What do you think?
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What do you think?
Easy win for Loma, good tune up after surgery I guess for Loma and unifies another 2 belts. Needs to lead to a Garcia showdown tho.
Another route that I think is acceptable is it leading to Davis.
Earlier I was frustrated that for all the talk of Loma doing this and that so fast by number of fights in 6 years he has yet to face the best in any division he has campaigned. Seems a bit of hollow numbers. But I like the guy too much, I will back off my eagerness to see him challenge himself for another year. If it hasn’t happened by then I’m off the train.
Loma always fights the best who are willing to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
He wanted to fight Davis at 130, but Gervonta's management decided they didn't want the fight.
The bad feelings between Mikey Garcia and Bob Arum may prevent Loma-Garcia from happening. But Loma wants it.
Davis has work at 130 for me Berchelt, Farmer before moving up. He has already struggled with the weight, so he could move up sooner. 135 is pretty thin other than Garcia and Linares in terms of big top class fights, so it could be a very good match up.
Pedraza is a pretty good fighter, but he is nowhere near the level of Loma. I understand the fight, but I’m not super excited for it or anything. I will definitely watch it though.
Easy win for Loma but it makes sense if he was going to face Beltran.
Who are the "best" fighters Loma has swerved in each division? His record is completely and utterly brilliant for someone with a dozen fights.
He did lose to Salido, but I guess Salido didn't make 126 and never fought there again so we can't count that. The Russell Jr fight was brilliant. Especially considering where Gary is considerded now.
Uchiyama was the man at 130 but had been beaten just prior to Loma moving to 130 by Corrales, you could argue Corrales should have been considered the man at 130, or Salido who should have got the nod over Martinez in the rematch and Vargas, both were ruled draws. Loma iced Martinez tho. Vargas got beaten by Berchelt and Corrales got beaten by Machado, Loma was still at 130 while these 2 were present.
Now we have Mikey at 135. Let's hope it happens.
Loma's record is fantastic tho.
Linares was rated top 10 P4P by The Ring and without doubt had been top 1-2 at 135 for years. Loma stops him on his 135 debut but it's irrelevant as Mikey is 135 king.
Rigo P4P for years, the most dodged great in history. Loma stops him but it's irrelevant as Rigo was to small.
Walters was no.1 at featherweight, unbeaten (but for a robbery draw) and considered a fearsome punching huge featherweight. Loma stops him but it's irrelevant as it was at 130.
It's nothing but fans nitpicking Loma's record. If he faced the guys he apparently swerved the same fans would be arguing he ducked the names above.
I dare anyone to argue Crawford or Mikey's record is better? Yeah, Indongo and Horn and Postol? Gamboa is arguably Crawford's best win, who had life and death with Sosa, another Loma KO victim. Mikey has beat whom? Broner and Salido and Lopez and Martinez? More Loma victims.
This is nothing new of course, all great fighters get this treatment, I remember when Floyd was constantly ducking Shamba Mitchell among many other former forgotten fan favourites.
I wasn't being sarcastic, I think Loma's record Is fantastic.
I was answering the question you asked about the best fighters in the divisions.
I think he should have fought Berchelt and Corrales before moving up from 130. Walters and Sosa and Rigondeaux were not the best in the division. There was also Salido who I pointed out should have had wins over Martinez and Vargas and held a win over Loma. Even Davis was around (although Floyd wouldn't let that happen).
I wouldn't have had Linares in the P4P although I think he was the #1 lightweight with Garcia being at 140. Now that Garcia is back they both need that fight.
Was Russell Jr #1 at 126 when they fought? I doubt it, he hadn't beat anyone.
Salido did beat him. Mikey defeated Salido and also holds a win over Martinez, anther guy on Loma's record. I personally think Mikey's record is on par, if not better.
Salido, Zlaticanin, Broner, Lipnets and Easter also undefeated.
Vs
Russell Jr, Walters, Sosa, Rigo, Linares.
Just my opinion.
Just on your last part there Fenster about Floyd ducking Mitchell, I don't remember it that way. He should have faced Freitas or Casamayor before leaving 130, Spadafora and Dorin at 135, and at 140 the only guy he should have targeted was Tszyu.
Can you say anything without painting a dishonest picture? I didn’t say a word about him swerving anyone. I said he didn’t fight the best. Gary Russell in a vacant fight, not best. Moved up and Roman Martinez, not best. Moved up and Jorge Linares, not best. See, if you don’t change what I said it’s true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I want to see the guy fight the best because he’s that good
I just don’t buy this.(no offense)If fighters want fights they happen. Have we heard Loma say he is telling Bob to get him Garcia? Because we’ve heard Garcia “Loma is my best option so we are talking to people at Top Rank because Arum WON’T TALK TO US”. Mikey’s dad is quite clear he wants the Loma fight, Mikey’s trainer is quite clear he wants the Loma fight. Mikey says as far as risk/reward it is the best fight out there for him and he wants it but knows he won’t get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomLoma always fights the best who are willing to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
He wanted to fight Davis at 130, but Gervonta's management decided they didn't want the fight.
The bad feelings between Mikey Garcia and Bob Arum may prevent Loma-Garcia from happening. But Loma wants it.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Loma would take the fight if it was presented to him. But it is his side that is holding it up so it is his job to be forceful that he wants it.
Look how far the double standards are in responsibility. The last thread talking about this fight we acknowledged
Arum won’t talk to Mikey
Arum says he won’t negotiate with Mikey
Arum says he is willing to make Mikey an offer
Mikey says he is willing to negotiate
Mikey is even trying with those at TR that will talk with him
The one sticking point on Mikey’s side is he won’t sign an extension withTR
Now what was said about these known facts. People argued Mikey should sign an extended contract with TR. Why? If this sticking point was reversed nobody would say Loma should sign an extended contract to a promoter of Mikey’s choosing.
Nobody is saying Loma should demand Arum negotiates with Mikey, nobody is even saying Loma should demand Arum even speaks to Mikey. Why not?
Nobody is asking where is the offer Arum said he would make. Why not?
If people can’t see there is a double standard it is only because they are ignoring what is obvious to see.
—-
What’s crazy about this is I really like Loma, I believe he is willing to fight whoever Arum tells him to fight, sort of. I only say sort of because everyone seems to have to come to him. In most he’s the name so okay, but PAC has to come to 135 according to Loma himself, why? Why not 138, 137? Always to him. I’m in no way saying he is avoiding. I’m just saying he is not facilitating.
If it’s his side that is keeping a Mikey fight from happening, and we know it is. He bares some responsibility. But people “Mikey should be out there making a scene forcing the fight”. Why is it the side that is willing that gets all the responsibility? If Loma is indeed looking to fight the best where are the calls for him to demand it?
Again, not saying he isn’t willing, just pointing out that there is a clear double standard.
Hindsight being 20-20 it's a much better show for Loma than Beltran if he showed up remotely close to the Beltran we saw over the weekend. But still, it's just trinket collecting for Loma and Arum nothing more. Pedraza didn't just earn his spot he took someone else's and respect for that but he'll be the canvas and Loma will do the painting that night. I want these guys to get the 135 house in order, Garcia and Loma will go down as a super-fight missed. They really do need each other. More so now since both will hold all the shiny objects assuming Pedraza doesn't shock the world. Also Commey is a formidable fight for any of the trinket holders.
My thoughts?
My thoughts are I'll be rooting for Pedraza, but understand that Loma should be comfortably favored.
I never thought you was being sarcastic, I wasn't disputing anything you said, Berchelt would be a good matchup as would Tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
MY OPINION is Loma fought better, much better fighters regardless of who was considered no.1 at the time he was involved in them.
And no way in a million years can I have Mikey's opposition as superior. How many of his victims are probable HOFamers? Loma has two probables already in Linares and Rigo and Russell Jr hasn't lost since Loma schooled him. Plus you have to take the number of fights and career timespan into account.
Garcia has been a pro 12 years with 39 fights.
Loma has been a pro for 4 years with 12 fights.
But again, it's just my opinion
Can you read anything I write without thinking it's about you? Did I quote you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonCan you say anything without painting a dishonest picture? I didn’t say a word about him swerving anyone. I said he didn’t fight the best. Gary Russell in a vacant fight, not best. Moved up and Roman Martinez, not best. Moved up and Jorge Linares, not best. See, if you don’t change what I said it’s true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I want to see the guy fight the best because he’s that good
I asked a general question for anyone on the forum, that's how this place works, everyone is welcome to offer their thoughts, everyone has a right to ask questions and question the statements of other members. Okay? So back to the topic
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Who was no.1 at featherweight when Loma beat Russell? Walters? Donaire? Salido? Selby?
At superfeather it was apparently Corrales? Uchiyama? At lightweight who said Garcia is above Linares?
What ratings are you using? What publication? All I can see is Loma beat/fought better guys than anyone mentioned barring Garcia.
Here's a little bit on Garcia's record, we can go back and forth and pick each guys record apart, but there's no need (we all know the arguments). They are both great, both P4P, the only way to settle it is to fight.
Mikey fought (and beat) a better version of Salido than Loma faced, he was on a 5 fight win streak that included 2 of his best wins. He was also ranked #1 by The Ring. It was also for The Ring title. Salido also defeated Loma a year later.
The version of Martinez that Loma faced was coming off 2 tough bouts with Salido, and had been stopped in 8, 4 fights (and 2 and a half years) prior by Mikey. I don't really count this fight when comparing their records as both defeated Martinez.
Zlaticanin the WBC lightweight champion was arguably the #2 guy at 135 when Mikey fought him, only behind Linares and had solid wins over Petrov, Burns, and an unbeaten at the time Redkach. Interestingly Linares was supposed to defend against Zlaticanin, but had to pull out due to injury. He was named champion in recess and could have fought for the title once he had returned from injury. Zlaticanin had picked up the vacant WBC title in the interim, Linares chose a different route (the WBA title).
Most of us considered Broner the #1 lightweight before he moved to 147. He was already a 4 division title holder when Mikey fought him and was unbeaten at 140 heading in (Garcia is the only man to beat him at 140).
Lipnets was the undefeated IBF 140 pound beltholder, and although some publications had him ranked quite high (TBRB had him #2 I think), he was more realistically in the bottom half of the top 10 at 140. But fighting an unbeaten champion at a higher weight class in only your 2nd fight at the weight is more prestigious than a routine defense.
Robert Easter was the unbeaten IBF lightweight champion heading in and had fight solid opposition in Mendez, Commey, Shafikov, and Fortuna. Garcia dominated to win only the 10th lightweight title unification fight in history and first since 2009.
Garcia won titles in 4 weight divisions in a stretch of 8 fights. Loma has a stretch of 10 fights to win 3 titles in 3 divisions.
Garcia winning titles at 126, 130, 135 and 140 pounds puts him in a group that includes Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez as the only fighters to win titles in those weight classes.
Nice write up, however, I don't even think they're the best names Garcia has faced. Juan Manuel Lopez has better credentials than most on that list and possibly Burgos (but that is nitpicking). I'm far more impressed by the caliber of opposition over alphabet titles. For instance, Ricky Burns is a three weight "world" champion and Julius Indongo was a unified champion, neither are going anywhere near the boxing hall of fame, neither have ever been close to top 10 P4P rated.
Incidentally I googled the Transnational Boxing Rankings Board (which was quoted). They currently have Loma no.1 P4P and at 135.
P4P
1 Vasyl Lomachenko UKR 11-1-0 (9) Lightweight
2 Terence Crawford USA 33-0-0 (24) Welterweight
3 Srisaket Sor Rungvisai * THA 46-4-1 (41) Jr. Bantamweight
4 Oleksandr Usyk * UKR 14-0-0 (11) Cruiserweight
5 Mikey Garcia * USA 39-0-0 (30) Lightweight/ Jr. Welterweight
6 Naoya Inoue JPN 16-0-0 (14) Bantamweight
7 Gennady Golovkin KAZ 38-0-1 (34) Middleweight
8 Leo Santa Cruz USA 35-1-1- (19) Featherweight
9 Errol Spence Jr. USA 24-0-0 (21) Welterweight
10 Anthony Joshua ENG 21-0-0 (20) Heavyweight
Lightweight
1 Vasyl Lomachenko 11-1-0 (9)
2 Mikey Garcia 39-0-0 (30)
3 Jorge Linares 44-4-0 (27)
4 Raymundo Beltran 35-8-1 (21)
5 Robert Easter Jr. 21-1-0 (14)
6 Richard Commey 27-2-0 (24)
7 Anthony Crolla 33-6-3 (13)
8 Luke Campbell 18-2-0 (15)
9 Yvan Mendy 40-4-1 (19)
10 Roberto Ramirez 18-2-1 (13)[/B]
Personally I think the TBRB ratings are a very poor, and I don't put much stock in P4P lists.
Like I said we could through each guys record and pull each apart.
The biggest things for me are, Rigo may be a HOFer but not for anything he has done at 130, which was 2 weights above 122.
Linares is a question mark, he had already been lost 3 times by ko prior to Loma, 2 to much lower competition and you could argue he had been playing it safe with opposition since the Thompson loss. You could argue he avoided Zlaticanin, who Mikey fought in his 2nd fight back. If you think Linares is a probable HOFer, then I think you could say Broner and Salido could probably be as well.
Then the big one, Loma lost to a guy Mikey pretty much dominated.
I stand by my original state that Mike's record is on par, if not better than Loma's, but again it's just my opinion.
You used TBRB ratings to highlight Lipinets worth, now you're saying their ratings are worthless? Fair enough, I was just using the source you provided.
I don't see Loma's razor-thin loss, in his 2nd pro fight and first go at 12 rounds as a negative, I believe it only highlights the superior level he has operated at.
You're argument is ("the big one") - Mikey's record is boosted by his win over Salido who beat Loma. Well if that's the case you can argue everyone who has beat Salido is better than Loma. Salido has lost a dozen or so times.
My point is - Loma has beat better fighters than Salido, much better. I don't need excuses or explanations, quite simply Rigo, Linares and Walters are superior opposition to Salido, who is nothing more than Roman Martinez level, a man Loma subsequently annihilated after Martinez beat Salido.
Mikey is a great fighter without a standout/signature win, hence he doesn't currently top any reputable P4P raankings after winning four titles in four divisions and going 40 fights unbeaten.
I said some publications had Lipnets rated highly and used the TBRB as an example as I think they had him #2. I said I thought he was bottom half of the top 10 at 140. I don't think much of their ratings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Salido was #1 at feather when Mikey fought him.
And what I mean by 'the big one' is that Loma lost.
If Loma had fought Rigo at 126 it may have counted for more in my eyes.
Linares had already been blown out and had been playing it safe with his opposition.
I don't really pay P4P much mind, as I said, it's too subjective. I never said Mikey was #1 P4P. There are probably 5/6 guys at the moment that you could make an argument for the #1 spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
I think most boxing fans feel as you do. Even Loma himself recognized "This is not his weight, so it's not a big win for me." The buildup to the fight was huge, what with two two-time Olympic gold medal winners facing off. RJJ himself was quoted as hyperbolizing..... "To me, on paper, this is the best professional fight that has ever been made." Obviously, with that kind of pre-fight hype, Loma fans can be forgiven for latching onto that fight in their Loma arguments. But the truth is that Rigo jumped two weight divisions to fight Loma after having fought at super bantam his entire pro career. Can't really blame him, since guys in his own division wanted nothing to do with him. Think of Kell Brook, who foolishly jumped two divisions to fight GGG. We all know how that ended. Not considered a big win in GGG's ledger, either.
TBH, Loma's win over Walters was a bit more impressive, although Walters totally dismayed his fans by quitting, and hasn't been heard of since. Doesn't sound like his head was really into boxing.
I had high hopes for Nicholas Walters but definitely gone off the rails. Still an impressive win for Loma.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I like the Walters win but it is deceptive, his best wins were arguably Donaire and Darchinyan, what had either guy really done at 126? Walters hadn't done anything at 130.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI had high hopes for Nicholas Walters but definitely gone off the rails. Still an impressive win for Loma.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Nicholas Walters is the only man to stop Donaire and that is some feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaI like the Walters win but it is deceptive, his best wins were arguably Donaire and Darchinyan, what had either guy really done at 126? Walters hadn't done anything at 130.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI had high hopes for Nicholas Walters but definitely gone off the rails. Still an impressive win for Loma.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
With benefit of hindsight and even though I liked Walters I think the fact he's done absolutely nothing after his lone loss says something about how 'good' he may have been in actuality. He peaked and crashed in about 2 yrs time. Good win for Loma no doubt but on his record I'd rank Russell higher. What we're realizing is that you cannot have a Loma discussion without Garcia, and vice versa. A guys record can be picked apart but it has to come down to quality of opponent case by case for me not so much where they were ranked. Also saw mention of Linares and he imo has to be foremost on Lomas record. Sure he may have been sparked earlier in career but wasn't he more than willing and ready to go with Mikey prior to Loma but it was Mikey who opted to settle on a 4th division trinket rather than a substantive division threat. If he's quality enough for Mikey to think about he's certainly quality enough for Loma to share a ring with.
I think that Russell Jr is Loma’s best win. Russell is a good fighter who just isn’t as rated because of his inactivity. He is a very good fighter and Loma comfortably won the fight. No excuses whatsoever.
Lomachenko embarrasses Pedraza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
Great posts guys
I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).
It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.
Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.
Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.
At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.
And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.
Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.
The fact everyone is talking about Loma's opposition instead of Mikey's sums it up. Fans know all about Loma's opposition whereas nobody is ever going to point to Lipinets or Easter or Zlat or even Salido and reel off who they beat, most fans know Salido through Loma and probably can't recall anything about the others.
You can downplay Linares but hardcore/nerds instantly think - three weight champion, no.1 lightweight, P4P, Ring champion, etc. Linares was a big star (in the boxing hardcore/nerd world) before he suffered his first shock loss.
Walters - no.1 featherweight, unbeaten, sparko puncher, stopped future hall of famer Donaire.
And this perfectly sums up the Rigo sentiment, it's a fight for the history books, regardless of the disappointing onesided outcome.
Mikey needs a Loma or Spence or Crawford to generate this type of feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Again the original argument was about Loma facing the best fighters in each division.
It has been pointed out who I think those guys were.
If you could provide the guys that you think were the best in the divisions that Loma beat it would help.
I'll even give you Linares. Even tho I don't think he was.
I think of myself as a hardcore fan, I can tell you exactly what Salido has done, I even mentioned some of it earlier.
Mate, I didn't dispute anything about the original argument (which wasn't an argument). I merely stated Corrales or Uchiyama wouldn't have boosted Loma's record in any way with the "nitpickers," the same people moaning about him not fighting the best would be saying he ducked Rigo and Linares, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
We then moved on to best opposition overall - Mikey or Loma? This is what the conversation evolved into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
I believe the bottom rung of fighters are better than the top, regardless of circumstances, rankings, ratings and weightclasses.
Everyone who has entered the discussion since has spoke about Rigo, Donaire, Walters and Russel Jr, nobody is mentioning Mikey's opp. I think there's an obvious reason.
I am more than happy to go through Mikey's record, I already posted some of it. You also said you thought he had better wins than the one I mentioned. So we could include those as well. I took up your dare to prove that Mikeys record is better. And I still think it is. Shouldn't it be on you to pick his record apart?Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterMate, I didn't dispute anything about the original argument (which wasn't an argument). I merely stated Corrales or Uchiyama wouldn't have boosted Loma's record in any way with the "nitpickers," the same people moaning about him not fighting the best would be saying he ducked Rigo and Linares, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
We then moved on to best opposition overall - Mikey or Loma? This is what the conversation evolved into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
I believe the bottom rung of fighters are better than the top, regardless of circumstances, rankings, ratings and weightclasses.
Everyone who has entered the discussion since has spoke about Rigo, Donaire, Walters and Russel Jr, nobody is mentioning Mikey's opp. I think there's an obvious reason.
And again, Ron said Loma hadn't fought the best fighters in each division, and these guys have been mentioned.
You asked Who are the "best" fighters Loma has swerved in each division?
So again Mikey at 135, we may still get this fingers crossed. But they haven't fought.
Berchelt, Corrales/Machado at 130. Never fought.
I think either Salido or Gonzalez were the top 2 at 126. But he lost to Salido and never fought Gonzalez.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAnd this perfectly sums up the Rigo sentiment, it's a fight for the history books, regardless of the disappointing onesided outcome.
Mikey needs a Loma or Spence or Crawford to generate this type of feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Taken juuuuuuuust a bit out of context, but ok.
Here's my original post, with the critical parts highlighted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
I think most boxing fans feel as you do. Even Loma himself recognized "This is not his weight, so it's not a big win for me." The buildup to the fight was huge, what with two two-time Olympic gold medal winners facing off. RJJ himself was quoted as hyperbolizing..... "To me, on paper, this is the best professional fight that has ever been made." Obviously, with that kind of pre-fight hype, Loma fans can be forgiven for latching onto that fight in their Loma arguments. But the truth is that Rigo jumped two weight divisions to fight Loma after having fought at super bantam his entire pro career. Can't really blame him, since guys in his own division wanted nothing to do with him. Think of Kell Brook, who foolishly jumped two divisions to fight GGG. We all know how that ended. Not considered a big win in GGG's ledger, either.
Still..... it gives me an idea for a new thread on pre-fight hype.
I think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world ??? and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGreat posts guys
I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).
It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.
Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.
Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.
At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.
And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.
Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.
Can I just say (because I missed it before, and Fenster mentioned it) when I say argument, I mean debate, discussion was probably the better word to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliI think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world ??? and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGreat posts guys
I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).
It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.
Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.
Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.
At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.
And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.
Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.
Some nice points there Spicoli, lets take a look:
Most would have had Broner at #1 at 135 after the DeMarco fight. I'm sure we can all agree that he would have been ahead of Linares at the time, before rising in weight.
As I have mentioned, I P4P is just mythical and too subjective to put any stock in. For anyone that may have had Linares P4P heading into the Loma fight, that's fine, they are entitled to their opinion, but I could name a handful of guys I would have rated ahead.
The reason I brought up Thurman's inactivity was to point out inconsistence with inactivity. Thurman is allowed to remain rated by The Ring after almost the exact time (at this point) as Mikey was away from 135. Mikey was active, just at a higher weight and when asked he always stated he wanted to return to 135. Could I ask why he can't have it both ways? If he moves to 147 to Fight Spence, will you consider him a full time welter? Plus fighters in the old days moving up and down quite a bit, did you consider Armstrong a full time middleweight?
I agree Salido did look to be coming on, but who knows how much the injury had to play in that. To that point tho Mikey had dropped Salido several times and was dominating.
Lets hope they can make this fight, it is one of the current super fights that can be made among top P4P guys.
Totally, to much arguing in the world. Considering Linares was just emerging from his 4-3 run as a clay pigeon with all 3 coming via tko and Broner was in the short window of 135 I'd say yeh Broner made a case as #1. But it was a stopover for him is what I'm getting at and surely on career work at 135 Linares is the #1 operator between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCan I just say (because I missed it before, and Fenster mentioned it) when I say argument, I mean debate, discussion was probably the better word to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliI think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world ??? and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGreat posts guys
I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).
It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.
Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.
Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.
At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.
And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.
Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.
Some nice points there Spicoli, lets take a look:
Most would have had Broner at #1 at 135 after the DeMarco fight. I'm sure we can all agree that he would have been ahead of Linares at the time, before rising in weight.
As I have mentioned, I P4P is just mythical and too subjective to put any stock in. For anyone that may have had Linares P4P heading into the Loma fight, that's fine, they are entitled to their opinion, but I could name a handful of guys I would have rated ahead.
The reason I brought up Thurman's inactivity was to point out inconsistence with inactivity. Thurman is allowed to remain rated by The Ring after almost the exact time (at this point) as Mikey was away from 135. Mikey was active, just at a higher weight and when asked he always stated he wanted to return to 135. Could I ask why he can't have it both ways? If he moves to 147 to Fight Spence, will you consider him a full time welter? Plus fighters in the old days moving up and down quite a bit, did you consider Armstrong a full time middleweight?
I agree Salido did look to be coming on, but who knows how much the injury had to play in that. To that point tho Mikey had dropped Salido several times and was dominating.
Lets hope they can make this fight, it is one of the current super fights that can be made among top P4P guys.
Agreed, I have always looked at p4p as very subjective and frankly a marketing tag in many cases. Broner being one ;D. Of all discussions p4p is one that seems most scattered with no point by point definition. I think the Ring conflates a best fighter for the best in division at times. I remember Margo beating Cotto..all aftermath aside.. and the next issue he's top 10 p4p ???. A guy can top a guy in division but it definitely does not translate to 'top ten best boxer in the world'. Again, that's just based on visibility and marketing to me.
I don't think Thurman should be ranked and consistency is important. Not to over simplify it but I consider a guy 100 percent relevant to what they are doing and where they are doing it. We've made it worse now compared to the days of no 'jr' divisions and more so not having 1001 trinkets to jump at. Mikey and even previously mentioned Broner are two that are pretty erratic with the up and down. Likewise Broner had said he also wanted to return to 135 but I just believe on gauging a guy on what he does more so what he hopes or intends to do. Best laid plans often go awry and such. Mikey beats Lipinets and initially said he's keep the 140 strap didn't he but also intended to defend 135? You cannot hold two belts in different divisions. He was boasting about being a free agent and having options at 135-140-147 so he was frankly all over the place. Then he's handed a mandatory with new 140 belt, decides to drop it and return back to 135 but had already lost a much better event with Linares and opted for Easter in easily made match. It just doesn't seem like he has big picture vision and is now grasping, my words, at another easily made but woefully much harder and hard knock fight with Spence. It will to date be his premier big fight name but imo it will come at the price of a damaging loss. Did Armstrong ever fight at middleweight?
Excellent post mate, I agree that based on work done at 135, Linares is ahead of Broner, for those that feel Linares was #1 at 135 when he fought Loma, I'm fine with that, personally I had Mikey #1, he still held the WBC title, hence the unification with Easter.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliTotally, to much arguing in the world. Considering Linares was just emerging from his 4-3 run as a clay pigeon with all 3 coming via tko and Broner was in the short window of 135 I'd say yeh Broner made a case as #1. But it was a stopover for him is what I'm getting at and surely on career work at 135 Linares is the #1 operator between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCan I just say (because I missed it before, and Fenster mentioned it) when I say argument, I mean debate, discussion was probably the better word to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliI think the singular thing that helped that was Broner beating DeMarco after he had beat Linares a couple yrs earlier. That and the sheer push and visibility of a Broner who after all was at 135 for hardly a minute. I mean The Ring also had Broner ranked what..5,6 p4p in the world ??? and that for me summed up how the once bible of boxing had fallen. The Ring may still rank Thurman #1 but respectfully you, me, nearly everyone except Thurmans closest relatives know that doesn't pass the smell test. He is a man with a division passing him by. It's an entirely different issue but you don't get rewarded for not working your house. Be it injury or lawsuits or just jumping for more shiny objects etc the division stays in motion. That's on Mikey leaving even with 'special permission' and he can't have it both ways. All that aside..you have to give Mikey 100 percent respect for Salido at the point it happened. Salido from basically the point of debuting in the U.S has facing solid competition and crushed heavily hyped Juan Ma twice and always proved a tough nut to crack. I wanna say he was actually coming on a bit v Garcia until the broken nose and the fight being stopped. Didn't he also have a broke nose?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGreat posts guys
I'm not saying Linares isn't a fantastic fighter, watching him fight has always been a treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm just pointing out that when Broner and Linares were both at 135 almost everyone saw Broner as the #1 in the division. If Broner had stayed focused and at 135 it would have been interesting to see how a fight between the 2 would have been viewed by fans. I also never recognised Linares as the Ring champ (see my debate about recognised #1 and 2 in another thread).
It's debatable if Linares was the #1 guy at 135. As I pointed out in another thread The Ring still rates Thurman as #1 at 147 after almost 18 months of inactivity. Mikey returned to 135 exactly 18 months after fighting above but always indicated that he wanted to return to lightweight. It could be argued Mikey was still the #1 guy. Also we can't put all the blame on Mikey for Linares fight not happening. Look at the hoops Arum made GBP jump through to get the Linares fight done.
Russell was an excellent victory. It's just that he had fought no one prior to Loma and his opposition was very weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
The original debate was about the best fighters Loma hadn't faced in each division.
Salido was still arguably #1 at feather when Loma fought him. And although he failed to make weight, he did win the fight.
At 130 there was Berchelt, Corrales/Machado and even Salido.
And at 135 as I have pointed out, there was arguably Mikey.
Onto another point, with Mikey still talking the Spence fight, I think it should be viewed like Loma's challenging for a title in only his 2nd fight. It is a huge challenge and Mikey would be daring to be great.
Some nice points there Spicoli, lets take a look:
Most would have had Broner at #1 at 135 after the DeMarco fight. I'm sure we can all agree that he would have been ahead of Linares at the time, before rising in weight.
As I have mentioned, I P4P is just mythical and too subjective to put any stock in. For anyone that may have had Linares P4P heading into the Loma fight, that's fine, they are entitled to their opinion, but I could name a handful of guys I would have rated ahead.
The reason I brought up Thurman's inactivity was to point out inconsistence with inactivity. Thurman is allowed to remain rated by The Ring after almost the exact time (at this point) as Mikey was away from 135. Mikey was active, just at a higher weight and when asked he always stated he wanted to return to 135. Could I ask why he can't have it both ways? If he moves to 147 to Fight Spence, will you consider him a full time welter? Plus fighters in the old days moving up and down quite a bit, did you consider Armstrong a full time middleweight?
I agree Salido did look to be coming on, but who knows how much the injury had to play in that. To that point tho Mikey had dropped Salido several times and was dominating.
Lets hope they can make this fight, it is one of the current super fights that can be made among top P4P guys.
Agreed, I have always looked at p4p as very subjective and frankly a marketing tag in many cases. Broner being one ;D. Of all discussions p4p is one that seems most scattered with no point by point definition. I think the Ring conflates a best fighter for the best in division at times. I remember Margo beating Cotto..all aftermath aside.. and the next issue he's top 10 p4p ???. A guy can top a guy in division but it definitely does not translate to 'top ten best boxer in the world'. Again, that's just based on visibility and marketing to me.
I don't think Thurman should be ranked and consistency is important. Not to over simplify it but I consider a guy 100 percent relevant to what they are doing and where they are doing it. We've made it worse now compared to the days of no 'jr' divisions and more so not having 1001 trinkets to jump at. Mikey and even previously mentioned Broner are two that are pretty erratic with the up and down. Likewise Broner had said he also wanted to return to 135 but I just believe on gauging a guy on what he does more so what he hopes or intends to do. Best laid plans often go awry and such. Mikey beats Lipinets and initially said he's keep the 140 strap didn't he but also intended to defend 135? You cannot hold two belts in different divisions. He was boasting about being a free agent and having options at 135-140-147 so he was frankly all over the place. Then he's handed a mandatory with new 140 belt, decides to drop it and return back to 135 but had already lost a much better event with Linares and opted for Easter in easily made match. It just doesn't seem like he has big picture vision and is now grasping, my words, at another easily made but woefully much harder and hard knock fight with Spence. It will to date be his premier big fight name but imo it will come at the price of a damaging loss. Did Armstrong ever fight at middleweight?
Broner jumped up to 147 for what ever reasons. Had he returned to 135 after the Maidana fight (something I doubt he could have done, and I don't remember that being his intention, I feel he still would have rated ahead of Linares.
Also I question what Linares did to be considered P4P, or the #1 lightweight? A 13 fight win streak sounds nice, but Mitchell, Crolla and Campbell were the best during that time. Sure Mikey didn't do much at 135 either, but he beat the guy I thought was arguably #2 in the division Zlaticanin, arguably #1, and a guy you could say Linares skipped for whatever reason.
I have said previously that we can't put all the blame on Mikey for the Linares fight not happening. 2 sides to every story and all. I also pointed out how hard Arum made it for GBP to get the fight done. Mikey had already spent time on the shelf trying to get away from Top Rank, so that also adds friction to any negotiations between the 2 camps.