Hawk Time.
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Hawk Time.
Good question. If he moves up in weight, I give Hearns and Leonard the advantage. Duran at 140 is very interesting, assuming Duran is in shape and focused. Sweet Pea Whitaker and Floyd are interesting at 140 from a pure boxer vs swarmer perspective. Henry Armstrong vs Pryor is a fan’s dream fight. Other than those guys, I can’t think of many who would beat him.
Chavez was great but I think Pryor overwhelms him (maybe not a stoppage, but just out works Chavez). Oscar and Kostyra both gas in the later rounds vs Hawk, and Terrance Crawford doesn’t appear to have anything that would discourage him. Have to think more on who would stand a chance vs a prime Aaron Pryor.
Seeing how wild and reckless he is in 1982, of recent fighters I'd say Lucas Matthysse and Maidana would have blasted the charlie straight out of him inside a few rounds. He nearly got himself knocked out against Kameda.
Arguello perhaps If Pryor didn’t cheat. You don’t “mix” water, and water doesn’t have color
Not many. Pryor would have given every ATG a tough time. I would have loved to see a Meldrick Taylor or Duran fight.
This guy is beating nearly every great 140-pounder in history? Lets bear in mind, Kameda never got past Japanese title level, Terry Marsh stopped him. Terry Marsh.
Now I ain't saying Pryor wasn't a brilliant fighter, but to think today's fighters couldn't live with your boyhood heroes is ridiculous.
Try watching with a clean slate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ-aZMpp4B0
Terry Marsh would have beaten Pryor after watching that video.
Pryor dismantled one of boxing's ATGs in Alexis Arguello. Not once, but twice. But hey... he had a rough night against Akio Kameda, so now that I think about it, he's shit. Hell... today's 140-pounders would've swept the floor with him. :rolleyes: FFS.
If worshiping boyhood heroes is bad, blinders to every great fighter in history is even worse. But then I saw this coming with the argument that Ali-Frazier I wasn't that big of a HW title fight. :vd:
Big questions marks about Pryor now, i have watched most of his fights many times and he looks wired against Arguello both times, but he was fighting a smaller guy and still got hit a lot.
I used to think he would beat Leonard, but i have altered my opinion on that, Leonard wins a clear decision IMO. Duran in 1979/80 after moving up would've landed a huge shot and probably knocked him out.
Pryor was aggressive and attacking, but woefully reckless. Duran was aggressive, but he was far more measured and a far better boxer.
Mosley beats him, DLH beats him, Tszyu may knock him out in the first or 2nd round! Floyd doesn't lose a round.
If Castillo and Maidana put hands on Floyd, Pryor f-cks him up.
A guy like Loi would on the other hand.
Not sure I'd go as far as picking all the greats to beat him but it really is hard to see a guy so careless/clueless/wild, that is struggling with below elite class competition having much success against modern greats.
Just look how he CONSTANTLY squares up and rightly gets punished? He is literally running face first at fighters. To his credit he is crazy tough, but it's hard to envisage a Mosley, Oscar, Kostya, Floyd, Pac, etc, not making him severely pay, he's begging for one straight down the pipe, the difference being I highly doubt they'd let him off the hook.
Dujuan Johnson lost two from his next four before getting shot dead, this was the only time he ever fought in world-class. Now i'm not saying he was a poor fighter, but if he's rocking and rolling Pryor all over the shop, you're not selling me that the man is walking through all the greats in history just because he "beat" Arguello.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8rNOyWaJGk&t=1735s
These days, with the mountain of video evidence available, there's no excuses for lazy, parroted opinions masquerading as original thought or knowledge.
Pryor may well have been the best 140-pounder in history, however, it is not a crime that some of us believe otherwise. And attempt to offer some form of evidence to explain our thoughts.
Hope this helps.
Spot on Tito one bad performance does not make you a shit fighter in boxing one bad performance or you loose a fight boxing fans are quick to say a fighter is finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Boxing fans are a funny breed but its how it goes.:)
The Hawk never moved up in his prime and his division was pretty baron his best win is over a great fighter but he was way over his peak weight. I mean the golden era of boxing was happening above the guy and he is not going to move and try to get into the mix by fighting some contenders at 147 it always seemed weird to me. The man was tough but really wild and left open all the time Leonard wins pretty wide decision, Duran is closer call and I think Hearns puts him to sleep early.
Most "fans" who easily dismiss fighters from earlier eras can't even be bothered to watch their fights. They fawn over today's stars, and subscribe to the laughable, flimsy premise that they're somehow superior. Would Pryor have beaten the likes of Leonard, Duran, or Hearns? Probably not. But to automatically dismiss him because of his style is a bit ignorant. Pryor was a swarmer, but a swarmer with power. Many of those mentioned from today would've wilted under the never ending pressure. It's one thing to wade in there without the threat of knockout power... it's quite another to contend with bombs coming non-stop from every angle. Pryor had a decent chin, too. That must be considered. Arguello teed off and hit Pryor several times with shots that would've dropped most any other opponent. Pryor blinked, paused, and moved on. Yes, Arguello had gone up in weight, but he carried the power with him.
Julio Ceaser Chavez may have been able to outpoint Aaron Pryor.
I've made this point before, but think it is worth repeating here: some fighters have styles and physical gifts that "click" at a certain weight, and only that weight. Monzon and a Hagler are two great examples of this. It is difficult to pick against either in any mythical match up (p4p or otherwise), yet they remained at one weight throughout their careers. Pryor was like that at 140.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
There are many old timers who claim Leonard wanted nothing to do with Pryor and that Pryor had his way with Leonard during training/competing in the amateurs. This may or may not be true, but I'm not 100% sold that Pryor has no hope based off of one or two poor performances. Styles, lack of motivation...etc., can impact a fighter's performance, and Leonard had a couple of fights where he looked less than stellar as well (Howard Davis as an example).
Some fighters are swarmers who have a very unorthodox style and rhythm which throws off other fighters. Prime Johnny Tapia, Joe Calzaghe, and even Pac Man are examples. Joe was very similar in that he threw many punches and often seemed to be wide open due to having his hands down, but proved much harder to hit than what was anticipated. Pryor had a great chin also, and this only made him that much more brazen and difficult to beat.
Could Ray, Tommy...etc., beaten Pryor? Sure. Was he overhyped and not as great as people make him out to be? Not in my opinion. Aaron Pryor had the style, attitude, and physical gifts to beat anyone at his weight, and proved this by cleaning the weight class out. Every time you have that dominant a champ, you have people criticizing their level of competition (Hop, Joe Loius, Wlad, Kostya...etc.).
I'm not ready to write Pryor off as an early version of James Kirkland doing impressions of a crash test dummy but he threw caution to the wind constantly and that was his whole hope of getting his early push. He was buzzed and or dropped in major fights and granted he brushed it off mostly and got right back to trying to rip a guys head off. He freely gave up his head. It's not a case of 'what could he have been' like some others as he had early opportunities he turned down, had platforms off his biggest wins and instead balked at challengers and dropped his trinket. Arguello was coming up sure but in fairness Pryor wasn't exactly a big 140 but fighters weathering a storm and mobile fast timing punchers I think would have done very well putting him off pace and turning his forward sprint against him. I'd go so far to think a Chavez form Frankie Randall would have found too many open lanes right down the middle. Taylor would get sucked in and fight his fight maybe. Crawford..forget about it. Pryor v Cotto 140 would have been hellfire and brimstone.
I am not basing his chances to win off a few fights i just do not see how he is going to get away with his style with guys who are bigger and have power. Pryor was great 140 fighter but that division was kinda baron outside few fighters. All i am saying is with all the money there was to be made at 147 it still baffles me he did not move up and become a contender to fight Leonard, Duran, Benetiz or Hearns. Division up all the legends and money he could ask for think it would be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodI've made this point before, but think it is worth repeating here: some fighters have styles and physical gifts that "click" at a certain weight, and only that weight. Monzon and a Hagler are two great examples of this. It is difficult to pick against either in any mythical match up (p4p or otherwise), yet they remained at one weight throughout their careers. Pryor was like that at 140.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
There are many old timers who claim Leonard wanted nothing to do with Pryor and that Pryor had his way with Leonard during training/competing in the amateurs. This may or may not be true, but I'm not 100% sold that Pryor has no hope based off of one or two poor performances. Styles, lack of motivation...etc., can impact a fighter's performance, and Leonard had a couple of fights where he looked less than stellar as well (Howard Davis as an example).
Some fighters are swarmers who have a very unorthodox style and rhythm which throws off other fighters. Prime Johnny Tapia, Joe Calzaghe, and even Pac Man are examples. Joe was very similar in that he threw many punches and often seemed to be wide open due to having his hands down, but proved much harder to hit than what was anticipated. Pryor had a great chin also, and this only made him that much more brazen and difficult to beat.
Could Ray, Tommy...etc., beaten Pryor? Sure. Was he overhyped and not as great as people make him out to be? Not in my opinion. Aaron Pryor had the style, attitude, and physical gifts to beat anyone at his weight, and proved this by cleaning the weight class out. Every time you have that dominant a champ, you have people criticizing their level of competition (Hop, Joe Loius, Wlad, Kostya...etc.).
I think Pryor being as open as he was would of cost him against Leonard or Hearns because at 147 if they had someone in trouble it was over. Not many people are going to take clean shots off Hearns at 147 even at higher weights it was bad idea. There are still match ups he could be in that would allow for his style to take it but against those guys i am pretty sure it would not work out. Leonard was a monster at 147 and besides his offence being amazing his defence was great to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
@TitoFan - this is your final warning. I have tired of politely asking you to stop misrepresenting my posts, telling blatant lies about me. You can follow me all over the forum throwing insults at me, call me a moron, an areshole, a cunt whatever. What you can't do is continually say I said things I didn't. Please consider this carefully. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Aaron Pryor was unstoppable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39psaFgk_U
Well if Joe Cortez would just let Ricky fight on the inside.... I'm not saying Ricky would win but he definitely would have won!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster@TitoFan - this is your final warning. I have tired of politely asking you to stop misrepresenting my posts, telling blatant lies about me. You can follow me all over the forum throwing insults at me, call me a moron, an areshole, a cunt whatever. What you can't do is continually say I said things I didn't. Please consider this carefully. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
This is boxing forum. You have your opinions... I have mine. You've used harsher references to me in the past, and it's well known you don't take kindly to my presence here, nor my opinions. Ever since I made fun of your "Marquez ducked Naz" threads, you've had it in for me. You can threaten anyone you like, but you'd better have a firmer reason for it than you do with me.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster@TitoFan - this is your final warning. I have tired of politely asking you to stop misrepresenting my posts, telling blatant lies about me. You can follow me all over the forum throwing insults at me, call me a moron, an areshole, a cunt whatever. What you can't do is continually say I said things I didn't. Please consider this carefully. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
This is boxing forum. You have your opinions... I have mine. You've used harsher references to me in the past, and it's well known you don't take kindly to my presence here, nor my opinions. Ever since I made fun of your "Marquez ducked Naz" threads, you've had it in for me. You can threaten anyone you like, but you'd better have a firmer reason for it than you do with me.
Thanks.
Just in case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster@TitoFan - this is your final warning. I have tired of politely asking you to stop misrepresenting my posts, telling blatant lies about me. You can follow me all over the forum throwing insults at me, call me a moron, an areshole, a cunt whatever. What you can't do is continually say I said things I didn't. Please consider this carefully. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
This is boxing forum. You have your opinions... I have mine. You've used harsher references to me in the past, and it's well known you don't take kindly to my presence here, nor my opinions. Ever since I made fun of your "Marquez ducked Naz" threads, you've had it in for me. You can threaten anyone you like, but you'd better have a firmer reason for it than you do with me.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh hey... here's one of the things I said you said, that you really "didn't say".
Other than not using your exact words... is there something I misrepresented?
Thanks.
Fair enough, you've had a million chances, you clearly think you can take the absolute piss. How about this for "good" modding?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster@TitoFan - this is your final warning. I have tired of politely asking you to stop misrepresenting my posts, telling blatant lies about me. You can follow me all over the forum throwing insults at me, call me a moron, an areshole, a cunt whatever. What you can't do is continually say I said things I didn't. Please consider this carefully. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
This is boxing forum. You have your opinions... I have mine. You've used harsher references to me in the past, and it's well known you don't take kindly to my presence here, nor my opinions. Ever since I made fun of your "Marquez ducked Naz" threads, you've had it in for me. You can threaten anyone you like, but you'd better have a firmer reason for it than you do with me.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh hey... here's one of the things I said you said, that you really "didn't say".
Other than not using your exact words... is there something I misrepresented?
Thanks.
Learn some humility, respect and manners.
I have some amateur footage of a 17 year old Tommy Hearns fighting Pryor , its a rock em sock em fight Pryor wins on points.
Fact is he never changed his brawling style , was always wide open to the straight right.
I think I have seen that footage. Prior was incredible and had an incredible chin. Also did Fenster really just ban @TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Anyone fighting prime Pryor would have to go through hell to beat him. Not saying it couldn't be done, just not many would be able to stand up to that relentless aggression for 15 rounds.
I agree with Pryor.
100% yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Yeh I think he would have been pushing it at 147 and initially he himself was the early lightweight coming up. Hearts was just a different type of animal and while Pryor wore his heart and fire on his sleeve Hearns and Leonard were entirely a cut above with skill and athleticism. A lot of Pryors problems were born and repeated outside the ring with who he got advice and input from as we'll as his own unflinching stubbornness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140I think Pryor being as open as he was would of cost him against Leonard or Hearns because at 147 if they had someone in trouble it was over. Not many people are going to take clean shots off Hearns at 147 even at higher weights it was bad idea. There are still match ups he could be in that would allow for his style to take it but against those guys i am pretty sure it would not work out. Leonard was a monster at 147 and besides his offence being amazing his defence was great to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli