Both have insane athleticism, and both did things in the sport that nobody has done before or since. But who ranks higher on the ATG list?
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Both have insane athleticism, and both did things in the sport that nobody has done before or since. But who ranks higher on the ATG list?
Roy Jones Jr.
Roy Jones is the best pound for pound boxer I have seen in my life time. Better than sweat pea, PAC man, loma, JCC etc
Manny :peeker:. Competition is consistently insane as is longevity. Think he's a more fundamentally sound fighter. Has been planked under a half dozen times. Roy takes the explosiveness all time reflex phenom title though.
very tough question.... did RJJs aura get tainted when he got KOed too much at the end? SHould we consider that part? Whereas Pac opnly got sparked that one time.... Pac maybe had better competition...... no not maybe, definitely.... I cant decide, really. RJJ going up to heavy and winning...
I'll go with RJJ, but it was a very tough call, and Im not sure 100%.
Anything after the ko by Tarver does not take away the brilliance of Roy Jones. He beat prime Toney, Hopkins, cleaned up light heavyweight and beat 1 heavyweight titlist.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSavingByTheBell
I love Roy, but when he was shot he was shot.
Manny has past his prime but seems to have less tools that have diminished.
Roy’s super human reflexes and killer combos were put to bed post Tarver 2..except Lacey?
Hopefully Manny will retire before he has an embarrassing loss in the ring that shows his age.
Pretty boy was Floyds prime and he had the sense and brains to adjust his style to turn into a less fan friendly Money Mayweather!
Floyd is the complete boxer who has adjusted his style knowing that he past his prime and continued to complete at a high level.
Floyd is the TBE of this era and knew when to leave the sport.
Going by emotions, I pick Pac. But if I go by what was proven- How I think fans 50 years or more would judge- I think basic mathematics. What did they accomplish.
RJJ turned pro in 1989
Won IBF middleweight title in 1993, 4 years after turning pro.
Won IBF super middleweight title in 1994 over Boxing's then ranked #1 P4P fighter James Toney.
Lost WBC light heavyweight title shot, then won it in 1997.
1998 he became the WBC & WBA light heavyweight champ.
1999 he became the WBC, WBA & IBF light heavyweight champ.
2000 he became the WBC ,WBA, IBF & IBO light heavyweight champ.
After such a house cleaning in the LHW division he decided to even grab all major & minor belts in 2002 when he retained/gained WBA, WBC, IBF, IBO, WBF & IBA light heavyweight titles.
In 2003 he wins the pinnacle of Boxing's titles: Heavyweight champ.
It would take 14 years before he lost his 2nd fight.
Feel free to place Pac's record as a champ and or accomplishments. It doesn't compare.
In Pac's prime he was tested against JMM to a draw (I had him winning), got out-boxed by Morales in their 1st fight & busted/bloodied up to boot. Had been stopped twice before he hit age 30. 2 draws before age 30. ( I think they were unfair draws, but also think RJJ DQ was unfair) My resolve is shit happens.
Whereas Roy had no competitors in his youth, and he took on the #1 P4P fighter to win the SMW (albeit Toney fucked up by binge eating in between fights)
Neither ranks in my top 10.
RJJ ranks in my Top 20, Pac does not, but I don't see it as a bad thing for those who do put Pac in their top 20. Top 10, hell naw, I got a problem with that.
Who are your top 20 as I would struggle to not have Roy Jones in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterWho are your top 20 as I would struggle to not have Roy Jones in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
Let me search my history here before I put myself out there!!!;D
I'll be with the minority and say Pac. And I love RJJ. Became a fan when he destroyed "Yo" Vinnie Pazienzia who had gotten a bit too big for his britches.
Ahhh yeah, Vinnie "Open Up A Can of Whoop-Ass" Pazienza.... he did make an ass out of himself, didnt he. Nice footwork, shouldve been a ballerina maybe.
Anyone picking Roy sure don't value quality of opposition much.
No disrespect but don't you think you looked at this with some serious bias? Now your opinion is your opinion, cool, I have no problem with Roy beating Pac in a P4P fantasy scenario, but when it comes to resume/accomplishments? No way.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
Pac losing wars with first ballot HOF-er's and P4P-ers - Morales and Marquez - is more impressive than 90% of the fighters Roy even faced. The very fact he ran it back to avenge losses/draws is even more of a fillip.
If you're going to knock Pac for suffering an early defeat then what makes Roy's arguably 2nd or 3rd best ever win against Hopkins impressive? Hopkins had already lost too. And it was a decade later, after Hopkins beat Tito and Oscar, before Roy even got kudos for Hopkins.
All Roy's silverware means nothing without context, you can equally do that with Pac, eight division champion and whatnot. The real factor is who they beat? After 25 years Pac is still pulling off upsets against the best fighters in his division, Roy was getting knocked unconscious by men who couldn't touch him in his pomp.
And Roy never cleaned out 175, he needed to beat Michalczewski for that, the guy who was written out of history by American publications/TV networks.
I would have to go with Pacquiao even though I’m not a fan of his. Mainly because his resume is so good and has lasted so long at the top. So overall p4p, I would have to go with Pacquiao.
Now if we are talking about who was the better fighter at their peak, I would go with Jones. I think it’s hard for anybody to beat a peak Jones. The issue is that his competition lacked enough to not put him as a top 5 or even top 10 ever. Jones was as impressive as they come though.
No disrespect felt!:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo disrespect but don't you think you looked at this with some serious bias? Now your opinion is your opinion, cool, I have no problem with Roy beating Pac in a P4P fantasy scenario, but when it comes to resume/accomplishments? No way.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae
Pac losing wars with first ballot HOF-er's and P4P-ers - Morales and Marquez - is more impressive than 90% of the fighters Roy even faced. The very fact he ran it back to avenge losses/draws is even more of a fillip.
If you're going to knock Pac for suffering an early defeat then what makes Roy's arguably 2nd or 3rd best ever win against Hopkins impressive? Hopkins had already lost too. And it was a decade later, after Hopkins beat Tito and Oscar, before Roy even got kudos for Hopkins.
All Roy's silverware means nothing without context, you can equally do that with Pac, eight division champion and whatnot. The real factor is who they beat? After 25 years Pac is still pulling off upsets against the best fighters in his division, Roy was getting knocked unconscious by men who couldn't touch him in his pomp.
And Roy never cleaned out 175, he needed to beat Michalczewski for that, the guy who was written out of history by American publications/TV networks.
It's perspective based.
Losing wars IMO isn't better than winning by blowouts. HOF's don't base entrance how on one loses.
Again, 1st time out against Morales, he got drubbed. Great effort, but losing unanimous on all cards & busted up is not criteria for ATG status.
And why would I disqualify Pac's first few losses and draws? I take into account the entire career as opposed to prefacing on a period in their lives. Ignoring the bad magnifying the good IMO is the very definition of bias.
My ATG's didn't lose by KOs to unknowns and/or non ATGs during their prime. That's why I included Roys losses and stated the time it took to lose twice, I didn''t ignore it.
It's like you and me attempting to identify who ranks ATG J. Sullivan or Jack Johnson. Those who lived in those days can accurately state who was the better competition, we can't. No film to prove nor disprove. so what do we have to go by? Their record and their rule (longevity)
RJJ beat the P4P#1. Fact.
Pac did not. He did become one, but so too did RJJ.
You mention Roy never faced Michalczewski, I concur. I would also add Rocchigagini and possibly Nunn. We lived in that era, we know what fighters he did not face. So to me bias would be asking why didnt Roy fight Darious, but not asking why didn't Pac fight Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor . then undefeated Katsidis, or the guy who took baby bulls (0) Nate Campbell. They were all champs & called him out. Just like Dariusz they all were champs who eventually lost.
I used the same criteria to rate both.
& if not for silverware, then no need for Pac to have ever vied for them then, but he did and he lost each time out he went after multiple belts.
Keeping in context how then do I rate his winning titles over Chokchai Chockvivat, Ledwaba and David Diaz as substantive?:confused: How are those wins more significant than Roy's win over Hop who went on to become a legend? 17 years ago Body Snatcher McCallum was inducted to the HOF, never stopped in his career. I think his name isn't mentioned because enough time has past that this generation can't identify how great he was anymore than we can gauge how great were the LHWs Mike Spinks fought in the 1970s. But Roy beat MCCallum as well & that doesn't qualify as a great win?
I would wager most people on this board - that are in their 20s don't have a clue as to Chockvivat, Ledwaba and or Diaz is.;D Let alone fans 100 years from today.
And again my opinion, but I see winning (one) titles in 8 divisions as breaking a record no one could have done prior to his era, because they didnt have that many divisions, disagree? It is not my criteria for ATG status. Great of his era? For sure!!' Got to point out you mentioned Roy's losses at the end, but seem to excuse Pac's losses in his rookie years.
Pac no doubt beat some of the best in his era, MAB, Morales, Marquez. Tomorrow many may add on Shane Mosley, Miguel Cotto- who cares where they were at in their careers? Those names are worthy of mentioning.
And when I finish adding up the greats he fought, I still have to ask myself: why did Pac lose every time he vied for multiple belts? I will not justify it & say, oh, but they were wars so that has to be taken into account. No sir, a loss is a loss. How do I hold Roy accountable for not fighting Dariusz but not Pac for fighting Paul Williams who also called him out as a WW champ?:o
I am as objective and evenly vetting as I could possibly be when comparing the two. Rookie years Pac got whooped, Roy didn't.
Prime years Pac lost and drew 2x Roy got DQ'd. Both became P4P.
Roy won titles from every major org Pac got WBO & not too much more.
Those who Pac did not fight are no lesser/greater than who Roy didn't fight.
So Roy ranks higher because he lost lesser fights in his rookie & prime years than did PaC. He won more titles than Pac. He held them longer did Pac. Maintained P4P status longer. Pac's career has last longer than did Roy's & RJJ can't beat Pac's record of 8 divisions because he began at MW, only 5 divisions to win, yet he became a MW champ who won the HW title. Roy's Ruiz IMO is Pac's David Diaz, they both won a title against the weakest foe in one division. How is that biased criteria?:cool: