ortiz's excuse: His was that he got an IV diuretic because he wanted to recover faster. That IS why people take PEDs in the first place- to give them an advantage. In his case it was recuperative powers. In the case of Ortiz, he wanted to ease his blood pressure.

But, my issue is that some of these things guys are getting popped for CAN and ARE used for medical purposes.

To clear a few more things up.

WADA is World Anti-Doping Agency. They set international standards. They don’t do any actual testing, they are overseers. For example they investigated the whole Russian Sochi scandal, they oversaw the testing, but the testing was done by RUSADA-Russian Anti-Doping Agency.

In US testing is done by USADA, WADA sets USADAs standards. But boxing doesn’t fall under WADAs supervision. So when USADA got into boxing they chose how it was done.

VADA was designed specifically for boxing so of course it is better in a boxing specific sense. But even they have different standards. For their protocol to truly be effective fighters need to be in the year round testing pool but very very few are.

And people that suggest USADA cares about Floyd’s money have no idea how much money is at stake.

What does your last comment mean Ron?

It means if WADA determined that USADA was colluding with test subjects they could force their grant to be pulled until new players are in charge. What USADA gets from all boxers combined is nothing compared to their grant money.

Bit of a weird thread. Im sure it's not the intended message, but all I get from it is, it's OK to cheat a bit isn't it?

Any drugs test should be difficult to beat no? If you disclose prescribed drugs to whoever is doing the testing, you have no issue, if you dont, you do. Im no chemistry expert, but combining two safe elements to create a hybrid banned one? Testosterone is natural. Is it OK to be jacked up to the eyeballs on it?

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Bit of a weird thread. Im sure it's not the intended message, but all I get from it is, it's OK to cheat a bit isn't it?

Any drugs test should be difficult to beat no? If you disclose prescribed drugs to whoever is doing the testing, you have no issue, if you dont, you do. Im no chemistry expert, but combining two safe elements to create a hybrid banned one? Testosterone is natural. Is it OK to be jacked up to the eyeballs on it?

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My thing is that the lists are so long and confusing that anyone can cheat. When a drug can be confused with blood thinners or blood pressure medicine; and when some drugs are on some lists but not on all lists by country; and even worst when some agencies, even within country, have different lists and standards, we have a serious problem that NO ATHLETE should be forced to think about when getting prepared for a FIGHT.

Sports like tennis, cycling and basketball, where the impact of contact is relatively low or softer, you can concentrate on that and do your job. But HIGH IMPACT, full time contact sports like Boxing, UFC, American Football, while conventional wisdom states that guys on PEDs injure more people- even though the evidence does not suggest that and that they are more a danger to themselves than their opponent, particularly in the long term- YOU DO NOT HAVE THE TIME TO MONITOR THAT WHEN YOUR LIFE IS ON THE LINE!!

And, for figs sake: If I have a feeling that the sport is rife with stoked up PED'os (PEDs they CLEARLY cannot stop), I would WANT things that either cause my body to heal quicker or puts me in a situation where I can train harder to protect my body and life.

Take the politics out, reduce the banned list, keep it simple-stupid and move on.

I can honestly see why some athletes state that they do not know what their trainer gives them. It is a matter of trust, just like how you trust your coach or team owner. Now, that is not to say that Ortiz did not know what he was taking. But it is to say that you simply should not be made to worry about that when your life is on the line.

And I don't particularly think the idea of calling guys out for VADA or any kind of dope-testing means that it makes the person calling the other person out any better. You simply can call for it when you KNOW you are either clean or not on it at that particular moment, so within weeks before the first test you can test clean legitimately.

I CAN PUT MY HEAD ON A CHOPPING BLOCK and state that guys who make the first call for Dope-Testing are slightly overweight, but not necessarily out of shape. A guy who fights at 147, but jacked to the sky walking around at about 160 or more. Then they near kill themselves weight draining to make weight.... smt....

Floyd was HELLA SMART for calling his fight days around certain times of the year. May or September, so he KNEW when he should have his body ready to fight and be trained to fight. The last fight of any significance Floyd had OUTSIDE OF THE May or September dates was the Hatton fight- which right afterwards he announced his year long retirement. Coincidence?
:-X

They have enough time to check that if they wanted to, they cant be bothered that's why they have trainers, managers, etc. Everything is fine and good till they get caught and then people start pointing fingers. The promoter blames the team, the manager blames the trainer, the trainer catches the worst of it even though he doesn't know what the fighter does outside the gym. There has to be a 0 tolerance policy starting with the fighter (im a natural fighter but coach the doc said i need these pills for my heart, blood, iron, whatever), then the trainer (tell your managers to contact the doping agencies and file for exemptions, etc), then the manager (I would contact the doping agency but the promoter says to go through him since he knows a guy), then the promoter (get the money first and then worry about controversy after.)

Now fighters get too lazy because they're out pissing their money away or figuring the world needs them so they'll get a pass... The trainer figures that's not my job. The training is the same with or without drugs.) .... The manager says (that's a drug/substance issue, i just do the paper work let the promoter smooth it over he has all the influence..... The promoter says this happens all the time, we'll pay someone to release a B sample that's clean.... The ball can be dropped any number of places if this is how they plan to play it. This is why fighters with the stronger teams have the least amount of problems. On teams where everyone's b*tching about their cut... the solution is always to cut out another member of the team.