AJ didn't quit, he was waiting for the ref to replace his gum-shield. Fact.

Is anyone surprised that nobody in his team brought up the gum-shield? He clearly spit it out and the ref clearly picked it up. He was clearly shocked when the ref waved it off, he immediately looked at his corner saying "what the fuck!"

Buster Ruiz duffed him up good and proper, good for him, and AJ didn't make an excuse, good for him, but surely his team should have mentioned it. The state AJ was in was hardly different to the Wlad fight, which he came back from after looking exhausted.

There's gonna be loads of stories come out , some true , some not. Without making any excuses for him , because he was beat fair and square, I think he got mildly concussed in the 3rd round and didn't know where he was and couldn't recover. it looked like he had a couple of shots hit him on the top of the head, and while they didn't look as damaging as the shots he got hit by Wlad with , they obviously had more of an effect.
But even before he went down in the 3rd, it was looking like an awkward night for him and he wasn't sure how to cope with Ruiz's style.
And this is more important to me than the TKO, it's the adjustments he is capable of making for the rematch so that he can control the fight.
I think this is where we find out a lot about AJ AND his Trainer Rob McCracken.

For sure he was fucked from the start, he kept saying to McCraken should I push him back now, should I push him back now. All the talk about him being "stiff" and having no "stamina, " and being "Frank Bruno" is the exact same since he turned pro.

Joshua of a couple of years ago would have blasted Ruiz out in 2 rounds.

I thought he did quit, he didn't exactly go apeshit at the ref when waved it off did he.
He said WTF once and that was it which isn't the reaction of a man who wanted to continue the fight.

Shit stoppage, IMHO. But the ref must have seen something or heard something he did not like from AJ. :rolleyes:

I think we're being too harsh on AJ, as well as going overboard with the word "quit."

Should AJ have shoved the ref to the ground in obvious anger after the "wave-off"? AJ was clearly buzzed. He was leaning back into the corner, but looking at the ref. It's the ref's job to decide whether the fighter is apt to continue. Quitting, IMO, would've been if AJ had shaken his head no.... or voiced as much to the ref.

It was a strange one given that he was upright in good time, responding to the referees instructions. You'd think he'd give him every opportunity to continue and decided that was the time to call it. There we're no histrionics from AJ or his team, a token protest from AJ himself but that was it. They knew he was toast so the ref you would have to say did a good job. He wasn't getting back into that.

They seemed to speak quite a bit in the corner before the ref waved it off.

Agreed AJ didn't seem too fussed it was waved off or put up any protest and we've seen many boxers kick off when they want to continue.

See Lewis v McCall and Frank Maloney (now penisless) having a go afterwards

It was a weird stoppage but not a terrible one. The ref told him to walk forward multiple times and AJ just stood there.

As many fighters have said “when you start looking to your corner you’re asking out, all fighters know this” add that the ref repeatedly asked him to step forward and he didn’t means good stoppage. How long had it been, 20 seconds? I’ll go count and edit this

Edit-24 seconds before he waved it off, that’s a long time

It was a strange one. My initial position was that it was an early stoppage as Joshua was having a nightmare but he didn't seem 'hurt'. I mean obviously he must have been to keep going down, but he certainly didn't get Fury'ed or anything like that. I assumed Joshua was being given extra time as he was the money man and he wasn't wobbling about or doing anything strange. He seemed to have his senses, though by walking backwards, hands down, eating punches in the 6th, maybe he didn't. But yes, he had a massive amount of time and seemed to show no desire to continue. You would never see James Toney acting like that. He would just shake his head, sneer, hold his hands up, and get back on with it. Joshua might have his Gold medal, but he wasn't born to fight like a Toney or a Calzaghe. Those guys took the punches and if they went down then straight back on with it.

Joshua did step forward when asked and removed his hands from the ropes, he then stepped back. All the while the ref is holding his gum-shield in his left hand whilst counting with his right. Joshua isn't unresponsive, he's shocked at it being waved off.

I'm not disputing the refs decision, merely stating Joshua acted like a fighter expecting his gum-shield to be replaced after he'd obeyed the refs command.

There's literally dozens and dozens of other refs who would have put the gum-shield back in his mouth or handed it to the corner to rinse let alone took hold of his gloves when he stepped forward. Wiped them.

Does anyone seriously think Jack Reiss or Steve Smoger or Micky Vann or Kenny Bayless or Steve Willis would have acted the same way?

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Joshua did step forward when asked and removed his hands from the ropes, he then stepped back. All the while the ref is holding his gum-shield in his left hand whilst counting with his right. Joshua isn't unresponsive, he's shocked at it being waved off.

I'm not disputing the refs decision, merely stating Joshua acted like a fighter expecting his gum-shield to be replaced after he'd obeyed the refs command.

There's literally dozens and dozens of other refs who would have put the gum-shield back in his mouth or handed it to the corner to rinse let alone took hold of his gloves when he stepped forward. Wiped them.

Does anyone seriously think Jack Reiss or Steve Smoger or Micky Vann or Kenny Bayless or Steve Willis would have acted the same way?

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I agree that he didn't quit, but I think the ref (who lets not forget is a foot away from the fighter.) made a good stoppage. maybe he should've given the gum shield to the corner to rinse and put back in, but maybe he didn't bother because he knew it was over.
at the end of the day, this is all periphery. Even Eddie admitted, the fight was done.

Food for thought here:

First as I've already stated, I don't believe Joshua "quit". Was he raring to go when he got up? No. He was still buzzed and the ref ultimately did the right thing. But the word "quit" is thrown around too loosely in boxing.

Also, I've seen that the majority on here have stated their own opinions as well, that Joshua didn't quit.

Howeverrrrrrrr.............

Had the exact same thing happened to Wilder instead..... would we have the same people saying the same things? :D ;) ;) :cool:

He was a beaten man. I think it was a case of just howmuch do you want to see the man beaten. Ref did a good job and stopped it. All we can all do is imagine what would have happened if he put the mouth peice back in and let them continue. Maybe he would have shook it off and got back in to the fight. Or maybe beaten to a pulp and exited the ring like David Price.

Regardless of what happened i will take the positives. Its great to see an upset of this caliber. And lets face it AJ is gonna come back with a bit of fire in his belly and take them belts back. Its all good for HW boxing, it has ruffled the feathers of the division. It will prompt fights that where hesitant and stale to happen. I love a good upset regardless of who it is.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

As many fighters have said “when you start looking to your corner you’re asking out, all fighters know this” add that the ref repeatedly asked him to step forward and he didn’t means good stoppage. How long had it been, 20 seconds? I’ll go count and edit this

Edit-24 seconds before he waved it off, that’s a long time

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Many fighters have said that's nonsense too. One fighter looks at his corner for help another to signal they're fine.

It's utterly irrelevant counting seconds, boxing history is littered with "long counts," and the refs judgment influence the outcome every week.

Not sure if you're old enough to remember this epic, but Corrales has at least double the time Joshua has here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0vSpewcMx4

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

As many fighters have said “when you start looking to your corner you’re asking out, all fighters know this” add that the ref repeatedly asked him to step forward and he didn’t means good stoppage. How long had it been, 20 seconds? I’ll go count and edit this

Edit-24 seconds before he waved it off, that’s a long time

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Many fighters have said that's nonsense too. One fighter looks at his corner for help another to signal they're fine.

It's utterly irrelevant counting seconds, boxing history is littered with "long counts," and the refs judgment influence the outcome every week.

Not sure if you're old enough to remember this epic, but Corrales has at least double the time Joshua has here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0vSpewcMx4

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Yes, historically many fights have been messed up including your linked fight. You are supposed to be ready to fight after 10 seconds, not just off the mat. 24 seconds had passed and Joshua hadn’t proven to the 3rd man he was ready to fight. You know as well as anyone Joshua wanted out of that fight, whether he “quit” is up to interpretation. But what is clear is he wanted out. I’m in no way insulting the man, I’m just not going to say “he’s my countryman so I will excuse everything, he was simply waiting on the gum shield” because he wasn’t. How many people have said he seemed relieved afterwards including his own promoter? Why on earth would his own promoter say he was relieved if he was simply waiting on his gumshield? Answer is he wouldn’t be relieved, he would be upset because he would feel he had his titles stolen. Joshua doesn’t feel he had his titles stolen because he knows like I know and you know if you will look past biases that Joshua was done. The fight was over. Someone just needed to make it official. He looked for his corner to end it, they didn’t so he made sure the ref ended it by not giving the ref the indications he wanted to continue. Some call that quitting, the terminology is really irrelevant though. Joshua knows, Hearn knows, I know he wanted out of the fight. If you don’t know that you are just oblivious. I don’t think you are oblivious.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

“he’s my countryman so I will excuse everything, he was simply waiting on the gum shield”

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I haven't made a single excuse for his loss, you're the guy spinning the narrative when I haven't disputed the ref's decision or AJ's defeat? Why would you possibly need to count seconds?

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

He looked for his corner to end it, they didn’t so he made sure the ref ended it by not giving the ref the indications he wanted to continue.

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When the ref waved it off AJ wasn't looking at his corner he was staring directly at the ref following his directions. However, if it makes you feel better to believe he dogged it, fine. I was merely asking if anyone else wondered why the ref didn't replace the gum-shield? Many official reports don't even mention the shield coming out? One claimed the ref didn't pick it up when he clearly did.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

Joshua doesn’t feel he had his titles stolen because he knows like I know and you know if you will look past biases that Joshua was done. The fight was over. Someone just needed to make it official.

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I have never once disputed that.

The ref is supposed to put the mouthpiece in when there it's a lull and that was a lull.

Did the ref have the piece in his hands or the corner?

I remember a few fights where a fighter was knocked down, piece out and the ref didn't count, while placing the guard back in.

One that comes too memory was Moored vs Cooper. After Bert got dropped, ref finished counting, Bert motioned to his mouth to which the ref got it in, but only after the count and they threw a few punches.


Did AJ motion to it?

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Is anyone surprised that nobody in his team brought up the gum-shield? He clearly spit it out and the ref clearly picked it up. He was clearly shocked when the ref waved it off, he immediately looked at his corner saying "what the fuck!"

Buster Ruiz duffed him up good and proper, good for him, and AJ didn't make an excuse, good for him, but surely his team should have mentioned it. The state AJ was in was hardly different to the Wlad fight, which he came back from after looking exhausted.

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True - I don’t believe he quit the moment that Andy hit him and he started doing that Zab Judah dance. I mean sure even Katie Taylor took her beating like a man but I don’t believe AJ quit.

But a side note - Haymon and Finkle have played an absolute blinder.

They've built Wilder off the back of all the above, to be fair he's jumped in with the best he could in Ortiz and Fury and also provided more devastating highlight reel KOs in between. Now Hearns empire is looking shaky at best and AJ is clearly going through some stuff.

It isn't excuses but the delay with AJ in his locker room ? With no cameras allowed in ? The fact his usual team weren't even in there with him ? And then they joined him by the arena entrance ? His behaviour before during fight ? A man built like Phil Heath comes out in the 1st round on his toes dancing like Ali ? And then AJ after the fight. I mean he was almost relived and glad he lost. Maybe afterwards he watched Ruiz Jr fk his girlfriend and then his dad wanting to fight Eddie Hearn ?

Something serious was going on in that camp.

Money has a strange way of depleting many fighters from the essential vitamins and minerals! Go check the story of how Tyson was conducting himself in Japan before the Douglas fight! Sad and Hilarious! He said his room looked like a scene from "Caligula!" Said he was eating Japanese women like grapes! Lol! I don't know what Joshua was doing, but the rumors are swirling!

[QUOTE=Denilson-The-Comeback;1521086]

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I Go check the story of how Tyson was conducting himself in Japan before the Douglas fight! Sad and Hilarious! He said his room looked like a scene from "Caligula!" Said he was eating Japanese women like grapes! Lol! I don't know what Joshua was doing, but the rumors are swirling![/SIZE][/FONT]

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Ah, so he may haven broken the no stuff before fights rule!