US needs to beef up its Air Force. Thoughts?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...id=mailsignout


First of all....... true? Fake news? I realize anything CNN says now needs to go through that "filter." :p

Supposing it's true, is the Air Force communicating a real concern? Are they just scaremongering to get additional funds?

What would conflicts with Russia, China, or both look like? Whatever they're like, it doesn't sound like a good thing for anybody.

Obviously the U.S. can't control the amounts of money apparently being spent by these other powers to beef up their military.

So what's the answer?

Well not really now but you always have to prepare for the future.

China is building the tech and certainly has an army amongst the largest in world. China is concerned they have had no active warfare in over 40 years. They have been hooking up with Russia for war games and learn from Russia’s Chechnya, Ukraine and Syrian war.

the US needs to build bases on the moon and on Mars and in the asteroid belt too because the US is never done with trying to dominate the world and the human race is never done trying to outdo each other Russia and China and the United States etc etc ad infinitum until we are all gone and wiped out

Good luck with that. 50 years ago China was laughing at you and now 50 years on they are much more powerful and shrugging their shoulders at these tit for tat economic digs. America has to accept that things have changed.

That is not an endorsement of China BTW, just a practical observation on the balance of power as it stands now. A war is unwinnable.

It's in this global arena that the U.S. needs to be savvy in its dealings with both China and Russia. These countries by themselves are not up to par with the U.S. if push comes to shove, but a partnership between the two would be a formidable force. While China and Russia have their share of differences, undue pressure from Washington could push them together. It's something to keep in mind.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Good luck with that. 50 years ago China was laughing at you and now 50 years on they are much more powerful and shrugging their shoulders at these tit for tat economic digs. America has to accept that things have changed.

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I don’t know about more powerful than us yet. This little trade dispute has knocked chinas stock market down to where it was in 2015. The yuan is losing against the dollar at this time. China was the first country to blow up a orbiting satellite via ground missile launch. Blew that satellite right up. China and Russia (I’m sure us as well) have weaponized satellites. Trumps call for a space force really isn’t crazy, that shit is gonna have to happen. It is a shame, think of all the good that could be done if we didn’t have stockpile weapons that will take out the world times 1000

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Good luck with that. 50 years ago China was laughing at you and now 50 years on they are much more powerful and shrugging their shoulders at these tit for tat economic digs. America has to accept that things have changed.

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Sure thing, we've been waiting for them to take over....been soooo looooong waiting waiting waiting

Hate to say it Lyle as I like you chaps and I hardly endorse a country that bans the books of one of my favorite writers, but one of the reasons you left with tail between the legs in Vietnam was because of the support of Russia and China. You were a much stronger country then too. You are seeing the same happen in Syria and China of course ignores your sanctions on Iran as does Russia with North Korea.

It is just something you cannot win. When those two are aligned you are outmatched and China of today is much richer than then. Their infrastructure like here is modern and pristine. Ask Brock what the New York subway is like andthe London Tube is some kind of antiquity. You chaps have lost the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq spending how much money? China meanwhile has of course built up its manufacturing and has a big world to trade with. America is only 300 million people. The sad thing is that it was all purposely given away by your elites. Thus you have tens of millions on welfare. China has all those jobs now and more as it has a huge domestic market too.

Building more aircraft is not going to change the balance of power.

Whole idea of additional bomber fleets seems so 1950's. But no one said Space Force would be cheap did they :-X.

Save the money and invest it on the infrastructure of the USA. It is a socialist idea but a good one.

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Originally Posted by Master

Save the money and invest it on the infrastructure of the USA. It is a socialist idea but a good one.

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Wow, that's a wonderful idea....now if only NATO and the UN didn't rely fully on American military strength.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Hate to say it Lyle as I like you chaps and I hardly endorse a country that bans the books of one of my favorite writers, but one of the reasons you left with tail between the legs in Vietnam was because of the support of Russia and China. You were a much stronger country then too. You are seeing the same happen in Syria and China of course ignores your sanctions on Iran as does Russia with North Korea.

It is just something you cannot win. When those two are aligned you are outmatched and China of today is much richer than then. Their infrastructure like here is modern and pristine. Ask Brock what the New York subway is like andthe London Tube is some kind of antiquity. You chaps have lost the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq spending how much money? China meanwhile has of course built up its manufacturing and has a big world to trade with. America is only 300 million people. The sad thing is that it was all purposely given away by your elites. Thus you have tens of millions on welfare. China has all those jobs now and more as it has a huge domestic market too.

Building more aircraft is not going to change the balance of power.

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miles at the Paris peace accords ho chi min said if the US kept up the carpet bombing for even a few more days he would have surrendered unconditionally. China an Russia helped Keep us bogged down but it was really public sentiment that ended it. Vietnam was another war the Europeans sucked us into, thanks France

US doesn't need any "sucking in to", it's the Greatest Satan in human history

Don't blame the French, they fled having lost 100, 000 men and you should have taken note. No, it was a war of your own choosing and on the way carried out genocide for a bunch of crooks in the south. 2 million dead people for what Walrus? Wanting their own nation state and having it run on their own terms? Isn't that what you wanted against the British?

I understand you are a patriotic kind of guy, but that was a needless war like most of them are. What business did Americans have in the jungles of Vietnam? Muhammad Ali was right when he said his enemy was right at home and not in Vietnam. That was a war against the interests of the American people. Did Trump go there? Did Bush? Did Clinton? No, it was the ordinary guy and they were defending a tyrannical South Vietnam in the interests of an elite that knew it was hopeless.

You sound a bit like the 'Let's nuke Japan chaps' with your evaluation of decades of carpet bombing. 'Just a few more days'.....2 million dead, Walrus. Every one of them with friends and family like yourself. Would you be happy were a foreign power carpet bombed your country? No, of course not. Sometimes you are wrong and that was a prime example. Even today people are dying of cancer because of the chemical weapons that were used. That's a cruel, cruel fate.

IMO you gotta tread carefully when discussing subjects like the Vietnam War. I can disagree with the motives for the war (I do), without shitting all over the brave servicemen and women who were sent to fight there. Remember, at that time, service wasn't exactly voluntary. The draft was big and inescapable for many. At a very young age, you just know that you're fighting a war for your country. You know little of the intricate politics behind the war itself. So I like to separate the politics and politicians from the soldiers who go over there and die. Did atrocities happen in Vietnam? Sure. But who here can attest to having been in a jungle environment, fighting an enemy who uses every possible means at their disposal, and knows the jungle 100 times more than you ever will? War is hell at any time and anywhere. But the Vietnam war was especially brutal. No smart bombs.... no drones.... no sandy, flat terrain to see your enemy coming from miles away. Just a jungle filled with booby traps.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Don't blame the French, they fled having lost 100, 000 men and you should have taken note. No, it was a war of your own choosing and on the way carried out genocide for a bunch of crooks in the south. 2 million dead people for what Walrus? Wanting their own nation state and having it run on their own terms? Isn't that what you wanted against the British?

I understand you are a patriotic kind of guy, but that was a needless war like most of them are. What business did Americans have in the jungles of Vietnam? Muhammad Ali was right when he said his enemy was right at home and not in Vietnam. That was a war against the interests of the American people. Did Trump go there? Did Bush? Did Clinton? No, it was the ordinary guy and they were defending a tyrannical South Vietnam in the interests of an elite that knew it was hopeless.

You sound a bit like the 'Let's nuke Japan chaps' with your evaluation of decades of carpet bombing. 'Just a few more days'.....2 million dead, Walrus. Every one of them with friends and family like yourself. Would you be happy were a foreign power carpet bombed your country? No, of course not. Sometimes you are wrong and that was a prime example. Even today people are dying of cancer because of the chemical weapons that were used. That's a cruel, cruel fate.

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I completely agree with Gandalf here. How dare people talk about a few more days of carpet bombing. All those white warmongers can go to hell because that's what we're talking about here they're all white. Does anybody know any black warmongers and if you do you can probably just name one or two. These are all white Anglo-Saxon warmongers. None of them are Armenian warmongers and none of them are Greek warmongers and none of them are Lebanese warmongers these are all white Anglo-Saxon warmongers let's be perfectly clear here. And Muhammad Ali was right the enemy was right there at home. there's no excuse for anybody in this country after what happened in Vietnam to not be able to know what the hell is going on with the military industrial complex and there was no excuse if you are in your teens and twenties by the 1980s or 1990s there's no excuse to contribute to that SATANIC war effort

BULLETS BIBLE AND BACON, RIGHT WHITE BOYS? NOW GET OUT THERE AND GIVE EM HELL BOYS. RED WHITE AND BLUE.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Don't blame the French, they fled having lost 100, 000 men and you should have taken note. No, it was a war of your own choosing and on the way carried out genocide for a bunch of crooks in the south. 2 million dead people for what Walrus? Wanting their own nation state and having it run on their own terms? Isn't that what you wanted against the British?

I understand you are a patriotic kind of guy, but that was a needless war like most of them are. What business did Americans have in the jungles of Vietnam? Muhammad Ali was right when he said his enemy was right at home and not in Vietnam. That was a war against the interests of the American people. Did Trump go there? Did Bush? Did Clinton? No, it was the ordinary guy and they were defending a tyrannical South Vietnam in the interests of an elite that knew it was hopeless.

You sound a bit like the 'Let's nuke Japan chaps' with your evaluation of decades of carpet bombing. 'Just a few more days'.....2 million dead, Walrus. Every one of them with friends and family like yourself. Would you be happy were a foreign power carpet bombed your country? No, of course not. Sometimes you are wrong and that was a prime example. Even today people are dying of cancer because of the chemical weapons that were used. That's a cruel, cruel fate.

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I completely agree with Gandalf here. How dare people talk about a few more days of carpet bombing. All those white warmongers can go to hell because that's what we're talking about here they're all white. Does anybody know any black warmongers and if you do you can probably just name one or two. These are all white Anglo-Saxon warmongers. None of them are Armenian warmongers and none of them are Greek warmongers and none of them are Lebanese warmongers these are all white Anglo-Saxon warmongers let's be perfectly clear here. And Muhammad Ali was right the enemy was right there at home. there's no excuse for anybody in this country after what happened in Vietnam to not be able to know what the hell is going on with the military industrial complex and there was no excuse if you are in your teens and twenties by the 1980s or 1990s there's no excuse to contribute to that SATANIC war effort

BULLETS BIBLE AND BACON, RIGHT WHITE BOYS? NOW GET OUT THERE AND GIVE EM HELL BOYS. RED WHITE AND BLUE.

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Have you been hacked???. Or suffering a mild seizure when posting this? I get the whole trolly McTroll thing you've got going but why respond to something you 'completely agree with' and instead of anything specific you instead jump into the race trash heap. You're on a roll as of late.

I completely agree with you and I completely agree with Gandalf and I completely agree that white warmongers made the United States into the military-industrial satanic complex. That is really the truth you know.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Don't blame the French, they fled having lost 100, 000 men and you should have taken note. No, it was a war of your own choosing and on the way carried out genocide for a bunch of crooks in the south. 2 million dead people for what Walrus? Wanting their own nation state and having it run on their own terms? Isn't that what you wanted against the British?

I understand you are a patriotic kind of guy, but that was a needless war like most of them are. What business did Americans have in the jungles of Vietnam? Muhammad Ali was right when he said his enemy was right at home and not in Vietnam. That was a war against the interests of the American people. Did Trump go there? Did Bush? Did Clinton? No, it was the ordinary guy and they were defending a tyrannical South Vietnam in the interests of an elite that knew it was hopeless.

You sound a bit like the 'Let's nuke Japan chaps' with your evaluation of decades of carpet bombing. 'Just a few more days'.....2 million dead, Walrus. Every one of them with friends and family like yourself. Would you be happy were a foreign power carpet bombed your country? No, of course not. Sometimes you are wrong and that was a prime example. Even today people are dying of cancer because of the chemical weapons that were used. That's a cruel, cruel fate.

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i said nothing for or against Vietnam, I just stated facts I know from what I read, don’t put words in my mouth I think it was an unnecessary war. When did I ever say nuke japan. You are talking about shit that happened long before I was born. Damn miles I’m surprised at u

And miles u always bring up Nagasaki and Hiroshima which were indeed terrible but do you realize the firebombing of Germany which England participated in killed far more innocent humans? Carpet bombing with incendiary bombs of entire cities. What a horrible thought. They weren’t all Nazis.

#triggered

You wanna see warlike people check this shit out

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...olving_Armenia

Looks like they always want to kill. Thank god we don’t have any of them here

Tito, my post was a measured and considered one. The US elite themselves knew the war was pointless and Johnson didn't want to lose face so he EXPANDED the genocide of freedom fighters and sacrificed more innocent American people. It was something that should have been learned from. But no war after war after to just waste money and let the Taliban return meanwhile Bin Laden is allegedly in Pakistan. Allegedly.

My stance is not biased. I apply the same to the indiscriminate killing of civilians in any war. Using nukes to 'teach the Russians' was deprorable. It was a gross experiment. Can you imagine what that is like? You are lucky to be vaporised. Those not covered in burns, vomiting white gunk, dying of cancers. No, it is degenerate and cowardly.

You might have noticed a pattern but I oppose all of these wars. Brock is right on that point. Anyone now signing up has no excuse of naivety. Viernam was a monstrosity. Rolling Heavy Thunder was described as one of the most self defeating strategies of all time. It also broke America economically. After Vietnam completely abandoning dollar and gold. Now all these years later 20 trillion in debt and the solution is to 'build airplanes' and 'build more nukes'.

Miles, you also seem to forget the holocaust Japan committed against China and about every other country of the time

No double standards. Japan had an evil empire like the Nazis, but that does not excuse killing hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT people with nuclear bombs. That makes you akin to the Nazis. Find your Catholic heart and see what those people went through whilst going to work and walking to school. How would you feel? You would be dead.

The real abandonment by the U.S in Vietnam wasn't economic it was that of the South Vietnamese forces after public support collapsed. Same as rallying the Kurds only to walk away.

South Vietnam was a series of MANY dictatorships opposed by the general public. The support of that only made tge Viet Cong grow and grow. If the US had got out in 1965 Vietnam would have united, had its elections and yes Ho Chi Minh would have won and could have been the end of it. But alas, no. 'Gotta fight those Commies'. To an American any move for Independence is 'Commie' and seemingly worth the death of millions along the way. What are you even doing there? Utter tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Tito, my post was a measured and considered one. The US elite themselves knew the war was pointless and Johnson didn't want to lose face so he EXPANDED the genocide of freedom fighters and sacrificed more innocent American people. It was something that should have been learned from. But no war after war after to just waste money and let the Taliban return meanwhile Bin Laden is allegedly in Pakistan. Allegedly.

My stance is not biased. I apply the same to the indiscriminate killing of civilians in any war. Using nukes to 'teach the Russians' was deprorable. It was a gross experiment. Can you imagine what that is like? You are lucky to be vaporised. Those not covered in burns, vomiting white gunk, dying of cancers. No, it is degenerate and cowardly.

You might have noticed a pattern but I oppose all of these wars. Brock is right on that point. Anyone now signing up has no excuse of naivety. Viernam was a monstrosity. Rolling Heavy Thunder was described as one of the most self defeating strategies of all time. It also broke America economically. After Vietnam completely abandoning dollar and gold. Now all these years later 20 trillion in debt and the solution is to 'build airplanes' and 'build more nukes'.

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Who's in a "tizzy" now? :rolleyes:

My post wasn't even directed at you and merely made the distinction between hating wars, and hating those young boys who get/got drafted to go over and fight in Vietnam. You seem to have gone off on some tangent rant, to the point of declaring your point unbiased. WTF? What exactly did you read in my post that made it necessary to defend yourself?

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Tito, my post was a measured and considered one. The US elite themselves knew the war was pointless and Johnson didn't want to lose face so he EXPANDED the genocide of freedom fighters and sacrificed more innocent American people. It was something that should have been learned from. But no war after war after to just waste money and let the Taliban return meanwhile Bin Laden is allegedly in Pakistan. Allegedly.

My stance is not biased. I apply the same to the indiscriminate killing of civilians in any war. Using nukes to 'teach the Russians' was deprorable. It was a gross experiment. Can you imagine what that is like? You are lucky to be vaporised. Those not covered in burns, vomiting white gunk, dying of cancers. No, it is degenerate and cowardly.

You might have noticed a pattern but I oppose all of these wars. Brock is right on that point. Anyone now signing up has no excuse of naivety. Viernam was a monstrosity. Rolling Heavy Thunder was described as one of the most self defeating strategies of all time. It also broke America economically. After Vietnam completely abandoning dollar and gold. Now all these years later 20 trillion in debt and the solution is to 'build airplanes' and 'build more nukes'.

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Who's in a "tizzy" now? :rolleyes:

My post wasn't even directed at you and merely made the distinction between hating wars, and hating those young boys who get/got drafted to go over and fight in Vietnam. You seem to have gone off on some tangent rant, to the point of declaring your point unbiased. WTF? What exactly did you read in my post that made it necessary to defend yourself?

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Not in a tizzy at all, but making a series of observations and points backed up by the historical record. Is there anything you disagree with?

Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.

Ah, it is a misunderstanding. You probably see my entire post as calling you out, but only the first part was that. The rest was other things in the thread such as what I saw from Walrus. Don't take it so personally Tito, I agree with some of your post.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

South Vietnam was a series of MANY dictatorships opposed by the general public. The support of that only made tge Viet Cong grow and grow. If the US had got out in 1965 Vietnam would have united, had its elections and yes Ho Chi Minh would have won and could have been the end of it. But alas, no. 'Gotta fight those Commies'. To an American any move for Independence is 'Commie' and seemingly worth the death of millions along the way. What are you even doing there? Utter tragedy.

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Opening fire on Buddhist Monks didn't help. The deadline for North and South elections had come and gone. It really wasn't about fearing Communism in the North with small scale attacks on U.S backed rotating Governments. We've sat back and watched small blips on a Globe tear themselves apart and hardly missed sleep. Shit we even did it to ourselves. It was about the Chinese and Soviet backing for the resistance that began a decade prior to the Viet Cong coming along. In some ways it felt like WW2 never actually ended and once they tested their own nukes it was on. To not have lived it or in the time when kids practiced for Nuclear detonation in Anytown U.S.A limits judgment. Crazy thing is Ho Chi minh declared Independence just weeks after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Vietnam was fucked up but innocents on all sides paid the ultimate price. It hits home very close. Children being the constant and most confounding.

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Originally Posted by walrus

Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.

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I know and Donald Trump needs to calm down with that Twitter. Fighters fighting fighters is totally cool. Killing innocent people is not. In Japan you crossed the line. In Vietnam you chaps lost the plot. Surely you can see that. In Vietnam the Japanese were kicked out and Ho Chi Minh requested his independence. Totally snubbed. The Nazi's had to be beaten, as did the Japanese, but like I say you don't carry out genocide to prove a political point. That is known as evil too.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by walrus

Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.

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I know and Donald Trump needs to calm down with that Twitter. Fighters fighting fighters is totally cool. Killing innocent people is not. In Japan you crossed the line. In Vietnam you chaps lost the plot. Surely you can see that. In Vietnam the Japanese were kicked out and Ho Chi Minh requested his independence. Totally snubbed. The Nazi's had to be beaten, as did the Japanese, but like I say you don't carry out genocide to prove a political point. That is known as evil too.

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That’s all the Nazis and Japan did was genocide

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by walrus

Miles all you look at was a bomb dropped on Japan and how the people felt. How did the victims of Nanking feel. How about the victims of every country Japan occupied since the 30’s. How about Pearl Harbor, remember the US was neutral until the Japanese attacked. Others here were calling for the nukes to be dropped on North Korea. One crazy warmongering white guy.

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I know and Donald Trump needs to calm down with that Twitter. Fighters fighting fighters is totally cool. Killing innocent people is not. In Japan you crossed the line. In Vietnam you chaps lost the plot. Surely you can see that. In Vietnam the Japanese were kicked out and Ho Chi Minh requested his independence. Totally snubbed. The Nazi's had to be beaten, as did the Japanese, but like I say you don't carry out genocide to prove a political point. That is known as evil too.

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That’s all the Nazis and Japan did was genocide

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That does not make it okay for you to do the same. You lead by example, not terror. In Vietnam all that needed to happen was for elections to take place as soon as possible. It was agreed by all that 2 years would be enough. Minh would likely have dominated and that's all she wrote in Vietnam. American involvement by pretty much all accounts made everything worse. Even US troops were saying things like 'We don't know why we are here'. France said stop. The UK said stop. Johnson would not listen. His ego had taken over. He was sacrificing children on the other side of the world for no better reason than to fight the 'bogeyman'. Would he go and fight? Would Trump? Would Bush? Would Clinton? No, they would sooner send working class and white and black kids. People who have no voice.

Anyways, I am not holding you personally responsible or anything Walrus, just expressing my opinion based on my own research and readings. I just think it was a very bad situation and I am sure you understand my position. Vietnam today remains a market based Communist country. Nothing was gained or achieved by any of it. I think the same way about Afghanistan where the Taliban refuses to go away. I think the same about Iraq which was based on lies and failed to consider just how divided a country Iraq was already. It just did not need to happen. There was no reason it could not have been managed peacefully. There were no WMD. This does not look good and I am sure like with the chaps in Vietnam you end up questioning 'What is this for?' and more so when the truth finally comes out like The Gulf of Tonkin, or no WMD, or what have you.

Not my argument, but I don't think walrus is defending Vietnam, nor has anyone on this thread as far as I can tell. Personally I think it was a huge waste of time, resources, and human lives. It's the soldiers that went over there I mostly feel sorry for. Most of them were drafted, and were teenagers or just past teenage stage. The party line on the war was to keep Communism from spreading to South Vietnam. Flimsy excuse... the U.S. should've left well enough alone. One of those wars that stick out as not having a legitimate purpose. It also dragged and dragged and dragged. Finally the U.S. ended up withdrawing and you're right..... nothing was gained. A lot of deaths for nothing.

Your real point of contention is with the nukes dropped in Japan. I see both your points on that one, but if pushed I would probably side with Miles. The argument that a conventional war would've been drawn out and bloody is a good argument, but still fails to fully consider all possible scenarios. And why Japan and not Germany? 'Cause Germany is surrounded by other European countries? That would be a weak argument. Why didn't the U.S. just fly over and drop a big Fat Man on Germany to make the Nazis surrender quicker and avoid more life losses? I don't know...... the whole Atomic Bomb thing is just a bit much for me. Two entire cities incinerated. I think the U.S. was capable of a huge push against Japan that would've eventually defeated them. At the very least, why was Nagasaki bombed? I've read up on it and seen a lot of BS answers, but none of them seem to justify that second act of carnage. Don't get me wrong, I know the U.S. had to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. I just have to ask whether it was really necessary to obliterate two cities.

No, no, that is not Miles" "real point of contention" .... It's as clear as day what his point is. America fucking blew it enormously with it's tough guy/crossing the line/losing the plot EVIL SHIT on so many levels and fronts over the past 70 years it's GUARANTEED BAD KARMA which even an imbecile can see is happening to America now since 2001.