Why does Wilder continue to get so much flak?

Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose. ;D

Some theories come to mind.

a) His lack of boxing skills.

Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

b) His early record of bums.

To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ;D ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... :rolleyes: That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.

Because he seems to be impervious. Some hated Mayweather too. But I do want to see more matchable fights- A fight with Dillian Whyte, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev or Jarrell Miller would be great for his rep and career.

But he beat Stiverne and Ortiz, so what else do you want from an "ok" champ?
;D

Point A for me, his lack of boxing skill, at times he boxes awfully and gets out of jail because of his freakish power. I can not take him seriously and Fury schooled him so it can be done.

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Originally Posted by ykdadamaja

Because he seems to be impervious. Some hated Mayweather too. But I do want to see more matchable fights- A fight with Dillian Whyte, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev or Jarrell Miller would be great for his rep and career.

But he beat Stiverne and Ortiz, so what else do you want from an "ok" champ?
;D

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This doesn’t make much sense. Pulev? Are we really supposed to believe fighting Pulev would change anyone’s opinion? Because that simply isn’t true.

Whyte? The guy that has been given 3 chances to earn the fight and refused the fight he was told to take to get Wilder 3 times? But Wilder twice fought the guy Whyte refused 3 times. Keep in mind Whyte had D-Bol(not his first time popping hot) and illegal gloves assisting him in his last fight(thanks UKAD)

Fury, he fought him. And he was set to fight him again until Fury ducked out, Fury felt so silly about it he lied about what he was getting to duck out.

Miller? What has Miller ever done? I mean other than popping dirty with everything in his system.

Wilder is cringe worthy every time he opens his mouth. But he fights men much larger than himself every time out and wins. I would actually like to be a hater because I like skilled boxers and he certainly is not. But he is regarded so unfairly I’m forced to defend the guy.

Consider this, making things equal by looking at percentages of total body weight. Wilder was at such a disadvantage in size vs Fury that the equivalent would be Inoue fighting a Jr Welterweight. That’s 20.8% bigger than Inoue, 139lbs. Or Lomachenko fight Super Middleweights at 163lbs. Or Crawford fighting Cruiserweights at 178lbs. These are the elite of the elite and we would never expect this of them. Heavyweight is different, yes. But SOME credit is due.

I will be as happy as anyone when his reign ends but at this point it will mostly be because then people won’t feel the need to be absurdly unfair to the guy. He is no Lennox Lewis, but he has reigned for 5 years and 11 fights. We should tip the cap, it’s more than anyone expected.

I have never had a problem with Wilder. He is what he is and I don’t really mind his personality. I may not be friends with him in real life, but I’m not annoyed by him like many others are.

I feel like people’s biggest knock on him is his lack of competition. As you pointed out though, you can’t really use that excuse anymore. We all know that he padded his record for his first 30 fights, but since then, he has actually fought at least decent competition (decent for HW standards).

Also, whenever you feel like someone is overrated, it’s a natural reaction to speak out. That’s why we talk a lot about Canelo. If Canelo weren’t given so much attention, most of us wouldn’t focus on him that much. Same goes with Wilder. If you think that Wilder isn’t really that good, then you are going to try and prove why he isn’t good.

All in all, Wilder has done what he has needed to do but is very beatable. With that said, I do think that he is the best HW right now and think that he will win the Fury rematch.

I don't hate the guy. But I do think he's a bit manufactured and gets by on the cheap. Basically his first 27'ish fights were against stunt men and dishwashers and in more than a few cases Lt heavyweights a couple ex middleweights and a few off massive layoffs..talking 4 to 8 years. Go dig through his early record and watch them. Not exactly a picture of "the biggest puncher in boxing history" as he's spouting off about today. The idea that the right hand is all he needs is exactly what's wrong with so many young fighters, and it's not all he needs as evident in the Fury loss I mean 'draw' :-X. And I can't buy this he's still learning thing. Sure you can always add some polish but the man is what 35? He is what he is and as much as his eraser right hand carries forward so do the flaws which are a glaring part of his package now. By manufactured a bit I mean that with the exception of Ortiz 1..they've all resulted near exactly as expected going in. His last two years has been facing 3 late replacements in title fights..2 of which were nothing more than to repackage the whole huuuuuge puncher like Tyson talk, glacially slow Breazeale and a third trimester Stiverene who had zero intention of showing up for a fight. The Ortiz rematch was ok and fair play to Wilder but in large part meaningless and predictable. Not to mention Ortiz even getting another opportunity after juicing up twice. And again he was being shut out. Then there was Fury, who like others actually got up off that right hand and had in large part boxed Wilders ears. He goes on about devastating a Szpilka or a Liakhovich and talks about thinking he killed them. Truth is they were both bombed out prior and bombed out after by others. Now I know this sounds like a pure slag on a man who has done nothing but win, save for one, and that's all you can ask of a guy. For that Wilder should be respected and does bring an air of 'personality' and excitement. Well done for him. But in an odd way it almost feels boring imo. Then again I've always thought the heavyweights a bit overrated and have never liked the tunnel vision focus of raking up ko numbers which can be stacked up like legos. It's not a hate. For all the bluster he seems a decent enough cat. I just don't think he comes remotely close to accomplishing or applying skill and competing on the levels of so many of those earlier heavies.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose. ;D

Some theories come to mind.

a) His lack of boxing skills.

Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

b) His early record of bums.

To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ;D ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... :rolleyes: That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.

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Everything except B and F. The guy’s a prick, end of.
And I Don’t buy the point about him fighting Fury is like Crawford fighting a Cruiserweight. Meaningless nonsense!
So what about Haye fighting Valuev?

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose. ;D

Some theories come to mind.

a) His lack of boxing skills.

Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

b) His early record of bums.

To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ;D ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... :rolleyes: That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.

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Everything except B and F. The guy’s a prick, end of.
And I Don’t buy the point about him fighting Fury is like Crawford fighting a Cruiserweight. Meaningless nonsense!
So what about Haye fighting Valuev?

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Math is meaningless. The most Primo comment ever. So good I want to injected it directly into my veins.

Math bad, opinion good ug ug haha

In this instance for me because though Wilder has looked lazy before, he has never looked so much like a one trick pony. Completely outboxed and did very little. I don't buy into the still learning and started boxing late argument as he could be working on things year in year out with expert coaches. He is resting on that single weapon now and it will be his undoing. All it takes is for someone to last a few rounds more and Fury for instance has probably taken a lot of confidence from this. He knows what he did wrong last time and doesn't need to be very fan friendly to shut Wilder down.

Actually on re-watching it I think the referee was far too quick to call it off. Ortiz was not out like Fury, did get up, and had a full minute or so between rounds to evaluate where he was at. I think it was a premature stoppage.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Actually on re-watching it I think the referee was far too quick to call it off. Ortiz was not out like Fury, did get up, and had a full minute or so between rounds to evaluate where he was at. I think it was a premature stoppage.

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I said the same about Herol Graham v Julian Jackson

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Actually on re-watching it I think the referee was far too quick to call it off. Ortiz was not out like Fury, did get up, and had a full minute or so between rounds to evaluate where he was at. I think it was a premature stoppage.

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I said the same about Herol Graham v Julian Jackson

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\

Graham was old cold, Ortiz was a bit like Fury in that he was nowhere for a couple of seconds, then putting his mouth piece in and getting up, he was regaining his senses pretty quickly. Another 90 seconds and who knows. They could have stopped it between rounds if Ortiz was really bad. He was hardly Hatton'ed. He was doing his post fight interviews and all of that. I am a benefit of the doubt kind of person. This ref would have held Fury down or something.

Ortiz reminded me of Tyson trying to put his gum shield back into his mouth when he lost against Buster Douglas. He was “out if it” and was in no fit state to carry on.

Wilder talks bollocks we all know that - I don't really pay any attention. A lot of fighters talk bollocks its part of the game.

Wilder fights to his strengths and at the moment its working for him so I'm not going to slate him. His record speaks for itself - yes there are tomato cans along the way but who hasn't got those.

2020 will hopefully see him, Fury, AJ and Ruiz fight off - even if a couple of them lose against each other I think theres worth in them still fighting the others as the styles make it interesting.

There's not many fighters who don't get flak from knowledgeable fans so hey ho

Wilder is still learning? Blimey. Even Manny Steward told him to just do what you do ;D

He gets "flak" from serious boxing nerds because he's the self-anointed greatest ever and his modern fanbase, who are gassed by viral clips of knockouts, have no idea how weak is resume is or how strong past greats were. Whether or not someone likes/hates him is irrelevant, anyone who thinks he's currently a "great" is clueless and anyone who thinks he's toilet is clueless.

The facts are - He's literally beat ONE man who could've been a possible top 10 contender in previous eras - Ortiz. A man who in this modern era of multi titles not only failed to capture a title but hasn't defeated a single former titlist.

It's not "hate" to compare him with former fighters and it says nothing about Fury or Joshua to speculate who would have beat him. If anyone thinks Wilder could have knocked out Oliver McCall you DKSAB and that's a fact. So therefore he has to win on points, which takes skill, something Wilder abundantly lacks, hence losing the majority of rounds against his two credible opponents.

Let's not forget he already lost to a big fat not ready for primetime Fury. It's only because the heavyweight division is so poor that he's champ and he's such an unappealing character that that annoys the hell out of a lot of people too. There's an awful lot not to like about him as a person and about his boxing skills. But he does have that right hand. Keep knocking people out and it quiets the arguments to a large extent. Anybody with decent skills who can stay out of the way of the right hand for twelve rounds can beat him easily. It's going to happen at some point. Could be Fury, could be Usyk, could be some replacement scrub who comes in at short notice and has the night of his life. Somebody is going to make him look stupid at some point.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Just a general question, mind you. Not singling anybody out... just a general observation. I'm also not claiming Wilder's the second coming of Muhammad Ali or anything of the sort. I thought I'd throw those disclaimers out there before the hounds are let loose. ;D

Some theories come to mind.

a) His lack of boxing skills.

Wilder got a relative late start in boxing. Probably missed some of the traditional coaching afforded to fighters that start off as teenagers and have been in boxing all their lives. So he's predictably raw. Still learning... but raw. When he gets excited by hurting the opponent, he still gets wild and throws windmill punches which look ugly as hell. On the plus side, he's very athletic, which surely helps him overcome some of those boxing skill liabilities.

b) His early record of bums.

To be clear, I was one of the most outspoken critics of this from the very beginning. My patience was wearing a bit thin in that regard. But he's rectified that. To continue hanging that albatross around his neck when he's been fighting worthy competition for a while now... is a bit unfair. I know I do that too with a certain other fighter.... ;D ...... but that's just because I can't stand him.

c) The nonsense he says and how he acts.

It's true... the whole "body on his record" nonsense pretty turned everybody off, myself included. I'm sure a lot of the other stuff he says rubs some people the wrong way. But he's basically an exuberant fighter, trying to cope with and enjoy his rising fame in the best way. Last night I saw him speaking after the fight, and he comported himself quite decently. So I'm willing to cut him some slack.

d) He'd "get his ass kicked by champions from other generations."

Yeah, ok. So what does that mean for the Joshuas and Furys of the current crop? That they'd somehow fare better? C'mon...... :rolleyes: That just sounds like hate to me. Fury's a light hitting heavy, gifted with extreme height and reach, good boxing skills, but fully capable of horribly nauseating fights, like the one where he beat Klitschko. He's also fought two barely live bodies after Wilder, something Deontay would be burned at the stake for. He trash talks a lot better than any heavy of today, so people love him. Joshua is a nice enough fellow... but his flaws were totally exposed by the rotund Ruiz. So you can't single Wilder out and say he'd be crushed by the old crop of heavies, while leaving out the others.

e) He only has the right hand and nothing else.

Well... lately that's all he's needed. But like I said, he's still learning and given his late start, I feel he's made some pretty good progress. Some here felt that Fury was shutting him out prior to his knockdowns and that's all fine and good, since opinions are a dime a dozen among boxing fans. I personally thought he was holding his own, and the decision could've gone either way. The rematch by all rights should have occurred immediately.... and it wasn't Wilder that blinked..... for whatever reason. Still not holding my breath that the rematch will actually take place.

f) First time he's in serious trouble he'll fold like a lawn chair.

Yeah, I thought like that too. But King Kong Ortiz had him in a heap of trouble in their first fight. Wilder, he of the non-existent boxing skills..... managed to get out of the round and eventually won by knockout. Again..... another learning experience.



I'm not a diehard Wilder fan... I'm just trying to level the playing field here. I'm actually a diehard boxing fan who's grateful that the division is back from its mind-numbingly boring years during the reign of Wlad.

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Everything except B and F. The guy’s a prick, end of.
And I Don’t buy the point about him fighting Fury is like Crawford fighting a Cruiserweight. Meaningless nonsense!
So what about Haye fighting Valuev?

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Math is meaningless. The most Primo comment ever. So good I want to injected it directly into my veins.

Math bad, opinion good ug ug haha

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Listen Shag , nobody said “Math” is meaningless, your fucking theory is meaningless . I notice you never answered when I said what about Haye v Valuev? Fucking inject that direct into your veins.
Same old story from Ronnie Baby! Probably won’t answer , skulk off for a week and then come back at me on another thread thinking everything is forgotten.
Bit like when I asked you what I said wrong on your “Russian states” bollocks? Total silence!

I'll enjoy the Wilder ride while it lasts. I actually think he knocks out Fury in a rematch. I still think Usyk causes him all kinds of issues.

Boxing is unique and peculiar among sports in the following way:

Wilder knocks out Luis Ortiz in two of his last four fights, and continues to get all sorts of hate.

Fury beats "Tom and Otto" after facing Wilder (and "Sefer and Francesco" before facing Wilder), and continues to have fans fawn all over him.

Go figure. :D

I guess the question is who on this board thinks that Wilder is an elite fighter? I don’t think that anybody does. I know a lot of casuals do because they don’t really watch boxing, but saying that Wilder isn’t that skilled and would lose to HWs of the past is just preaching to the choir here. Nobody here believes that he is some sort of ATG fighter.

So putting aside what others say about him, what is everyone’s opinion on him? I think that we would all come up with about the same idea. The difference is if we think he beats or loses to Fury or AJ/Ruiz

I think most of it comes down to his personality, or at least the way he presents it. Of course he lacks skills, but if he were an entirely different character and was honest about that, most people who bash him would probably cheer him on. Suppose for a second he had a Glen Johnson kind of attitude/way of speaking about himself. The fact is his flaws don't make him bad to watch. It's going to be must see viewing any time he fights a top opponent because you just never know if/when he'll land that eraser. For my money he also has gotten a lot better at delivering it. You look at his last few KOs or the knockdowns against Fury, and as much as he was shown up for long stretches of the fights, when he does land there is nothing wild or amateurish about it. Bringing up Oliver McCall, Mercer, Tua etc are extreme examples and of course would be real bad match ups for him, but surely it's to his credit you have to dig up guys that he wouldn't have every chance of flattening? Look how people still talk about Earnie Shavers, who only had a right hand, wasn't any more sound technically than Wilder and to boot couldn't really take a punch.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I think most of it comes down to his personality, or at least the way he presents it. Of course he lacks skills, but if he were an entirely different character and was honest about that, most people who bash him would probably cheer him on. Suppose for a second he had a Glen Johnson kind of attitude/way of speaking about himself. The fact is his flaws don't make him bad to watch. It's going to be must see viewing any time he fights a top opponent because you just never know if/when he'll land that eraser. For my money he also has gotten a lot better at delivering it. You look at his last few KOs or the knockdowns against Fury, and as much as he was shown up for long stretches of the fights, when he does land there is nothing wild or amateurish about it. Bringing up Oliver McCall, Mercer, Tua etc are extreme examples and of course would be real bad match ups for him, but surely it's to his credit you have to dig up guys that he wouldn't have every chance of flattening? Look how people still talk about Earnie Shavers, who only had a right hand, wasn't any more sound technically than Wilder and to boot couldn't really take a punch.

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But people only talk about Shavers because of his power and not his greatness. It’s more than likely that Shavers could do the same thing that Wilder is doing now in the current division and people would be clamoring about his power and dominance too.

I think Ortiz or Fury would have beat the shit out of or stopped Shavers myself, but that wasn't my point. Not saying Wilder is a great, only that the reason people dont like him is because they don't personally. In the ring he is good to watch and his power is fun. He'll be talked about, especially if he keeps going and adds a few more displays of power at a high level.

he finds that sweet spot. however flawed he is, he gets it done. when the time comes and someone avoids that power, it'll be an embarrasing defeat

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Originally Posted by TIC

he finds that sweet spot. however flawed he is, he gets it done. when the time comes and someone avoids that power, it'll be an embarrasing defeat

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Tyson won 10 rounds against Wilder, he only lost the rounds he got knocked down and still did not get the decision. That was a ring rusty contender, this time he will comprehensively out box and befuddle Wilder. Fury has shown he can take his right hand and get up.

There is nothing stopping Fury and provided he does not get careless he will beat Wilder. If Fury could punch harder he would stop Wilder so he will settle for the comprehensive UD.

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

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I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

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I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

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@Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

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I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

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@Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

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I got a feeling Fatboxingfan hates Rocky and thinks he was over rated.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by TIC

he finds that sweet spot. however flawed he is, he gets it done. when the time comes and someone avoids that power, it'll be an embarrasing defeat

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Tyson won 10 rounds against Wilder, he only lost the rounds he got knocked down and still did not get the decision. That was a ring rusty contender, this time he will comprehensively out box and befuddle Wilder. Fury has shown he can take his right hand and get up.

There is nothing stopping Fury and provided he does not get careless he will beat Wilder. If Fury could punch harder he would stop Wilder so he will settle for the comprehensive UD.

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Fury barely got by Wallin. I don't think his heart is in the game anymore. I expect Wilder to turn his lights out. I agree with you tho, that if Fury hit harder he could have stopped Wilder in the 1st fight.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

---

I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

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@Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

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I got a feeling Fatboxingfan hates Rocky and thinks he was over rated.

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Je no think so monsieur.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by TIC

he finds that sweet spot. however flawed he is, he gets it done. when the time comes and someone avoids that power, it'll be an embarrasing defeat

---

Tyson won 10 rounds against Wilder, he only lost the rounds he got knocked down and still did not get the decision. That was a ring rusty contender, this time he will comprehensively out box and befuddle Wilder. Fury has shown he can take his right hand and get up.

There is nothing stopping Fury and provided he does not get careless he will beat Wilder. If Fury could punch harder he would stop Wilder so he will settle for the comprehensive UD.

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Fury barely got by Wallin. I don't think his heart is in the game anymore. I expect Wilder to turn his lights out. I agree with you tho, that if Fury hit harder he could have stopped Wilder in the 1st fight.

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Facing Wilder will mean Fury will bring a lot more focus and determination in his game than he did against Wallin.

It is amazing what that right hand from Wilder will do to Tyson's concentration levels when they meet again. :)

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

---

I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

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@Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

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Yes mon ami I've.

One Number: those point about "former LHWs" -- is ridicule because Evander Holyfield was also former LHW, so what that's point? Second on that's same point: ALL those guy mentioned (Walcott, Charles, Moore) ALL OUTWEIGHED Marciano, in some cases by 20 pounds (Walcott weighed in at 198 those morning of the fight, but weighed 206 by fight time that night) Marciano weighed in at 184, that's 22 pounds difference! A massive quantite! And 37 years YOUNG Joe Louis -- 37 year!! Why is that old for a Heavyweight? Joe Louis won ALL 7 ROUNDS WITH HIS JAB AND STRAIGHT RIGHT AGAINST MARCIANO, 37 is not old. Foreman fighted until 49. Klitschasko until 41. Hollyfield until 45.

Two Number:


Rex Layne (34-1, 23 KOs), Lee Savold (104-35, 40 KOs) and Harry "Kid" Matthews (81-3, 33 KOs) were Top 5 ranked by Ring Magazine in 1951. Two outweighed Marciano by 25 pounds. And were same age as Marciano. Savold, Layne and Matthews nowadays would give ANY heavbyweight fits, fighting off the back foot and lateral movement, and great power and chins. Nobody talking about Rex Layne and Kid Matthews. Here is what that's Marciano did to they:

SKIP TO 7:30 OF THIS VIDEO, UPDATED HD 16 mm TRANSFER, MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, 1952, MATTHEWS FIGHTING LIKE MAX SCHMELING-- Marcinao ALREADY had his left hand working, as you will see from 7:30, not "later in his career" but early on. Watch from 7:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1IOPl_8iWQ

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

---

I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

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@Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

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Yo Primo..... what are you trying to imply? :D

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by X

"He has only got a right hand, can't really hit with his left at all, came to boxing late, little amateur grounding, laughably clumsy, no skills. Carefully managed against bums on the way up. Heavyweight division is so weak, he can defend against people who wouldn't even be contenders usually"

No, not Wilder ...... that's what they were saying about Rocky Marciano during his reign

---

I actually think that Marciano is overrated. He’s another one of those anomalies. He was hardly a HW and his top wins were all against former light HWs (Charles, Walcott, and Moore).

Although Marciano did learn to throw his left better later in his career. He also had intangibles that Wilder doesn’t have. Both have great right hands, but Marciano had a granite chin and his toughness brought him to the top as much as his right hand did. I think that if Wilder showed the chin and toughness as Marciano, we would all be more willing to anoint him an elite fighter.

---

@Fatboxingfan , do you have anything to say about that statement mon ami? because I know how much like you the Rocky Marciano pugilist!

---

Yes mon ami I've.

One Number: those point about "former LHWs" -- is ridicule because Evander Holyfield was also former LHW, so what that's point? Second on that's same point: ALL those guy mentioned (Walcott, Charles, Moore) ALL OUTWEIGHED Marciano, in some cases by 20 pounds (Walcott weighed in at 198 those morning of the fight, but weighed 206 by fight time that night) Marciano weighed in at 184, that's 22 pounds difference! A massive quantite! And 37 years YOUNG Joe Louis -- 37 year!! Why is that old for a Heavyweight? Joe Louis won ALL 7 ROUNDS WITH HIS JAB AND STRAIGHT RIGHT AGAINST MARCIANO, 37 is not old. Foreman fighted until 49. Klitschasko until 41. Hollyfield until 45.

Two Number:


Rex Layne (34-1, 23 KOs), Lee Savold (104-35, 40 KOs) and Harry "Kid" Matthews (81-3, 33 KOs) were Top 5 ranked by Ring Magazine in 1951. Two outweighed Marciano by 25 pounds. And were same age as Marciano. Savold, Layne and Matthews nowadays would give ANY heavbyweight fits, fighting off the back foot and lateral movement, and great power and chins. Nobody talking about Rex Layne and Kid Matthews. Here is what that's Marciano did to they:

SKIP TO 7:30 OF THIS VIDEO, UPDATED HD 16 mm TRANSFER, MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, 1952, MATTHEWS FIGHTING LIKE MAX SCHMELING-- Marcinao ALREADY had his left hand working, as you will see from 7:30, not "later in his career" but early on. Watch from 7:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1IOPl_8iWQ

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Je suis D’accord mon ami. Mange tout! As Del Boy would say. ;);D

Wilder is continue to getting so many FLAK because he probablement cannot fighting liek THIS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKtDfZNSeyI

Number One: Evander Holyfield was never Light Heavyweight champion he was the undisputed Cruiserweight champion.

Number Two: When Joe Louis fought Rocky at 37 years of age that was old for a fighter in those days because he fought more often, against harder opposition and was losing most of his fights at the end of his career.

Number Three: Archie Moore was a great light heavyweight and at 38 years of age still managed to knock down Rocky as did Walcott.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

I think most of it comes down to his personality, or at least the way he presents it. Of course he lacks skills, but if he were an entirely different character and was honest about that, most people who bash him would probably cheer him on. Suppose for a second he had a Glen Johnson kind of attitude/way of speaking about himself. The fact is his flaws don't make him bad to watch. It's going to be must see viewing any time he fights a top opponent because you just never know if/when he'll land that eraser. For my money he also has gotten a lot better at delivering it. You look at his last few KOs or the knockdowns against Fury, and as much as he was shown up for long stretches of the fights, when he does land there is nothing wild or amateurish about it. Bringing up Oliver McCall, Mercer, Tua etc are extreme examples and of course would be real bad match ups for him, but surely it's to his credit you have to dig up guys that he wouldn't have every chance of flattening? Look how people still talk about Earnie Shavers, who only had a right hand, wasn't any more sound technically than Wilder and to boot couldn't really take a punch.

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My point with the iron chins is - they weren't the elite of their time yet I struggle to see Wilder beating them, however, bizarrely I give him more chance against Lennox, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe (*wait up, wait up). Wilder's power isn't up for debate, imo, he would have been dangerous in any era, however, ironing out Ortiz is quite simply not enough to be in a "greatest ever puncher" conversation (*for what it's worth I think the elite guys would've ironed him out 9 and half out of 10).

There's about a dozen current heavyweights who are serious challenges for Wilder - Uysk, Povetkin, Whyte, Parker, Ruiz, Joshua, even Rivas, Chisora, Pulev, Kownacki, Hunter - maybe he blows them all away, great, he should currently start favourite over all, but just add some funking substance to the hype.

Who anointed Ortiz superior to that lot? Who did he ever beat? (i'm not saying Ortiz is any worst than that lot either... apart from Uysk, of course, who is P4P level)

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Originally Posted by Master

Number One: Evander Holyfield was never Light Heavyweight champion he was the undisputed Cruiserweight champion.

Number Two: When Joe Louis fought Rocky at 37 years of age that was old for a fighter in those days because he fought more often, against harder opposition and was losing most of his fights at the end of his career.

Number Three: Archie Moore was a great light heavyweight and at 38 years of age still managed to knock down Rocky as did Walcott.

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Master,

Number one, I didn't say Evander Holyfield had to be the champion of the light heavyweights I said he started out at 175 just like ezzard Charles and Archie Moore started out in that posters point I responded to. he was trying to say they started out so small and that therefore it was not such a big challenge for Marciano.

number two Joe Louis had only lost one time when he fought Rocky Marciano so I don't know what you mean by he was losing a lot at the end of his career. I will give you this that 37 years old back then for some reason was considered ancient. I still think 37 is not so old at all for a heavyweight no matter what era we are talkin about

Number three when have I ever disputed that Archie Moore was great? He's knocked down of Marciano is picture perfect. Marciano throws a wild and amateurish overhand right which which Archie more gracefully steps back just a few inches from and then fires a beautiful and picture perfect counter right hook sort of upper cut right on the button of Marciano's chin. Credit to Rocky Marciano for getting up at the count of two because that sharpshot marcio did not even see coming. he shook that punch off and I think he won the rest of the round and then he knocked moore down in the following around I believe for the first of four knockdowns.