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Who wins this peak for peak?
You could argue that AJ has not hit his peak yet but he is not that far from it. Lennox fought in an era with stronger competition and earned his title shot.
Both have susceptible chins but Lennox only lost when he took his opponent lightly. Against AJ Lennox would be on his A game and when in that form he would win.
What do you think?
Lennox.
Lewis has had his entire career, so we are in a position to judge him as a fighter, whereas Joshua has only had a handful of fights so far against extremely mediocre opposition (Wlad notwithstanding, as he was well past his sell by date)
I don't think Joshua has peaked yet, but my instinct is that Lennox would be too athletic, too skilled and too seasoned for AJ ......
Lets see what transpires in the AJ story yet. He hasn't been hurt by boxing yet as a pro. Much too soon after so few short fights against the likes of Charles Williams!
AJ has been visibly been hurt by Whyte and Wlad.
yep, and Lennox "was visibly hurt" by Rahman and McCall! so fucking what? and I don't buy this "wasn't focused" bollocks. Having said all that, if you had to say at this moment in time, you have to give it to Lewis. AJ isn't the most Skilled, Cultured or experienced Fighter YET. he wouldn't get past Lewis's Jab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Every fighter gets hurt at some point in their career...it's how they deal with it.
Point being that he would not take AJ lightly and treat him as if he was fighting dangerous punchers like Grant, Golota, Ruddock, Tua and Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnerayep, and Lennox "was visibly hurt" by Rahman and McCall! so fucking what? and I don't buy this "wasn't focused" bollocks. Having said all that, if you had to say at this moment in time, you have to give it to Lewis. AJ isn't the most Skilled, Cultured or experienced Fighter YET. he wouldn't get past Lewis's Jab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Lennox in 5-6. Lewis took out grant and golota early, because lewis knew when you had someone who wasn't ready. There are the guys you give a little slack to and drag into deep water and fatigue and attrition takes their heart.(tyson, tua, briggs because they used to finishing early...) and there are the guys you spook and take the heart from first and everything collapses after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterPoint being that he would not take AJ lightly and treat him as if he was fighting dangerous punchers like Grant, Golota, Ruddock, Tua and Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnerayep, and Lennox "was visibly hurt" by Rahman and McCall! so fucking what? and I don't buy this "wasn't focused" bollocks. Having said all that, if you had to say at this moment in time, you have to give it to Lewis. AJ isn't the most Skilled, Cultured or experienced Fighter YET. he wouldn't get past Lewis's Jab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I don't think Joshua has peaked yet, but right now he falls in between categories. Joshua has a fighters mentality in that he gets up and tries harder if hes been put on his @$$. He's trying to refine his game and fix mistakes, but he's not approaching the in ring contest from a mental stand point. Hes a combo machine, looking for countering opportunities and projecting invincibility. He's not setting traps, or walking opponents into punches or using his weight to lean on opponents and wear them down physically. Lewis knew when a guy was ripe for the quick start bum rush. I think Lennox is off to uncharacteristically fast start in this one like he did with golota, grant and botha... and establishes a jab and counters the counter to confuse Joshua and walk him into punches. Joshua tries harder to force it and burns himself out wailing away on Lewis in the guard and Lewis stitches this up shortly after. Lewis wouldn't fear Joshua's power (same for wilder) because the punches are easy to see coming... the wind ups are bigger and the delivery is deliberate and unmasked.
Just to gets this clear.... when does everyone think/agree that Lewis was in his prime?
I'd say around the Holyfield fights back in 1999 when Lewis was about 34 years old and in his 35th pro fight
Joshua is still only 28 and only had 20 pro fights against Shit opposition so far (apart from Wlad)
Basically unless some real live fighters suddenly burst onto the Heavyweight scene in the next 2 years comparing AJ and Lennox is impossible because they will never ever fight each other so what is everyone gauging it on?
If's, Buts and Maybe's.
When you think about it, as the Division stands now, After AJ fights Wilder and Fury then What?
Who's next who's around now who looks remotely like they could pose him a threat in the next few years?
Dubois (possibly) but there's fuck all else coming through and making any sort of noise that i can see
Lennox was at his best against Holyfield onwards.
AJ will have worthy opponents Wilder is up there with the likes of Ruddock/Golota/Grant. The TV companies will create a challenger for AJ.
AJ needs to get past Povetkin before Wilder, Fury, Ortiz come into it. Fat Baby Miller is a highlight reel KO away from becoming the next big American favourite. Uysk is moving to heavyweight, probably some other outstanding cruisers too. That takes care of the next few years without the "gimmes."
Lots of new faces/threats/challenges will come and go in that time, always the same, nothing changes.
As for Lennox.... AJ is lying on his back with a big goofy grin about 2 minutes after the opening bell, about 50 seconds later the ref is motioning to the corner as he struggles to keep the big lump upright.
I'd agree Lennox stops AJ at this stage.
Yeh AJ is definitely not near a peak and had not began to learn or show major adjustments imo until mid point of the Wlad fight. Ironically AJ reminded me of the aloof version of Lennox at times in his last fight. Wasn't putting shots together, jab was half ass and was reacting and talking up Takam. At this point Lewis balls AJ like he was dirty laundry and leaves him in a heap. One thing I never thought I'd say so clear cut is that Lennox was just way to fluid for him right now. In fairness though at similar point in his career Lewis was looking so-so after pole axing Ruddock. I don't think he found his stride really until Morrison, the war with respected Mercer..even though the long jabber was out jabbed by a stocky bulldozer :-X..and McCall getting all teary eyed in 'revenge' rematch. AJ has a massive future but in the back of my mind I just hope he doesn't get too far ahead of himself, inside and outside of the ring, as he refines his tools along the way.
The problem with historic matches is the rose colored glasses. People make lazy statements that dumb things down like Lennox took people lightly, against X Y or Z he wouldn't. Lennox was lazy, if anyone could tell who he would take lightly it wouldn't have happened.
Bruno was beating the snot out of him and he was about to go until he landed a miracle punch.
Vital was pummeling him.
Rahman set him up and took him out.
McCall knocked him out with a punch that was planned before the fight.
Point being, he wasn't perfect. But he is without a doubt one of the greatest ever. AJ has not proven that yet so you have to pick LL
peak for peak, FFS Lewis BLOWS THAT LIL BOY'S WET CHEEKS OUT in about 4 rounds.
AJ goes same way as Michael Grant
Consider how LL despatched Gary Mason early in his career and almost laughed at GMs lunges.
Nothing AJ can do, he would get Ass handed to him no matter how much better he gets over his career.
OK lets pit their opponents against each other in order to gain an idea of what level they both were at with their careers at the same amount of fights, is that fairer than comparing a peak Lewis with a current AJ?
21 fights in and Lennox Lewis held the Commonwealth (British Empire) Heavyweight Title, EBU (European) Heavyweight Title and the BBBofC British Heavyweight Title
21 fights in and AJ holds the IBF World Heavyweight Title, International Boxing Organization World Heavyweight Title and the WBA Super World Heavyweight Title and is fighting for the WBO World Heavyweight Title
It took Lewis just over 3 years of his professional career to reach his 21st fight, AJ will hit 21 fights after about 4 1/2 years, 4 1/2 years into Lennox's career he had just fought Frank Bruno
I can't really comment on Lennox's opponents because I would have only been around 6 years old when he was fighting this lot.
Lennox opponents on the left, AJ's on the right
Al Malcolm v Emanuele Leo
Bruce Johnson v Paul Butlin
Andrew Gerrars v Hrvoje Kisicek
Steve Garber v Dorian Darch
Melvin Epps v Hector Avila
Greg Gorrell v Matt Legg
Noel Quarless v Matt Skelton
Calvin Jones v Konstantin Airich
Michael Simuwelu v Denis Bakhtov
Jorge Dascola v Michael Sprott
Dan Mucphy v Jason Gavern
Ossie Ocasio v Raphael Zumabo Love
Mike Acey v Kevin Johnson
Jean Maurice Chanet v Gary Cornish
Gary Mason v Dillian Whyte
Mike Weaver v Charles Martin
Glenn McCrory v Dominic Breazeale
Tyrell Biggs v Eric Molina
Levi Billups v Wladimir Klitschko
Derek Williams v Carlos Takem
Mike Dixon v Joseph Parker
Gary Mason v Dillian Whyte sounds like a good scrap, think Mason wins.
That's a solid breakdown. I give a 40 yr old Weaver a fair shake vs the Martin who faced AJ ;D.
AJ has a standout victory against Wlad which beats early Lennox's opponents.
WTF was Lennox even fighting Glenn McCrory?
Local consumption for a flimsy trinket defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
In fairness Lewis was laughed at Stateside and dismissed as 'typical straight up guy from Europe' before Ruddock break out win. Honestly the boxing world was still very isolated as far as 'across the pond'. AJ was ushered in with multiple media platforms and had his belt gift wrapped from Martin and massive Wlad recongnition following. Lets face it the division was also thriving compared to recent times. Even after embarrassing loss to Fury.
Lewis had entered heavyweight elimination against the top 3 guys in division and was more that willing to square off with Bowe in finale, only to have Bowe wet himself and opt out. Leaving Lewis to make official statement title win vs Don King default Tony Tucker. He was forced a backward step there.
Good idea Batman.
It's quite staggering how much stronger AJ's opposition is by comparison, he has a superb record for a heavyweight with so few fights.
I suspect Al Malcolm and Emanuele Leo may have both sparked out Prince Charles Martin ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I think it depends entirely on what age you are. I remember a lot of Lewis' opponents and they were handier fighters than AJ's. That doesn't make Joshua a worse fighter ...
It also depends on what colour glasses you wear.Quote:
Originally Posted by XQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I think it depends entirely on what age you are. I remember a lot of Lewis' opponents and they were handier fighters than AJ's. That doesn't make Joshua a worse fighter ...
Anyone that remembers Quarless, Chanet, Williams, McCrory etc is having a laugh if they think they were better competition than guys like Sprott or Bakhtov let alone Takam or Whyte.
Biggs and Weaver over Breazeale and even bloody Martin? Or Kingpin? Really?
Get those rose-tinted goggles off.
Lennox's era was a lot tougher and probably the hardest with the 1970's. It was important to get good grounding and experience because when they were ready to fight for the title they had at least gone the distance in their fights.
If AJ was fighting in that era he would have taken the same path Lennox did and conversely I am sure Lennox would have gone for the title a lot quicker as AJ did.
I believe he was goaded into it by Glen McCrory when they both attended a boxing evening. He must have needed the funds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I don't know, Fenster .....
I think a decent journeyman is likely the same back then as now - experienced, will go a few rounds, knows enough to not get hurt but probably not win.
I think the fringe contenders are weaker now. A bit more hyped, not many fights or experience at all. I think it's easier to climb the ranks now than then, generally speaking.
I'd be interested to know how many rounds the currently ranked numbers 5-15 heavyweights have, compared to those in Lewis' rise, then again in Tyson's rise, then again in Ali's rise, then again in (say) Joe Loius' rise.
They actually did a good job at doing what one needed to do at the time and that for lack of a better term is Americanizing..as if 3 Countries weren't enough ;D..Lewis and upping his exposure. He had to lay pavement and make a road. They upped his familiarity by running the same tight circuit of journeymen fellow American 'prospects' were doing. You see it in every division in any era looking to one up with comparison. Weaver was good in that he made network tv. Shoot Biggs was fresh of feeding a young Bowe 101 jabs and running a bit even and Lewis on same card with Holyfield v Cooper was prime spot. Billups was frsh off big upset of geezer Bonecrusher Smith and Moorer fight on hbo. Dixon had soaked up tremendous bombs from Sanders and Seldon. In hindsight they really marketed him decently over here, made the needed heavyweight familiarity first. It's much different today. AJ can sit at home and promote his showcases from the latrine on a live stream and have everyone bussed in for him.
My comments were specifically about the level of competition faced after 20 fights, nothing to do with which era was stronger.
I disagree that one era was superior to another, I believe journeymen, fringe contenders and "champions" time-warped into different eras would have the same/similar existence. The smaller guys would be bigger and the bigger guys leaner/slicker etc.
There's more opportunity to be called champion today, so in turn it makes long standing challengers and champions from the past look stronger and today's crop appear weaker. You offer IBF "champion" Charles Martin as a representive of this weak era yet Glenn McCrory proudly dines out on being "world" champion, he won a vacant IBF title against an 8-2 Patrick Lumumba, he was matched with Lewis specifically because he was former "world" champion.
It's easy to highlight the flaws of modern fighters as we know EVERTHING about their lives, we get to watch all their fights, it takes seconds to produce their records. Training camps, sparring partners, press conferences, weigh-ins, we see everything.
We don't have to rely on stories, opinions and biases of other men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
My comments were specifically about the level of competition faced after 20 fights, nothing to do with which era was stronger.
I disagree that one era was superior to another, I believe journeymen, fringe contenders and "champions" time-warped into different eras would have the same/similar existence. The smaller guys would be bigger and the bigger guys leaner/slicker etc.
There's more opportunity to be called champion today, so in turn it makes long standing challengers and champions from the past look stronger and today's crop appear weaker. You offer IBF "champion" Charles Martin as a representive of this weak era yet Glenn McCrory proudly dines out on being "world" champion, he won a vacant IBF title against an 8-2 Patrick Lumumba, he was matched with Lewis specifically because he was former "world" champion.
It's easy to highlight the flaws of modern fighters as we know EVERTHING about their lives, we get to watch all their fights, it takes seconds to produce their records. Training camps, sparring partners, press conferences, weigh-ins, we see everything.
We don't have to rely on stories, opinions and biases of other men.
Going through rounds of all the contenders from different eras is a job for a supernerd (i'm just a bored semi-nerd), however, these records give some insight into the experience of fighters from yesteryear to today (obviously it can't gauge the quality of opposition).Quote:
Originally Posted by X
The average number of fights between the highest first time winner (39) and lowest (16) is 27
Joe Louis was having his 33rd fight when he became world champion against Braddock 50-25-7, the overall combined win/loss record of his next 5 opponents is 299 wins/57 losses/31 draws (Total fights - 397)
Liston - 34th fight beat Patterson 38-2-0 / WLD record - 131/12/3 (146)
Ali - 20th fight beat Liston 35-1-0 / WLD record - 180/41/3 (224)
Now into the age of multi-titles (70s), the titles fractured when Spinks was stripped after beating Ali.
Frazier - 25th fight beat Eliis 27-5-0 (WBC/WBA) / WLD record - 169/9/2 (180)
Foreman - 38th fight beat Frazier 29-0-0 (WBC/WBA) / WLD record - 181/17/2 (200)
Holmes - 27th fight beat Norton 40-4-0 (WBC) / WLD record - 139/21/4 (164)
The IBF is now a factor (80s/90s)
Tyson - 28th fight beat Berbick 34-4-1 (WBC) / WLD record - 145/8/1 (154)
Lewis - 22nd fight beat Ruddock* 27-3-1 (WBC) / WLD record - 162/20/1 (183)
Holyfield - 25th fight beat Douglas 30-4-1 (WBC/WBA/IBF) / WLD record - 212/16/0 (22(8))
Bowe - 32nd fight beat Holyfield 28-0-0 (WBC/WBA/IBF) WLD - 126/13/2 (141)
The WBO becomes relevant (2000s)
Vitai - 25th fight beat Hide 31-1-0 (WBO) / WLD record - 179/11/3 (193)
Wlad - 35th fight beat Byrd 31-1-0 (WBO) / WLD record - 142/12/6 (160)
Wilder - 34th fight beat Stiverne 24-1-0 (WBC) / WLD - 129/11/3 (143)
Joshua - 16th fight beat Martin 23-0-1 (IBF) / WLD record - 153/10/1 (164)
Conclusion - It's easier to win a title today, as should be expected, however, from the 60s to today the disparity between the actual number of fights hasn't changed much if at all.
*title wasn't on the line but Lewis was awarded title on back of this result
You forgot Marciano
I wish you would.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
That is Some research! :appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterGoing through rounds of all the contenders from different eras is a job for a supernerd (i'm just a bored semi-nerd), however, these records give some insight into the experience of fighters from yesteryear to today (obviously it can't gauge the quality of opposition).Quote:
Originally Posted by X
The average number of fights between the highest first time winner (39) and lowest (16) is 27
Joe Louis was having his 33rd fight when he became world champion against Braddock 50-25-7, the overall combined win/loss record of his next 5 opponents is 299 wins/57 losses/31 draws (Total fights - 397)
Liston - 34th fight beat Patterson 38-2-0 / WLD record - 131/12/3 (146)
Ali - 20th fight beat Liston 35-1-0 / WLD record - 180/41/3 (224)
Now into the age of multi-titles (70s), the titles fractured when Spinks was stripped after beating Ali.
Frazier - 25th fight beat Eliis 27-5-0 (WBC/WBA) / WLD record - 169/9/2 (180)
Foreman - 38th fight beat Frazier 29-0-0 (WBC/WBA) / WLD record - 181/17/2 (200)
Holmes - 27th fight beat Norton 40-4-0 (WBC) / WLD record - 139/21/4 (164)
The IBF is now a factor (80s/90s)
Tyson - 28th fight beat Berbick 34-4-1 (WBC) / WLD record - 145/8/1 (154)
Lewis - 22nd fight beat Ruddock* 27-3-1 (WBC) / WLD record - 162/20/1 (183)
Holyfield - 25th fight beat Douglas 30-4-1 (WBC/WBA/IBF) / WLD record - 212/16/0 (22(8))
Bowe - 32nd fight beat Holyfield 28-0-0 (WBC/WBA/IBF) WLD - 126/13/2 (141)
The WBO becomes relevant (2000s)
Vitai - 25th fight beat Hide 31-1-0 (WBO) / WLD record - 179/11/3 (193)
Wlad - 35th fight beat Byrd 31-1-0 (WBO) / WLD record - 142/12/6 (160)
Wilder - 34th fight beat Stiverne 24-1-0 (WBC) / WLD - 129/11/3 (143)
Joshua - 16th fight beat Martin 23-0-1 (IBF) / WLD record - 153/10/1 (164)
Conclusion - It's easier to win a title today, as should be expected, however, from the 60s to today the disparity between the actual number of fights hasn't changed much if at all.
*title wasn't on the line but Lewis was awarded title on back of this result