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Lennox Lewis - The gloss
The Oliver McCall thread got me thinking about this, or refreshed it in my mind. But how much of a career pass does Lewis get for the McCall and Rahman fights.
Lewis is a better fighter than both, lets get that straight, but he's 1-1 with both men, the return with McCall he won, but he didn't beat him. McCall and Rahman both get glossed over when talking about Lewis's record 'defeated every man he's ever faced'. The truth of it is he never actually established superiority over either in the ring.
Lewis is a great fighter no doubting that and this thread isn't an effort to knock that. But I do think it's a very grey area and Lewis is the beneficiary of some rose tinted examination.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Lennox won every round in the rematch against Rahman, and scored a brutal KO in the 4th. What do you mean he never established superiority?
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tid=4589&stc=1
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.
McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.
Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I do think people forget the criticism Lewis faced while he was actually active. People said he was a magnificent athlete but not a natural fighter, they said his technique was flawed (and it was), they said he was boring in the ring, they said he didn't take risks and avoided dangerous guys, they said he was gun shy and chinny
There has definitely been some post career revisionism about Lewis, as he is now seen as an all time great and a destroyer.
As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere in between!
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
No doubting that, but he got pretty brutally knocked out himself in the first fight. Therefor they're one a piece. There was no real conclusion to Lewis V Rahman only that Lewis won the second fight and from there the consensus was/is that was the proper result. It's a bit unfair on Rahman I think and I cant stand the cunt.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.
McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.
Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.
This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.
McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I've not watched for a few years so will watch tonight and come back but I remember thinking the ref should have maybe given Lewis the chance to continue. He was on shakey legs but boxers in worse condition have been allowed to continue!
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Memphis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.
McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.
Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.
This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.
McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.
I think the narrative for Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman the first time was that he was not taking the fight seriously, was filming Oceans 11 and the altitude was a factor. Lewis was gulping for air during the first fight. Lennox won many of the rounds before being knocked out. So when the result of the rematch happened it validated all those things. There was no need for a 3rd fight which I know Rahman was begging for. Lennox also knew he was nearing the end of his career and wanted the "big money fights".
You can not blame Lewis for McCall, he won and there was nothing more he could do about that fight. It may not have been satisfactory for Lewis but that was not Lennox fault.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Memphis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.
McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.
Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.
This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.
McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.
I think the narrative for Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman the first time was that he was not taking the fight seriously, was filming Oceans 11 and the altitude was a factor. Lewis was gulping for air during the first fight. Lennox won many of the rounds before being knocked out. So when the result of the rematch happened it validated all those things. There was no need for a 3rd fight which I know Rahman was begging for. Lennox also knew he was nearing the end of his career and wanted the "big money fights".
You can not blame Lewis for McCall, he won and there was nothing more he could do about that fight. It may not have been satisfactory for Lewis but that was not Lennox fault.
I'm not blaming him for anything Master, I'm not trying to do him down in any way shape or form. It's just a subject I find quite interesting especially now that we have a leading pack of heavyweights in AJ Wilder and Fury, and every Tom Dick or Harry cant help but compare them to the last great pack of heavyweights and of course, they wouldn't stand a chance. As you can imagine I think that's bollocks.
The narrative for Rahman 1 could be rounded up nicely into a 'Lewis was completely unprofessional' ball. I think he turned up with a few days to spare didn't he to acclimatise? By the same logic that says Lewis can't be held responsible for McCall's unravelling in fight 2, Rahman isn't to blame for Lewis not giving the fight the attention it deserved. Also by the same token, if we're all supposed to tow the party line that Lewis meant business in fight two and that's the true fight right there, then surely the same luxury should be afforded to McCall and the one true fight that stands is the one i which he knocked Lewis the fuck out.
Lewis is a universally recognised great fighter and nailed on top 5/10 heavyweight of all times. I just think there are some issues in his career that are papered over with two identical statements that aren't necessarily accurate and certainly not fair to the other fighters. Given that he is now a yardstick by which to measure contemporary fighters, I think it's worth noting and discussing his shortcomings.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I do think that Lennox Lewis would have not delayed fighting Wilder, if he was in AJ's shoes, and unified the titles.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Lewis was filming his cameo Oceans 11 in Vegas when he should have been over in South Africa (at very high altitude) acclimatising and training.
Rahman did do that with no interruptions and it showed on the night.
Lewis was 100% effected and looked fucked after a few rounds.
No one thought Lewis would lose which is why no Casinos in Vegas bothered to even try and host it.
Massively over confident was the reason he lost.
Rahman was dealt with easily when the real Lennox showed up.
McCall is a different story and id have had that second fight as a pick em if McCall didn't have a mental breakdown.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I remember Hagler was doing the co commentary for Rahman I (can't have been Sky ??) and said as early as the second round that Lewis' mouth was open and that was a bad sign.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
I was going to post this too. That looks like establishing superiority to me. In the first fight with Rahman Lewis was blowing out of his arse after a couple of rounds. He hadn't taken it seriously and was caught out. McCall you can make a better case for. If he'd lived the life and not been taking whatever substances he would have been a formidable opponent in the rematch but Lewis trained by Manny Steward using his height and reach against the best possible McCall would have resulted in a boring Lewis points win.
You can criticise Lewis over his career for being boring and safety first but this is a guy who knew for almost every fight he had at world level that a. he could be knocked the fuck out and b. if he used his height/reach/feet to the best of his ability then he had the beating of anybody he got in the ring with so it's entirely understandable that he did what he did.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Memphis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Memphis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Rahman was beaten convincingly, no doubt there.
McCall went crazy/mental ill/nervous breakdown/withdrawal from drugs during his fight but still think Lewis owned him in the rematch.
Lennox should never have lost to these fighters but his trainer pepe was poor when he lost to Oliver and Manny Steward (who was in McCall's corner) sorted Lennox out.
This kind of rubber stamps what I'm saying. There're no doubt over the Rahman fight because Lewis won it convincingly. Yet he was chinned pretty convincingly the first time around, a fair draw if ever there was one. We just decide for ourselves that the second fight was the one that really mattered and counts.
McCall 2, I don't think you can say anything other than he won by default didn't he? If the second Rahman fight was the 'real' Lewis. Surely the first Lewis V McCall fight was a better indication of the 'real' Oliver McCall in which he won by convincing stoppage.
I think the narrative for Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman the first time was that he was not taking the fight seriously, was filming Oceans 11 and the altitude was a factor. Lewis was gulping for air during the first fight. Lennox won many of the rounds before being knocked out. So when the result of the rematch happened it validated all those things. There was no need for a 3rd fight which I know Rahman was begging for. Lennox also knew he was nearing the end of his career and wanted the "big money fights".
You can not blame Lewis for McCall, he won and there was nothing more he could do about that fight. It may not have been satisfactory for Lewis but that was not Lennox fault.
I'm not blaming him for anything Master, I'm not trying to do him down in any way shape or form. It's just a subject I find quite interesting especially now that we have a leading pack of heavyweights in AJ Wilder and Fury, and every Tom Dick or Harry cant help but compare them to the last great pack of heavyweights and of course, they wouldn't stand a chance. As you can imagine I think that's bollocks.
The narrative for Rahman 1 could be rounded up nicely into a 'Lewis was completely unprofessional' ball. I think he turned up with a few days to spare didn't he to acclimatise? By the same logic that says Lewis can't be held responsible for McCall's unravelling in fight 2, Rahman isn't to blame for Lewis not giving the fight the attention it deserved. Also by the same token, if we're all supposed to tow the party line that Lewis meant business in fight two and that's the true fight right there, then surely the same luxury should be afforded to McCall and the one true fight that stands is the one i which he knocked Lewis the fuck out.
Lewis is a universally recognised great fighter and nailed on top 5/10 heavyweight of all times. I just think there are some issues in his career that are papered over with two identical statements that aren't necessarily accurate and certainly not fair to the other fighters. Given that he is now a yardstick by which to measure contemporary fighters, I think it's worth noting and discussing his shortcomings.
I feel like Lewis beat them much more decisively in the rematches. Can you tell me rahman, did to Lewis what Lewis did to him in the second fight? That was a completely outclassed fighter. McCall I was ended too soon, and it wasn’t like either of them had really established an advantage over each other in the first round. They were still in the early stages of figuring each other out.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I dunno, tons of intangibles and occurrences go into things like McCall falling off the ledge that night. What we know is he was under tons of pressure with the King title challenger last minute shuffle, was at highest weight, had already lost his title and acclaim in the exact same arena where he won it and more importantly had been throwing a balling ball size wad of coke up his nose. He sort of sabotaged his chance to 'to be in top form' like the 1st fight and that's completely on him. And I don't believe in lucky punches but..his eyes were closed ;D. The best thing that happened to Lewis was the 1st being waved off and leaving him the "it was stopped early" argument. The condition he was in McCall was going to make the ko even more embarrassing than just one & done shot. Lewis got caught simple as that. Happens to the best but he surely showed that he can deal with better punches and leave the two 1 punch kos he suffered with asterisks next to them, and besides..they're always mentioned when he is. Always ;D
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
From a Brit perspective I would say that Lewis was our best 20th century heavyweight, end of.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
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Originally Posted by
nuggetdotcom
From a Brit perspective I would say that Lewis was our best 20th century heavyweight, end of.
Oh yes, definitely (though it could be argued that he was produced as a fighter in Canada rather than Britain)
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Memphis
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
No doubting that, but he got pretty brutally knocked out himself in the first fight. Therefor they're one a piece. There was no real conclusion to Lewis V Rahman only that Lewis won the second fight and from there the consensus was/is that was the
proper result. It's a bit unfair on Rahman I think and I cant stand the cunt.
Caught off guard..... didn't train properly..... unmotivated.... lazy..... all of those have been used to describe Lewis' effort against Rahman.
Going into the rematch, Rahman could not claim the same (being caught off guard). If anything, they were both totally motivated by the grudge that developed between the two fights.
So saying it's 1-1 and leaving it at that is what REALLY defines glossing it over for me. All things considered, I'd rather be Lewis.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I don't blame Lewis for swerving a rubber match with McCall, I was terrified for him after watching that mental Avenger get blasted with flush right hands, basically sucker punches, which had zero effect. Lewis did well to not jump through the ropes and leg it.
And technically Rhaman is 2-1 over Lewis, he definitely got the better of him in the studio scuffle. Rock had him on his back, could have easily nutted or forearmed him unconcious if he wasn't dragged off.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Lewis fought arrogant and with no respect for either rahman or McCall. That is why he lost those fights.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Looking back given the sort of professional Lewis was it's still hard to comprehend why he was so ill prepared for Rahman.
Disrespectful to us all.
Frank is our true champ !
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
I don't disagree with any of the responses to be honest, like I said Lewis was a better fighter than both Rahman and McCall, no doubting that. He proved it over course and distance with better wins against better fighters. In terms of establishing superiority I was speaking purely numerically. On paper they are one win each, with Lewis by consensus winning the one that counted most.
The responses support the narrative that Lewis won the fights that mattered and although the losses are acknowledged, we can essentially sweep what went before under the carpet. That may well have been the case but as I mentioned before it's a little unfair on Rahman and McCall to reduce their efforts in fight one to a blip on Lewis's part, whether that be poor game plan, preparation, attitude. The fights were won or lost based on what Lennox Lewis did or didn't do rather than anything Rahman or McCall did. For me that's a bit naughty.
Looking back yeah maybe McCall is the better example of a grey area. They had one actual fight and McCall won it spectacularly. His mental state in fight two robbed him of his opportunity to repeat what went before, but in fairness it also robbed Lewis of the opportunity to properly right any wrongs.
Yep mental really that someone could be so ill prepared. A fighter of Lewis's calibre with his intelligence and support system around him.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Funny article today with Lewis warning Wilder to not let acting make him take his eye of his day job. Difference being that Lewis was of course very good at his day job :-X
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwgdhJAVYAATB_I.jpg
Wilder recently took to social media and unveiled his upcoming plans to try his hand at acting.
“God has blessed me to be able to do something else that I’m very passionate about and that’s acting.
“#2019 big things poppin. Just wait until you see the champ in Lights, Camera, Action. #BombZquad”
And Lewis was quick to respond to the undefeated champion with a light-hearted word of warning:
“Be careful there. That acting thing doesn’t always work out for heavyweight champs. Trust me. I know!”
https://www.givemesport.com/1440558-...t?autoplay=off
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tid=4594&stc=1
Kind of reminds you of another KO by an ATG...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Coincidentally I am on the chapter where McCall lost to Lewis and in the press conference he claims it was all a ploy to get Lennox to complacent again but the ref got in the way and stopped the fight. Oliver McCall was paid $3million for this fight and was demanding a rematch.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Coincidentally I am on the chapter where McCall lost to Lewis and in the press conference he claims it was all a ploy to get Lennox to complacent again but the ref got in the way and stopped the fight. Oliver McCall was paid $3million for this fight and was demanding a rematch.
LMAO! Well.... the ref (Mills, right?) gave Oliver more than ample time to quit bawling and fight. So if it was a ploy then Oliver dragged on a bit too much. ;D Also, Oliver still got paid?? I don't remember that part. I would've stripped him of his cut following that debacle.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Coincidentally I am on the chapter where McCall lost to Lewis and in the press conference he claims it was all a ploy to get Lennox to complacent again but the ref got in the way and stopped the fight. Oliver McCall was paid $3million for this fight and was demanding a rematch.
LMAO! Well.... the ref (Mills, right?) gave Oliver more than ample time to quit bawling and fight. So if it was a ploy then Oliver dragged on a bit too much. ;D Also, Oliver still got paid?? I don't remember that part. I would've stripped him of his cut following
that debacle.
Yes Oliver got paid as did Henry Akinwande.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Coincidentally I am on the chapter where McCall lost to Lewis and in the press conference he claims it was all a ploy to get Lennox to complacent again but the ref got in the way and stopped the fight. Oliver McCall was paid $3million for this fight and was demanding a rematch.
LMAO! Well.... the ref (Mills, right?) gave Oliver more than ample time to quit bawling and fight. So if it was a ploy then Oliver dragged on a bit too much. ;D Also, Oliver still got paid?? I don't remember that part. I would've stripped him of his cut following
that debacle.
Yes Oliver got paid as did Henry Akinwande.
For the Lewis-McCall fight??!??
(just kidding)
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights." - Muhammad Ali
We always see these type of phrases that allude to the fight being won in the gym. Its partially true. There are kids that look great in the gym and the freeze up when it's showtime, too. So i believe at least part of it is won in the gym. That being said, Lennox was responsible for being ill prepared and getting his clocked leaned by Rahman. It's a loss. Did he win the rematch, sure by KO...but I do see what Memphis means by it getting glossed over. Would Rahman get beat in a rubber match? Probably... Rahman was a fighter that always knew when he had enough and then his shine was gone. It doesn't mean lightning couldn't have struck twice nor does it erase the sight of a bloated Lennox flashing a cheesy grin a second before getting obliterated by that ugly right hand. His dreads did him a favor and kept his head from bouncing off that mat. Otherwise i don't think he would have gotten to his feet without assistance.
As for McCall.. Lewis got caught. McCall knew what he was doing when he threw that combo. As for the rematch, McCall is responsible for that loss for whatever he was trying to do. Lennox gets credit for frustrating him and you have to admit that Lennox gets up for revenge matches and preps well and is motivated... probably better than most... or one knockout doesn't really negate another. One might even argue that a rematch win or knockout might not even have the effect it does if the first fights loss wasn't casting doubt or suspense on the rematch.
Records, knockout losses, subpar preparation aside. Lewis was probably one of the more complete heavies in recent memory. Not ferocious by nature but knew when he could have an easy night by jumping on someone early. Fought quite a few names and didn't mentally come apart. I wasn't a fan before because I thought he could have been more aggressive many times when it seemed like he was playing with his food. But he always got flak for playing chess instead of checkers.
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Re: Lennox Lewis - The gloss
Did Lennox Lewis duck anyone?
Did Holyfield haggle terms until eventually fighting him? (Holyfields statemtn after the Bowe fight Re: Lewis was revealing,no?)
Did Tysons team (just after prison)pay step aside money to Lewis?
Was Lewis last fight competitive against a top tier heavyweight?
Why didnt Lewis vs Bowe not happen? Does it even matter?
Apart from Bowe, was there any other significant heavyweights Lewis did not face?
Even Ali said Lewis was the greatest. Does that statement have value.
For me, Lewis fought many skillful heavyweights with heart who are much better than most of the current crop, apart from Fury and Joshua. (Wlad excluded as we dont know if hes in or out yet)
Was never a Lewis fan, but he has grown on me a little since. His alloofness and at times safety first chess match in the ring was a turn off, but he changed that when necessary against Ruddock, Golota and Michael Grant, all of them considered in different ways to be dangerous. Golota at the time was quality heavyweight package, who as it turned out had a screw loose under pressure, but thats not a crime.
