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Carillion directors to be investigated
This is capitalism at its worst.
I know people who are at Carillion and this was a £2billion private business that is in liquidation yet the fat bosses are still making hundreds of thousands of pounds.
The government has ordered a fast-track investigation into directors at the failed construction firm Carillion.
The UK's second biggest construction firm went into liquidation on Monday, after running up losses on contracts and struggling with heavy debts.
The Business Secretary has asked for an investigation by the Official Receiver to be broadened and fast-tracked.
The conduct of directors in charge at the time of company's failure and previous directors will be examined.
"It is important we quickly get the full picture of the events which caused Carillion to enter liquidation," said Business Secretary, Greg Clark, in a statement.
"Any evidence of misconduct will be taken very seriously," he said.
The role of Carillion's auditor KPMG will be examined by the Financial Reporting Council.
Chief executive Richard Howson stepped down in July of last year after a profit warning. He had been in charge since the end of 2011.
Keith Cochrane was appointed as interim chief executive.
There has been much criticism over the size of Mr Howson's pay award in 2016 which, including bonuses, totalled £1.5m. He is also due to receive a salary until October of the this year.
Under his leadership Carillion was hit by cost overruns on big projects, problems with contracts in the Middle East and a large deficit in its pension schemes.
In particular three building projects in the UK had resulted in hefty losses:
◾The £350m Midland Metropolitan Hospital in Sandwell: opening delayed to 2019 due to construction problems
◾The £335m Royal Liverpool Hospital: completion date repeatedly pushed back amid reports of cracks in the building
◾The £745m Aberdeen bypass: delayed because of slow progress in completing initial earthworks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42703549
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
You happy about paying continue paying these bosses thousands of pounds for their incompetence and neglect managing of the company by stealing from the pension fund?
Who is next interserve, serco?
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
That's racist
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Master, mate, you need to be in possession of the full facts.
I know Carillion extremely well indeed on a first hand basis.
I have set up and run Joint Ventures with them, have competed against them in bids, have bought and sold businesses to them, have taken over contracts from them, and have dealt with them when they have taken over contracts from us. I have TUPE transferred staff from them and to them. I have poached their staff and they have poached mine. I have many friends who work for them. My wife also worked directly for Carillion very recently indeed, for many years.
As usual, journalists who do not have a clue are offering simplified reporting and viewpoints which are prejudiced by their own beliefs. Equally, on this very forum, we have had people conveniently cherry picking stuff to add to their already formed world view.
It is true that Carillion's directors have failed, and should not be rewarded for that failure. The 'golden parachutes' awarded for failure are just wrong and should not have been made. If it is true, as has been reported, that the remuneration board changed the bonus rules in 2015, again that should be investigated. Note, though, that nobody on that Board is a Carillion employee. The head of it is the HR Director of Tesco. Why is nobody asking the non-executive directors these questions. They are the ones who have also actually failed because their role is governance and to provide outside perspective.
The vultures at EY are now making millions by running the liquidation. But it was KPMG who signed off the accounts every year, earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. When EY fuck up somebody else's accounts, KPMG will Be the liquidators and earn millions. Why is nobody challenging this cosy and illegal cartel?
The reasons the company went bust are complex, but essentially it boils down to them being too aggressive in how they book cash and profit. They booked profit every year on long term contracts when the actual profit was unclear. I have known this for a fact for over 5 years. This was driven by their demanding shareholders ..... 72% of whom are banks.
Nobody comes out of this well.
Carillion's directors have clearly failed. They then ended up in a Ponzi like scheme where they 'bought' shit new contracts in an attempt to mask underlying long term losses. Their middle management are guilty of being complicit in the whole shambles for many years and taking undeserved bonuses too. Accountants are guilty of overstating cash and profit. Carillion staff are also bonused, they were happy to take the bonuses. Their competitors are guilty of joining the race to the bottom in terms of bidding for work with little or no margin possibility.
The government are acting all pious and surprised. However, two thirds of Carillion's work was with the government. Government contracts are not particularly profitable, but do provide reliable cashflow. PFI and PPP contracts are now weighted firmly in favour of the government, with margins usually in the 2.5 to 3% region, which is not blatant profiteering. The government knew Carillion were in trouble and needed cash, so they aggressively negotiated new and existing contracts in their favour. My wife's public sector customer regularly applied penalties to Carillion, which resulted in the contract being permanently loss making. Her customer said 'we need the money as our budgets have been cut and you're a big enough business. Oh, and by the way, if you don't agree to do this extra work for free, I will just make sure I get it back next month in penalties anyway.' Her customer was shambolic, and wasteful in the way they ran their own business.
Terrible customers, who believe that the company was a magic money tree.
Central government say that they will not bail out a private company for the benefit of shareholders ..... unless its a bank, eh! And it is those banks that ultimately drove the company into liquidation.
The Opposition are jumping onto the bandwagon to make this a case for broader nationalisation, because public services should be delivered by a public sector with a public sector ethos. That's a joke, it was two thirds of Carillion's customers who helped make them bankrupt by being awful customers. Great ethos.
Anybody close has known for at least 5 years that the company was in trouble, including all of the above. But now everybody is acting surprised. Hypocrisy at its best.
incidentally, I have to pull you on your comment about directors stealing people's pensions. Carillion have a huge black hole in their final salary pension schemes (not in any other scheme). In 1996 their final salary pension pot stood at +127%. That is a healthy, well invested surplus. In 1997, chancellor Gordon Brown raided private company pension schemes for about £120 BILLION. They charged a tax levy, changed tax rules and - at the time of the next valuation - Carillion's final salary pension was nearly £1 billion in deficit. They had not changed their investment strategy and their returns were consistent to what they were before. Pension funds are quite well protected from their own companies, but not government. It wasn't the Carillion directors who stole the staff pensions.
My wife is really upset by what has happened, and I suspect I am much closer to it than anyone else on this forum. It is annoying when people spit out opinions when they do not know the facts, so much of the stuff I've seen on TV isn't even credible.
Rant over, and I'm not having a go at you, Master. I won't be getting into any sort of debate about this on the internet, because there is no value in doing so.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
That's racist
No, but it is stupidist
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
Master, mate, you need to be in possession of the full facts.
I know Carillion extremely well indeed on a first hand basis.
I have set up and run Joint Ventures with them, have competed against them in bids, have bought and sold businesses to them, have taken over contracts from them, and have dealt with them when they have taken over contracts from us. I have TUPE transferred staff from them and to them. I have poached their staff and they have poached mine. I have many friends who work for them. My wife also worked directly for Carillion very recently indeed, for many years.
As usual, journalists who do not have a clue are offering simplified reporting and viewpoints which are prejudiced by their own beliefs. Equally, on this very forum, we have had people conveniently cherry picking stuff to add to their already formed world view.
It is true that Carillion's directors have failed, and should not be rewarded for that failure. The 'golden parachutes' awarded for failure are just wrong and should not have been made. If it is true, as has been reported, that the remuneration board changed the bonus rules in 2015, again that should be investigated. Note, though, that nobody on that Board is a Carillion employee. The head of it is the HR Director of Tesco. Why is nobody asking the non-executive directors these questions. They are the ones who have also actually failed because their role is governance and to provide outside perspective.
The vultures at EY are now making millions by running the liquidation. But it was KPMG who signed off the accounts every year, earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. When EY fuck up somebody else's accounts, KPMG will Be the liquidators and earn millions. Why is nobody challenging this cosy and illegal cartel?
The reasons the company went bust are complex, but essentially it boils down to them being too aggressive in how they book cash and profit. They booked profit every year on long term contracts when the actual profit was unclear. I have known this for a fact for over 5 years. This was driven by their demanding shareholders ..... 72% of whom are banks.
Nobody comes out of this well.
Carillion's directors have clearly failed. They then ended up in a Ponzi like scheme where they 'bought' shit new contracts in an attempt to mask underlying long term losses. Their middle management are guilty of being complicit in the whole shambles for many years and taking undeserved bonuses too. Accountants are guilty of overstating cash and profit. Carillion staff are also bonused, they were happy to take the bonuses. Their competitors are guilty of joining the race to the bottom in terms of bidding for work with little or no margin possibility.
The government are acting all pious and surprised. However, two thirds of Carillion's work was with the government. Government contracts are not particularly profitable, but do provide reliable cashflow. PFI and PPP contracts are now weighted firmly in favour of the government, with margins usually in the 2.5 to 3% region, which is not blatant profiteering. The government knew Carillion were in trouble and needed cash, so they aggressively negotiated new and existing contracts in their favour. My wife's public sector customer regularly applied penalties to Carillion, which resulted in the contract being permanently loss making. Her customer said 'we need the money as our budgets have been cut and you're a big enough business. Oh, and by the way, if you don't agree to do this extra work for free, I will just make sure I get it back next month in penalties anyway.' Her customer was shambolic, and wasteful in the way they ran their own business.
Terrible customers, who believe that the company was a magic money tree.
Central government say that they will not bail out a private company for the benefit of shareholders ..... unless its a bank, eh! And it is those banks that ultimately drove the company into liquidation.
The Opposition are jumping onto the bandwagon to make this a case for broader nationalisation, because public services should be delivered by a public sector with a public sector ethos. That's a joke, it was two thirds of Carillion's customers who helped make them bankrupt by being awful customers. Great ethos.
Anybody close has known for at least 5 years that the company was in trouble, including all of the above. But now everybody is acting surprised. Hypocrisy at its best.
incidentally, I have to pull you on your comment about directors stealing people's pensions. Carillion have a huge black hole in their final salary pension schemes (not in any other scheme). In 1996 their final salary pension pot stood at +127%. That is a healthy, well invested surplus. In 1997, chancellor Gordon Brown raided private company pension schemes for about £120 BILLION. They charged a tax levy, changed tax rules and - at the time of the next valuation - Carillion's final salary pension was nearly £1 billion in deficit. They had not changed their investment strategy and their returns were consistent to what they were before. Pension funds are quite well protected from their own companies, but not government. It wasn't the Carillion directors who stole the staff pensions.
My wife is really upset by what has happened, and I suspect I am much closer to it than anyone else on this forum. It is annoying when people spit out opinions when they do not know the facts, so much of the stuff I've seen on TV isn't even credible.
Rant over, and I'm not having a go at you, Master. I won't be getting into any sort of debate about this on the internet, because there is no value in doing so.
Great Post X. @Master , you should take note mate. It's easy to go on a big idealistic crusade without all the facts. There are many people responsible for what has happened here and there are many HYPOCRITES as well.
I also believe that The pressure they are put under to win some of these large Government contracts and penalties are why they make losses on projects. Yet it is the Banks, Financial Institutions and Government that have allowed Carrillion to rack up such a massive debt. There's a lot more to this scandal than a few directors walking off into the sunset with a few grand!
also , these contracts are still gonna have to be completed, and the big guns will queue up to bid, and then they will be under the same pressures and probably rack up a shit load of debt and cave in as well.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
I have been reading the papers. It just looks like a mess really. Looks like the same old story of run up the debts, loot the coffers and then saddle it on the taxpayers at the end.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Well X that was better than your first post. :)
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
Master, mate, you need to be in possession of the full facts.
I know Carillion extremely well indeed on a first hand basis.
I have set up and run Joint Ventures with them, have competed against them in bids, have bought and sold businesses to them, have taken over contracts from them, and have dealt with them when they have taken over contracts from us. I have TUPE transferred staff from them and to them. I have poached their staff and they have poached mine. I have many friends who work for them. My wife also worked directly for Carillion very recently indeed, for many years.
As usual, journalists who do not have a clue are offering simplified reporting and viewpoints which are prejudiced by their own beliefs. Equally, on this very forum, we have had people conveniently cherry picking stuff to add to their already formed world view.
It is true that Carillion's directors have failed, and should not be rewarded for that failure. The 'golden parachutes' awarded for failure are just wrong and should not have been made. If it is true, as has been reported, that the remuneration board changed the bonus rules in 2015, again that should be investigated. Note, though, that nobody on that Board is a Carillion employee. The head of it is the HR Director of Tesco. Why is nobody asking the non-executive directors these questions. They are the ones who have also actually failed because their role is governance and to provide outside perspective.
The vultures at EY are now making millions by running the liquidation. But it was KPMG who signed off the accounts every year, earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. When EY fuck up somebody else's accounts, KPMG will Be the liquidators and earn millions. Why is nobody challenging this cosy and illegal cartel?
The reasons the company went bust are complex, but essentially it boils down to them being too aggressive in how they book cash and profit. They booked profit every year on long term contracts when the actual profit was unclear. I have known this for a fact for over 5 years. This was driven by their demanding shareholders ..... 72% of whom are banks.
Nobody comes out of this well.
Carillion's directors have clearly failed. They then ended up in a Ponzi like scheme where they 'bought' shit new contracts in an attempt to mask underlying long term losses. Their middle management are guilty of being complicit in the whole shambles for many years and taking undeserved bonuses too. Accountants are guilty of overstating cash and profit. Carillion staff are also bonused, they were happy to take the bonuses. Their competitors are guilty of joining the race to the bottom in terms of bidding for work with little or no margin possibility.
The government are acting all pious and surprised. However, two thirds of Carillion's work was with the government. Government contracts are not particularly profitable, but do provide reliable cashflow. PFI and PPP contracts are now weighted firmly in favour of the government, with margins usually in the 2.5 to 3% region, which is not blatant profiteering. The government knew Carillion were in trouble and needed cash, so they aggressively negotiated new and existing contracts in their favour. My wife's public sector customer regularly applied penalties to Carillion, which resulted in the contract being permanently loss making. Her customer said 'we need the money as our budgets have been cut and you're a big enough business. Oh, and by the way, if you don't agree to do this extra work for free, I will just make sure I get it back next month in penalties anyway.' Her customer was shambolic, and wasteful in the way they ran their own business.
Terrible customers, who believe that the company was a magic money tree.
Central government say that they will not bail out a private company for the benefit of shareholders ..... unless its a bank, eh! And it is those banks that ultimately drove the company into liquidation.
The Opposition are jumping onto the bandwagon to make this a case for broader nationalisation, because public services should be delivered by a public sector with a public sector ethos. That's a joke, it was two thirds of Carillion's customers who helped make them bankrupt by being awful customers. Great ethos.
Anybody close has known for at least 5 years that the company was in trouble, including all of the above. But now everybody is acting surprised. Hypocrisy at its best.
incidentally, I have to pull you on your comment about directors stealing people's pensions. Carillion have a huge black hole in their final salary pension schemes (not in any other scheme). In 1996 their final salary pension pot stood at +127%. That is a healthy, well invested surplus. In 1997, chancellor Gordon Brown raided private company pension schemes for about £120 BILLION. They charged a tax levy, changed tax rules and - at the time of the next valuation - Carillion's final salary pension was nearly £1 billion in deficit. They had not changed their investment strategy and their returns were consistent to what they were before. Pension funds are quite well protected from their own companies, but not government. It wasn't the Carillion directors who stole the staff pensions.
My wife is really upset by what has happened, and I suspect I am much closer to it than anyone else on this forum. It is annoying when people spit out opinions when they do not know the facts, so much of the stuff I've seen on TV isn't even credible.
Rant over, and I'm not having a go at you, Master. I won't be getting into any sort of debate about this on the internet, because there is no value in doing so.
Great Post X. @
Master , you should take note mate. It's easy to go on a big idealistic crusade without all the facts. There are many people responsible for what has happened here and there are many HYPOCRITES as well.
I also believe that The pressure they are put under to win some of these large Government contracts and penalties are why they make losses on projects. Yet it is the Banks, Financial Institutions and Government that have allowed Carrillion to rack up such a massive debt. There's a lot more to this scandal than a few directors walking off into the sunset with a few grand!
also , these contracts are still gonna have to be completed, and the big guns will queue up to bid, and then they will be under the same pressures and probably rack up a shit load of debt and cave in as well.
You should stop telling Master what to do. Maybe it's just me but you come across as incredibly patronising most the time yourself Primo.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
Master, mate, you need to be in possession of the full facts.
I know Carillion extremely well indeed on a first hand basis.
I have set up and run Joint Ventures with them, have competed against them in bids, have bought and sold businesses to them, have taken over contracts from them, and have dealt with them when they have taken over contracts from us. I have TUPE transferred staff from them and to them. I have poached their staff and they have poached mine. I have many friends who work for them. My wife also worked directly for Carillion very recently indeed, for many years.
As usual, journalists who do not have a clue are offering simplified reporting and viewpoints which are prejudiced by their own beliefs. Equally, on this very forum, we have had people conveniently cherry picking stuff to add to their already formed world view.
It is true that Carillion's directors have failed, and should not be rewarded for that failure. The 'golden parachutes' awarded for failure are just wrong and should not have been made. If it is true, as has been reported, that the remuneration board changed the bonus rules in 2015, again that should be investigated. Note, though, that nobody on that Board is a Carillion employee. The head of it is the HR Director of Tesco. Why is nobody asking the non-executive directors these questions. They are the ones who have also actually failed because their role is governance and to provide outside perspective.
The vultures at EY are now making millions by running the liquidation. But it was KPMG who signed off the accounts every year, earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. When EY fuck up somebody else's accounts, KPMG will Be the liquidators and earn millions. Why is nobody challenging this cosy and illegal cartel?
The reasons the company went bust are complex, but essentially it boils down to them being too aggressive in how they book cash and profit. They booked profit every year on long term contracts when the actual profit was unclear. I have known this for a fact for over 5 years. This was driven by their demanding shareholders ..... 72% of whom are banks.
Nobody comes out of this well.
Carillion's directors have clearly failed. They then ended up in a Ponzi like scheme where they 'bought' shit new contracts in an attempt to mask underlying long term losses. Their middle management are guilty of being complicit in the whole shambles for many years and taking undeserved bonuses too. Accountants are guilty of overstating cash and profit. Carillion staff are also bonused, they were happy to take the bonuses. Their competitors are guilty of joining the race to the bottom in terms of bidding for work with little or no margin possibility.
The government are acting all pious and surprised. However, two thirds of Carillion's work was with the government. Government contracts are not particularly profitable, but do provide reliable cashflow. PFI and PPP contracts are now weighted firmly in favour of the government, with margins usually in the 2.5 to 3% region, which is not blatant profiteering. The government knew Carillion were in trouble and needed cash, so they aggressively negotiated new and existing contracts in their favour. My wife's public sector customer regularly applied penalties to Carillion, which resulted in the contract being permanently loss making. Her customer said 'we need the money as our budgets have been cut and you're a big enough business. Oh, and by the way, if you don't agree to do this extra work for free, I will just make sure I get it back next month in penalties anyway.' Her customer was shambolic, and wasteful in the way they ran their own business.
Terrible customers, who believe that the company was a magic money tree.
Central government say that they will not bail out a private company for the benefit of shareholders ..... unless its a bank, eh! And it is those banks that ultimately drove the company into liquidation.
The Opposition are jumping onto the bandwagon to make this a case for broader nationalisation, because public services should be delivered by a public sector with a public sector ethos. That's a joke, it was two thirds of Carillion's customers who helped make them bankrupt by being awful customers. Great ethos.
Anybody close has known for at least 5 years that the company was in trouble, including all of the above. But now everybody is acting surprised. Hypocrisy at its best.
incidentally, I have to pull you on your comment about directors stealing people's pensions. Carillion have a huge black hole in their final salary pension schemes (not in any other scheme). In 1996 their final salary pension pot stood at +127%. That is a healthy, well invested surplus. In 1997, chancellor Gordon Brown raided private company pension schemes for about £120 BILLION. They charged a tax levy, changed tax rules and - at the time of the next valuation - Carillion's final salary pension was nearly £1 billion in deficit. They had not changed their investment strategy and their returns were consistent to what they were before. Pension funds are quite well protected from their own companies, but not government. It wasn't the Carillion directors who stole the staff pensions.
My wife is really upset by what has happened, and I suspect I am much closer to it than anyone else on this forum. It is annoying when people spit out opinions when they do not know the facts, so much of the stuff I've seen on TV isn't even credible.
Rant over, and I'm not having a go at you, Master. I won't be getting into any sort of debate about this on the internet, because there is no value in doing so.
Great Post X. @
Master , you should take note mate. It's easy to go on a big idealistic crusade without all the facts. There are many people responsible for what has happened here and there are many HYPOCRITES as well.
I also believe that The pressure they are put under to win some of these large Government contracts and penalties are why they make losses on projects. Yet it is the Banks, Financial Institutions and Government that have allowed Carrillion to rack up such a massive debt. There's a lot more to this scandal than a few directors walking off into the sunset with a few grand!
also , these contracts are still gonna have to be completed, and the big guns will queue up to bid, and then they will be under the same pressures and probably rack up a shit load of debt and cave in as well.
You should stop telling Master what to do. Maybe it's just me but you come across as incredibly patronising most the time yourself Primo.
@Beanz , and YOU should stop telling me what to do! Talk about pot calling the kettle black ffs!
He made a load anti Capitalism crusade comments without knowing what the fuck he was talking about apart from copying and pasting journalism from one side of the issue.
What the fuck happened to balance?
I have no clue what the fuck you do, nor do I particularly give a shit, but I am heavily involved in this industry and so are some people very close to me who have been affected.
So instead of the predictable “blame the fat cat bosses” cries, realise that it is far deeper than that.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
I work in procurement and in the private sector and it is my job to ensure that there is due diligence carried out when we contract with a provider. If you only award to the lowest bid which is unrealistic then it is a false economy.
What X describes in his post is very bad and abuse of contract management.
The anti-capitalist rant was me being sick of public assets being sold to the private sector and PFI contracts have been a failure.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I work in procurement and in the private sector and it is my job to ensure that there is due diligence carried out when we contract with a provider. If you only award to the lowest bid which is unrealistic then it is a false economy.
What X describes in his post is very bad and abuse of contract management.
The anti-capitalist rant was me being sick of public assets being sold to the private sector and PFI contracts have been a failure.
Obviously you have a grasp of Contract Administration and I respect that, and I agree about awarding to the lowest bid being a false economy. I also agree about PFI Contracts in the whole and the lack of clarity.
But my point was that it's easy to highlight the guy with a golden handshake, but in truth he is just a very small cog in a very large wheel of corruption and mismanagement of funds and before firing the gun of blame, this is what should be focussed on.
Anyway mate, I never meant you any disrespect. :)
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
Master, mate, you need to be in possession of the full facts.
I know Carillion extremely well indeed on a first hand basis.
I have set up and run Joint Ventures with them, have competed against them in bids, have bought and sold businesses to them, have taken over contracts from them, and have dealt with them when they have taken over contracts from us. I have TUPE transferred staff from them and to them. I have poached their staff and they have poached mine. I have many friends who work for them. My wife also worked directly for Carillion very recently indeed, for many years.
As usual, journalists who do not have a clue are offering simplified reporting and viewpoints which are prejudiced by their own beliefs. Equally, on this very forum, we have had people conveniently cherry picking stuff to add to their already formed world view.
It is true that Carillion's directors have failed, and should not be rewarded for that failure. The 'golden parachutes' awarded for failure are just wrong and should not have been made. If it is true, as has been reported, that the remuneration board changed the bonus rules in 2015, again that should be investigated. Note, though, that nobody on that Board is a Carillion employee. The head of it is the HR Director of Tesco. Why is nobody asking the non-executive directors these questions. They are the ones who have also actually failed because their role is governance and to provide outside perspective.
The vultures at EY are now making millions by running the liquidation. But it was KPMG who signed off the accounts every year, earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. When EY fuck up somebody else's accounts, KPMG will Be the liquidators and earn millions. Why is nobody challenging this cosy and illegal cartel?
The reasons the company went bust are complex, but essentially it boils down to them being too aggressive in how they book cash and profit. They booked profit every year on long term contracts when the actual profit was unclear. I have known this for a fact for over 5 years. This was driven by their demanding shareholders ..... 72% of whom are banks.
Nobody comes out of this well.
Carillion's directors have clearly failed. They then ended up in a Ponzi like scheme where they 'bought' shit new contracts in an attempt to mask underlying long term losses. Their middle management are guilty of being complicit in the whole shambles for many years and taking undeserved bonuses too. Accountants are guilty of overstating cash and profit. Carillion staff are also bonused, they were happy to take the bonuses. Their competitors are guilty of joining the race to the bottom in terms of bidding for work with little or no margin possibility.
The government are acting all pious and surprised. However, two thirds of Carillion's work was with the government. Government contracts are not particularly profitable, but do provide reliable cashflow. PFI and PPP contracts are now weighted firmly in favour of the government, with margins usually in the 2.5 to 3% region, which is not blatant profiteering. The government knew Carillion were in trouble and needed cash, so they aggressively negotiated new and existing contracts in their favour. My wife's public sector customer regularly applied penalties to Carillion, which resulted in the contract being permanently loss making. Her customer said 'we need the money as our budgets have been cut and you're a big enough business. Oh, and by the way, if you don't agree to do this extra work for free, I will just make sure I get it back next month in penalties anyway.' Her customer was shambolic, and wasteful in the way they ran their own business.
Terrible customers, who believe that the company was a magic money tree.
Central government say that they will not bail out a private company for the benefit of shareholders ..... unless its a bank, eh! And it is those banks that ultimately drove the company into liquidation.
The Opposition are jumping onto the bandwagon to make this a case for broader nationalisation, because public services should be delivered by a public sector with a public sector ethos. That's a joke, it was two thirds of Carillion's customers who helped make them bankrupt by being awful customers. Great ethos.
Anybody close has known for at least 5 years that the company was in trouble, including all of the above. But now everybody is acting surprised. Hypocrisy at its best.
incidentally, I have to pull you on your comment about directors stealing people's pensions. Carillion have a huge black hole in their final salary pension schemes (not in any other scheme). In 1996 their final salary pension pot stood at +127%. That is a healthy, well invested surplus. In 1997, chancellor Gordon Brown raided private company pension schemes for about £120 BILLION. They charged a tax levy, changed tax rules and - at the time of the next valuation - Carillion's final salary pension was nearly £1 billion in deficit. They had not changed their investment strategy and their returns were consistent to what they were before. Pension funds are quite well protected from their own companies, but not government. It wasn't the Carillion directors who stole the staff pensions.
My wife is really upset by what has happened, and I suspect I am much closer to it than anyone else on this forum. It is annoying when people spit out opinions when they do not know the facts, so much of the stuff I've seen on TV isn't even credible.
Rant over, and I'm not having a go at you, Master. I won't be getting into any sort of debate about this on the internet, because there is no value in doing so.
Great Post X. @
Master , you should take note mate. It's easy to go on a big idealistic crusade without all the facts. There are many people responsible for what has happened here and there are many HYPOCRITES as well.
I also believe that The pressure they are put under to win some of these large Government contracts and penalties are why they make losses on projects. Yet it is the Banks, Financial Institutions and Government that have allowed Carrillion to rack up such a massive debt. There's a lot more to this scandal than a few directors walking off into the sunset with a few grand!
also , these contracts are still gonna have to be completed, and the big guns will queue up to bid, and then they will be under the same pressures and probably rack up a shit load of debt and cave in as well.
You should stop telling Master what to do. Maybe it's just me but you come across as incredibly patronising most the time yourself Primo.
@
Beanz , and YOU should stop telling me what to do! Talk about pot calling the kettle black ffs!
He made a load anti Capitalism crusade comments without knowing what the fuck he was talking about apart from copying and pasting journalism from one side of the issue.
What the fuck happened to balance?
I have no clue what the fuck you do, nor do I particularly give a shit, but I am heavily involved in this industry and so are some people very close to me who have been affected.
So instead of the predictable “blame the fat cat bosses” cries, realise that it is far deeper than that.
Want to start off by saying I am really glad that you still miss Ross ( how long has that been now? ;D) Turns out Master may have had an idea what he was talking about, even if was a lazy c*nt as usual and copy and pasted a load of stuff.
I get what you are saying about balance but that cut's both ways. I am sorry if Carillion's collapse has affected you or people close to you, it seems that it has affected many small business across the country. I know as a self employed person running a small business how much impact big corporations either dragging their feet or simply refusing to pay invoices can be from personal experience.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Bonus payments to directors and former executives at collapsed construction giant Carillion have been stopped.
The move came amid political anger about bumper payments to executives who had been in charge as the firm headed for the rocks. The Insolvency Service said payments, including those included in severance packages for former executives, had been halted after the firm went into liquidation on Monday...
At Prime Minister’s Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn lashed out at the “wildly excessive” bonuses paid to directors.
Carillion’s former chief executive Richard Howson pocketed £1.5m in salary, bonuses and pension payments during 2016 and, as part of his departure deal, Carillion agreed to keep paying him a £660,000 salary and £28,000 in benefits until October.
Former finance chief Zafar Khan, who left Carillion in September, was due to receive £425,000 in base salary for 12 months.
Interim chief executive Keith Cochrane was due to be paid his £750,000 salary until July, despite leaving the company in February...The Prime Minister said the Official Receiver’s investigation into the firm would “look into the conduct not just of current directors but also of previous directors and their actions”.
It was possible to take action to claw back bonuses that have already been paid, she indicated. “The Official Receiver does have the power to ensure that, in reviewing payments to executives, where those payments are unlawful or unjustified he can take action to recover those payments,” the Prime Minister said.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...-business-live
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
X
Master, mate, you need to be in possession of the full facts.
I know Carillion extremely well indeed on a first hand basis.
I have set up and run Joint Ventures with them, have competed against them in bids, have bought and sold businesses to them, have taken over contracts from them, and have dealt with them when they have taken over contracts from us. I have TUPE transferred staff from them and to them. I have poached their staff and they have poached mine. I have many friends who work for them. My wife also worked directly for Carillion very recently indeed, for many years.
As usual, journalists who do not have a clue are offering simplified reporting and viewpoints which are prejudiced by their own beliefs. Equally, on this very forum, we have had people conveniently cherry picking stuff to add to their already formed world view.
It is true that Carillion's directors have failed, and should not be rewarded for that failure. The 'golden parachutes' awarded for failure are just wrong and should not have been made. If it is true, as has been reported, that the remuneration board changed the bonus rules in 2015, again that should be investigated. Note, though, that nobody on that Board is a Carillion employee. The head of it is the HR Director of Tesco. Why is nobody asking the non-executive directors these questions. They are the ones who have also actually failed because their role is governance and to provide outside perspective.
The vultures at EY are now making millions by running the liquidation. But it was KPMG who signed off the accounts every year, earning hundreds of thousands of pounds. When EY fuck up somebody else's accounts, KPMG will Be the liquidators and earn millions. Why is nobody challenging this cosy and illegal cartel?
The reasons the company went bust are complex, but essentially it boils down to them being too aggressive in how they book cash and profit. They booked profit every year on long term contracts when the actual profit was unclear. I have known this for a fact for over 5 years. This was driven by their demanding shareholders ..... 72% of whom are banks.
Nobody comes out of this well.
Carillion's directors have clearly failed. They then ended up in a Ponzi like scheme where they 'bought' shit new contracts in an attempt to mask underlying long term losses. Their middle management are guilty of being complicit in the whole shambles for many years and taking undeserved bonuses too. Accountants are guilty of overstating cash and profit. Carillion staff are also bonused, they were happy to take the bonuses. Their competitors are guilty of joining the race to the bottom in terms of bidding for work with little or no margin possibility.
The government are acting all pious and surprised. However, two thirds of Carillion's work was with the government. Government contracts are not particularly profitable, but do provide reliable cashflow. PFI and PPP contracts are now weighted firmly in favour of the government, with margins usually in the 2.5 to 3% region, which is not blatant profiteering. The government knew Carillion were in trouble and needed cash, so they aggressively negotiated new and existing contracts in their favour. My wife's public sector customer regularly applied penalties to Carillion, which resulted in the contract being permanently loss making. Her customer said 'we need the money as our budgets have been cut and you're a big enough business. Oh, and by the way, if you don't agree to do this extra work for free, I will just make sure I get it back next month in penalties anyway.' Her customer was shambolic, and wasteful in the way they ran their own business.
Terrible customers, who believe that the company was a magic money tree.
Central government say that they will not bail out a private company for the benefit of shareholders ..... unless its a bank, eh! And it is those banks that ultimately drove the company into liquidation.
The Opposition are jumping onto the bandwagon to make this a case for broader nationalisation, because public services should be delivered by a public sector with a public sector ethos. That's a joke, it was two thirds of Carillion's customers who helped make them bankrupt by being awful customers. Great ethos.
Anybody close has known for at least 5 years that the company was in trouble, including all of the above. But now everybody is acting surprised. Hypocrisy at its best.
incidentally, I have to pull you on your comment about directors stealing people's pensions. Carillion have a huge black hole in their final salary pension schemes (not in any other scheme). In 1996 their final salary pension pot stood at +127%. That is a healthy, well invested surplus. In 1997, chancellor Gordon Brown raided private company pension schemes for about £120 BILLION. They charged a tax levy, changed tax rules and - at the time of the next valuation - Carillion's final salary pension was nearly £1 billion in deficit. They had not changed their investment strategy and their returns were consistent to what they were before. Pension funds are quite well protected from their own companies, but not government. It wasn't the Carillion directors who stole the staff pensions.
My wife is really upset by what has happened, and I suspect I am much closer to it than anyone else on this forum. It is annoying when people spit out opinions when they do not know the facts, so much of the stuff I've seen on TV isn't even credible.
Rant over, and I'm not having a go at you, Master. I won't be getting into any sort of debate about this on the internet, because there is no value in doing so.
Great Post X. @
Master , you should take note mate. It's easy to go on a big idealistic crusade without all the facts. There are many people responsible for what has happened here and there are many HYPOCRITES as well.
I also believe that The pressure they are put under to win some of these large Government contracts and penalties are why they make losses on projects. Yet it is the Banks, Financial Institutions and Government that have allowed Carrillion to rack up such a massive debt. There's a lot more to this scandal than a few directors walking off into the sunset with a few grand!
also , these contracts are still gonna have to be completed, and the big guns will queue up to bid, and then they will be under the same pressures and probably rack up a shit load of debt and cave in as well.
You should stop telling Master what to do. Maybe it's just me but you come across as incredibly patronising most the time yourself Primo.
@
Beanz , and YOU should stop telling me what to do! Talk about pot calling the kettle black ffs!
He made a load anti Capitalism crusade comments without knowing what the fuck he was talking about apart from copying and pasting journalism from one side of the issue.
What the fuck happened to balance?
I have no clue what the fuck you do, nor do I particularly give a shit, but I am heavily involved in this industry and so are some people very close to me who have been affected.
So instead of the predictable “blame the fat cat bosses” cries, realise that it is far deeper than that.
Want to start off by saying I am really glad that you still miss Ross ( how long has that been now? ;D) Turns out Master may have had an idea what he was talking about, even if was a lazy c*nt as usual and copy and pasted a load of stuff.
I get what you are saying about balance but that cut's both ways. I am sorry if Carillion's collapse has affected you or people close to you, it seems that it has affected many small business across the country. I know as a self employed person running a small business how much impact big corporations either dragging their feet or simply refusing to pay invoices can be from personal experience.
The Ross thing was a bet with Master , which I was happy to honour, and come to think of it I have no clue what timescale was put on it, although I do miss the prick! ;D
To be fair, I haven’t been hit by this yet and don’t want to sound all self pitying because I’m not directly affected. My point was that anybody is going to be affected one way or another , and in my opinion, it’s probably going to happen again.
I think the whole Construction industry needs to be looked at because at the moment we are merely papering over the cracks , yet some people think they’re kings of the World one minute and crying and bankrupt the next and blaming the World and sundry.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Parenting over the cracks ;D
You can change your signature yourself anytime you want, just thought you did miss Ross. You had some good battles with him.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
You happy about paying continue paying these bosses thousands of pounds for their incompetence and neglect managing of the company by stealing from the pension fund?
Who is next interserve, serco?
They are no different to the banks rewarding useless people with bonus payments nothing ever changes public money wasted on undeserving individuals but it's the Tory way rewarding there rich asslickers.:mad:
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dia bando
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
You happy about paying continue paying these bosses thousands of pounds for their incompetence and neglect managing of the company by stealing from the pension fund?
Who is next interserve, serco?
They are no different to the banks rewarding useless people with bonus payments nothing ever changes public money wasted on undeserving individuals but it's the Tory way rewarding there rich asslickers.:mad:
There are clear conflicts of interest when MP's family members are members of the boards of these private companies.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
😈😈😈👾👾👾🎅🎅🎅🎅🏇🏇 🏇⛹💣💥💣💥💣💦💣💥💣💥 💥👜👕🎐🎐⏯🈯🉐🈹🈚🈹🉐 🈶🉐🈲🈚🈲🈲🈚🈹🈚🈹🉐🈯 🈯🉐🈯🉐🈯🈶🈯🉐🈹🈚🈲
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dia bando
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
You happy about paying continue paying these bosses thousands of pounds for their incompetence and neglect managing of the company by stealing from the pension fund?
Who is next interserve, serco?
They are no different to the banks rewarding useless people with bonus payments nothing ever changes public money wasted on undeserving individuals but it's the Tory way rewarding there rich asslickers.:mad:
There are clear conflicts of interest when MP's family members are members of the boards of these private companies.
Yes a conflict of interest how many MPs of all parties use the system strange your MP is there to represent the voters not themselves.
During Thatcher's time Norman Tebbit and his Wife were on the board of a company which ran
a lot Local authority grounds maintenance contracts,!! a member of the cabinet well make of it what you will.!!!!!!!:mad:
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Carillion: Ex-finance chief 'dumped last of his shares'
The former finance director of collapsed construction firm Carillion "dumped" the last of his shares at the earliest possible moment, MPs say.
Richard Adam sold shares worth hundreds of thousands of pounds in early 2017 as soon as he qualified for them after leaving Carillion in December 2016.
The information was released by a joint committee of MPs looking into Carillion's collapse.
Mr Adam said he had sold them "when I was invited to do so by the company".
The information was published by the Work and Pensions and Business Select Committees, which are conducting a joint inquiry into Carillion's collapse.
More than 1,000 Carillion workers have lost their jobs since the firm went into liquidation last month.
Mr Adam retired at the end of December 2016. On 1 March 2017, he sold all the shares he had at the time for £534,000, including performance awards for 2013-15 of £277,000, which fell due once he had retired.
He then sold his long-term incentive plan awards for 2014 on 8 May 2017, the day they matured, for £242,000.
Mr Adam commented: "I sold the shares that I was eligible to sell when I was invited to do so by the company as I retired. More than half of the shares in the company that I had an interest in at retirement have been lost as a result of the company entering liquidation."
The committees also published a response from Mr Adam's successor, Zafar Khan, whose contract with Carillion was terminated last September after eight months in the job.
A few days before his contract was ended, Mr Khan had issued a financial update showing things had worsened since July 2017, when Carillion had written off £845m in losses on underperforming contracts, the committee said.
They added: "Mr Khan argues that it is surprising that the board were 'spooked' by his update, as it should have been apparent to the board by then that the company was struggling to improve both its net debt and profit positions."
Frank Field, chairman of the Work and Pensions Select Committee, accused Mr Adam of "dumping the last of his shares at the first possible moment, because he is - with his own money at least - 'risk-averse'. What conclusions are we to draw from that?"
He added: "The other directors appear keen to set up the hapless Zafar Khan as the fall guy for the collapse. It is not lost on us, however, that he inherited Carillion's mountain of debt."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43190109
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Big deal, get the violins you daffodils
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Big deal, get the violins you daffodils
Thousands of people have lost their jobs so it kind of is a big deal you fucking prick. Not just that but many small businesses will go under because again the big corporation has not, and now no longer can pay their invoices. I know what it is like chasing large corporations trying to get them to pay what they owe you. Fucking 17 emails before I even got one to acknowledge they owed me anything. Never a problem with individual clients and small business because they understand how important that invoice is to you and they act responsibly. Politicians and irresponsible corporate directors lining their pockets at the working mans expense and you patting them on the back and sneering at everyone else. Prick
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Big deal, get the violins you daffodils
Thousands of people have lost their jobs so it kind of is a big deal you fucking prick. Not just that but many small businesses will go under because again the big corporation has not, and now no longer can pay their invoices. I know what it is like chasing large corporations trying to get them to pay what they owe you. Fucking 17 emails before I even got one to acknowledge they owed me anything. Never a problem with individual clients and small business because they understand how important that invoice is to you and they act responsibly. Politicians and irresponsible corporate directors lining their pockets at the working mans expense and you patting them on the back and sneering at everyone else. Prick
I think in England most of u guys get pensions (I could be wrong) in the us most businesses now have 401k that are tied to the market and sometimes your contribution is matched to a percentage by your company, usually 6 to eight percent of your salary. This is not a guaranteed income as it swings with the market. Mine has been doing well lately but a big dump in the market can change that for everyone. I don't know how corporations were able to get away with the pension scheme. It saves them loads of money but screws the workers. That is why a lot of us need to find ways to make money on the side. I'd prefer to be able to travel and relax without having to worry about money and not have to work till I'm 90.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
beanz what fucking experience do you have pray tell do tell chasing corporate clients down to have them pay their invoices/ and was this before, during or after your Irish fighting techniques in the woods out of a fucking van riding rough shod over the moors
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
beanz what fucking experience do you have pray tell do tell chasing corporate clients down to have them pay their invoices/ and was this before, during or after your Irish fighting techniques in the woods out of a fucking van riding rough shod over the moors
That is the problem with you just assuming stuff and just ignoring everything that doesn't fit with your narrow minded view of the world. All that travel and yet you aspire to be a bigoted thug. Sad.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Brock you are a dick, which is worse than a cunt.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Brock you are a dick, which is worse than a cunt.
Master I refuse to give up my title. We are now in week 3 of the boxing Challenge and I will challenge you on the word dick. Actually the word is cunt. @Alpha I challenge Master for this weeks boxing pics. My pic in the challenge is as follows:
Cunt vs Dick *****JOKER**** CUNT KO3
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Brock you are a dick, which is worse than a cunt.
Master I refuse to give up my title. We are now in week 3 of the boxing Challenge and I will challenge you on the word dick. Actually the word is cunt. @
Alpha I challenge Master for this weeks boxing pics. My pic in the challenge is as follows:
Cunt vs Dick *****JOKER**** CUNT KO3
You win you prick.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Brock you are a dick, which is worse than a cunt.
Master I refuse to give up my title. We are now in week 3 of the boxing Challenge and I will challenge you on the word dick. Actually the word is cunt. @
Alpha I challenge Master for this weeks boxing pics. My pic in the challenge is as follows:
Cunt vs Dick *****JOKER**** CUNT KO3
You win you prick.
😀😁😂 Hahaha ..... 😇
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Brock you are a dick, which is worse than a cunt.
Master I refuse to give up my title. We are now in week 3 of the boxing Challenge and I will challenge you on the word dick. Actually the word is cunt. @
Alpha I challenge Master for this weeks boxing pics. My pic in the challenge is as follows:
Cunt vs Dick *****JOKER**** CUNT KO3
Are you going to make any picks for this week? You turned it around last week, shot to the top of the P4P, you did lose your titles tho the same day :-X
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
HTF did he get to be top of p4p?
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
HTF did he get to be top of p4p?
His Dalakian pick was a challenge, beat me, won my titles and points, lost his titles to Fenster in the Wangek/ Estrada fight.
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
HTF did he get to be top of p4p?
Even an orangeclock can accidentally end up as Flavor Flav once a year
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
HTF did he get to be top of p4p?
Even an orangeclock can accidentally end up as Flavor Flav once a year
Damn you have a good memory, orangeclock was a barnburner and may make a return, I changed my IP address and Master isnt checking lately
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Re: Carillion directors to be investigated
