Boxing lost value by not having Wilder v Joshua when we wanted it

I said it, the revenue that fight would have generated 5 years ago would have been monsterous. It would have helped a venue, helped the undercard fighters, helped the promoters to find and develop new talent and would have been good for whatever network that wanted it. Not that Wilder or Joshua would have been the guy to pin your hopes on 5 years after the fight, but for the fact that fans- legit and casuals- wanted it badly at that time.

Now, even if they fight, nobody gives a fuck anymore.

As heavyweight fights go that would have been a huge unification of power punchers.

Big fights do not always happen. Plenty of examples of that in the history of the game.

I Don’t get this “Missed opportunity “ line that is reeled out.
I think time and hindsight has shown us that we didn’t miss out on anything special.
Wilder was always overrated and the reason he wasn’t exposed any earlier is because he was never put in with an opponent to expose him.
Let’s be honest, Fury’s comeback and losing 140lbs etc. was amazing. But if Wilder was anywhere near the fighter he was hyped up to be, he should be able to deal with that.

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

I Don’t get this “Missed opportunity “ line that is reeled out.
I think time and hindsight has shown us that we didn’t miss out on anything special.
Wilder was always overrated and the reason he wasn’t exposed any earlier is because he was never put in with an opponent to expose him.
Let’s be honest, Fury’s comeback and losing 140lbs etc. was amazing. But if Wilder was anywhere near the fighter he was hyped up to be, he should be able to deal with that.

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The possible fight went beyond just the combatants. But it had to do with the entire event. Plus, the winner would have gone on to have huge endorsements and notoriety and the like. USA v UK is the new Holmes v Cooney or Ali v Wepner/London or Cooper...

Then as I said the undercard would have been solid and would have made names out of fighters just by being a part of that extravaganza. Don't think so small.

As we criticize Wilder we can't dismiss Joshua's "hoe" like nature. He was thinking he was more a super model than he was a fighter at that time. We saw he was exposed by Ruiz and by Usyk... He can never beat Usyk. And the only reason he beat Ruiz the second time is because Ruiz came in fat and out of shape and still could not put Ruiz away and he fought a shitty fight. Back in the day, you actually had to beat the champ... not just come in and waltz around and win a sissy decision.

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Originally Posted by ykdadamaja

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

I Don’t get this “Missed opportunity “ line that is reeled out.
I think time and hindsight has shown us that we didn’t miss out on anything special.
Wilder was always overrated and the reason he wasn’t exposed any earlier is because he was never put in with an opponent to expose him.
Let’s be honest, Fury’s comeback and losing 140lbs etc. was amazing. But if Wilder was anywhere near the fighter he was hyped up to be, he should be able to deal with that.

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The possible fight went beyond just the combatants. But it had to do with the entire event. Plus, the winner would have gone on to have huge endorsements and notoriety and the like. USA v UK is the new Holmes v Cooney or Ali v Wepner/London or Cooper...

Then as I said the undercard would have been solid and would have made names out of fighters just by being a part of that extravaganza. Don't think so small.

As we criticize Wilder we can't dismiss Joshua's "hoe" like nature. He was thinking he was more a super model than he was a fighter at that time. We saw he was exposed by Ruiz and by Usyk... He can never beat Usyk. And the only reason he beat Ruiz the second time is because Ruiz came in fat and out of shape and still could not put Ruiz away and he fought a shitty fight. Back in the day, you actually had to beat the champ... not just come in and waltz around and win a sissy decision.

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I agree with the "missed opportunity" angle. Hindsight is 20/20, and now everyone "knows" Wilder was always shet. Except that the Wilder that failed against Fury could've very well knocked Joshua out. Styles make fights. Wilder was still brimming with confidence... and as it turns out Joshua isn't the paragon of invincibility everyone thought he was prior to his knockout loss to fat boy Ruiz.

Wilder-Joshua at that time would've been massive, regardless of the results. Too bad for boxing it didn't happen.

“The possible fight went beyond just the combatants”
“Wilder-Joshua at that time would've been massive, regardless of the results.”
Ok , so we’re saying hype is more important than the sport now?
Whatever, let’s just get the Ryan Garcia v Jake Paul fight made immediately before “Boxing suffers real bad”
Perhaps on the undercard we CAN have Conor Benn v Pacquaio, and Canelo v KSI.
That card will really recover “Boxing’s value!” :rolleyes:
The sport has gone.

C'mon. You know those aren't good comparisons.

Ryan is a one-hit wonder, who has always only appealed to the social media crowd. Jake is a YouTuber turned boxer.

You know that rightly or wrongly, Wilder at one time was being touted as the next great American heavyweight champion. There's always been a tremendous need for one of those, since the days of Mike Tyson ended. Meanwhile, Joshua was the British counterpart. Undefeated, personable, powerful... both seemed destined to meet.

That eventually both showed cracks in their armor is beside the point. The point is that at THAT time, it would've been a massive fight. I personally was disappointed when it didn't happen, and gave way to Wilder-Fury.

Again, hindsight is 20/20... and no sport suffers from this quite like boxing.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

C'mon. You know those aren't good comparisons.

Ryan is a one-hit wonder, who has always only appealed to the social media crowd. Jake is a YouTuber turned boxer.

You know that rightly or wrongly, Wilder at one time was being touted as the next great American heavyweight champion. There's always been a tremendous need for one of those, since the days of Mike Tyson ended. Meanwhile, Joshua was the British counterpart. Undefeated, personable, powerful... both seemed destined to meet.

That eventually both showed cracks in their armor is beside the point. The point is that at THAT time, it would've been a massive fight. I personally was disappointed when it didn't happen, and gave way to Wilder-Fury.

Again, hindsight is 20/20... and no sport suffers from this quite like boxing.

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We didn’t suffer from hindsight in this instance. We benefited from it. It told us that Wilder was overrated and Joshua was levels above.
The Joshua loss wth Ruiz was avenged . The losses to Usyk shows that Usyk is a level above, and he’s put himself back into the mix for a World Title shot, he is still relevant.
Wilder Drew then lost and what has happened since. Hype Bubble and Burst spring to mind.
There are probably 5, 6, maybe 8 guys who could beat Wilder. So why does he or did he deserve anything?

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

C'mon. You know those aren't good comparisons.

Ryan is a one-hit wonder, who has always only appealed to the social media crowd. Jake is a YouTuber turned boxer.

You know that rightly or wrongly, Wilder at one time was being touted as the next great American heavyweight champion. There's always been a tremendous need for one of those, since the days of Mike Tyson ended. Meanwhile, Joshua was the British counterpart. Undefeated, personable, powerful... both seemed destined to meet.

That eventually both showed cracks in their armor is beside the point. The point is that at THAT time, it would've been a massive fight. I personally was disappointed when it didn't happen, and gave way to Wilder-Fury.

Again, hindsight is 20/20... and no sport suffers from this quite like boxing.

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We didn’t suffer from hindsight in this instance. We benefited from it. It told us that Wilder was overrated and Joshua was levels above.
The Joshua loss wth Ruiz was avenged . The losses to Usyk shows that Usyk is a level above, and he’s put himself back into the mix for a World Title shot, he is still relevant.
Wilder Drew then lost and what has happened since. Hype Bubble and Burst spring to mind.
There are probably 5, 6, maybe 8 guys who could beat Wilder. So why does he or did he deserve anything?

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I could counter by saying that Fury ruined Wilder. A good boxer, taller and heavier than Wilder, with a good gameplan. He knocked out Wilder twice. Joshua on the other hand, has never fought Fury. No one can say for certain how that would've gone. You see, it's all speculation. It's easy to talk about Wilder's "crash-and-burn" after it's already happened, after he and Joshua went their separate ways. THAT... is the classic definition of hindsight. You concentrate on how Wilder has spiraled down, and use that to argue that Wilder was never any good, and would've lost to Joshua. AJ meanwhile got KO'ed by Ruiz. That he came back to avenge the loss is honestly beside the point. The Ruiz loss proved he is beatable.

Does Wilder now "deserve" anything? No. Did he "deserve" anything at that time? Depends on your point of view. Again, it's a matter of speculation with the benefit of hindsight.

But none of this even addresses the point of the OP. The point of the OP is that at the time... Wilder vs AJ would've been a huge boost for boxing. None of what you've stated about their later careers negates any of that.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

C'mon. You know those aren't good comparisons.

Ryan is a one-hit wonder, who has always only appealed to the social media crowd. Jake is a YouTuber turned boxer.

You know that rightly or wrongly, Wilder at one time was being touted as the next great American heavyweight champion. There's always been a tremendous need for one of those, since the days of Mike Tyson ended. Meanwhile, Joshua was the British counterpart. Undefeated, personable, powerful... both seemed destined to meet.

That eventually both showed cracks in their armor is beside the point. The point is that at THAT time, it would've been a massive fight. I personally was disappointed when it didn't happen, and gave way to Wilder-Fury.

Again, hindsight is 20/20... and no sport suffers from this quite like boxing.

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We didn’t suffer from hindsight in this instance. We benefited from it. It told us that Wilder was overrated and Joshua was levels above.
The Joshua loss wth Ruiz was avenged . The losses to Usyk shows that Usyk is a level above, and he’s put himself back into the mix for a World Title shot, he is still relevant.
Wilder Drew then lost and what has happened since. Hype Bubble and Burst spring to mind.
There are probably 5, 6, maybe 8 guys who could beat Wilder. So why does he or did he deserve anything?

---

I could counter by saying that Fury ruined Wilder. A good boxer, taller and heavier than Wilder, with a good gameplan. He knocked out Wilder twice. Joshua on the other hand, has never fought Fury. No one can say for certain how that would've gone. You see, it's all speculation. It's easy to talk about Wilder's "crash-and-burn" after it's already happened, after he and Joshua went their separate ways. THAT... is the classic definition of hindsight. You concentrate on how Wilder has spiraled down, and use that to argue that Wilder was never any good, and would've lost to Joshua. AJ meanwhile got KO'ed by Ruiz. That he came back to avenge the loss is honestly beside the point. The Ruiz loss proved he is beatable.

Does Wilder now "deserve" anything? No. Did he "deserve" anything at that time? Depends on your point of view. Again, it's a matter of speculation with the benefit of hindsight.

But none of this even addresses the point of the OP. The point of the OP is that at the time... Wilder vs AJ would've been a huge boost for boxing. None of what you've stated about their later careers negates any of that.

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1. so it's beside the point that AJ avenged his loss ? ok , does that go for Lennox Lewis and his 2 losses?
2. you say Wilder v AJ would have been a huge boost for boxing. i say that proves that Hype is more important than finding out who the best in the sport are .

It is always good thing to have top fighters in division fight each other

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

C'mon. You know those aren't good comparisons.

Ryan is a one-hit wonder, who has always only appealed to the social media crowd. Jake is a YouTuber turned boxer.

You know that rightly or wrongly, Wilder at one time was being touted as the next great American heavyweight champion. There's always been a tremendous need for one of those, since the days of Mike Tyson ended. Meanwhile, Joshua was the British counterpart. Undefeated, personable, powerful... both seemed destined to meet.

That eventually both showed cracks in their armor is beside the point. The point is that at THAT time, it would've been a massive fight. I personally was disappointed when it didn't happen, and gave way to Wilder-Fury.

Again, hindsight is 20/20... and no sport suffers from this quite like boxing.

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We didn’t suffer from hindsight in this instance. We benefited from it. It told us that Wilder was overrated and Joshua was levels above.
The Joshua loss wth Ruiz was avenged . The losses to Usyk shows that Usyk is a level above, and he’s put himself back into the mix for a World Title shot, he is still relevant.
Wilder Drew then lost and what has happened since. Hype Bubble and Burst spring to mind.
There are probably 5, 6, maybe 8 guys who could beat Wilder. So why does he or did he deserve anything?

---

I could counter by saying that Fury ruined Wilder. A good boxer, taller and heavier than Wilder, with a good gameplan. He knocked out Wilder twice. Joshua on the other hand, has never fought Fury. No one can say for certain how that would've gone. You see, it's all speculation. It's easy to talk about Wilder's "crash-and-burn" after it's already happened, after he and Joshua went their separate ways. THAT... is the classic definition of hindsight. You concentrate on how Wilder has spiraled down, and use that to argue that Wilder was never any good, and would've lost to Joshua. AJ meanwhile got KO'ed by Ruiz. That he came back to avenge the loss is honestly beside the point. The Ruiz loss proved he is beatable.

Does Wilder now "deserve" anything? No. Did he "deserve" anything at that time? Depends on your point of view. Again, it's a matter of speculation with the benefit of hindsight.

But none of this even addresses the point of the OP. The point of the OP is that at the time... Wilder vs AJ would've been a huge boost for boxing. None of what you've stated about their later careers negates any of that.

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1. so it's beside the point that AJ avenged his loss ? ok , does that go for Lennox Lewis and his 2 losses?
2. you say Wilder v AJ would have been a huge boost for boxing. i say that proves that Hype is more important than finding out who the best in the sport are .

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Lennox avenged his losses by stoppage wins (one of them spectacular). Joshua avenged his knockout loss with a careful and uninspiring decision against Ruiz.

But... I'm not knocking Joshua!! I'm saying it's beside point because as much as you've mentioned Joshua's current elevated stature in boxing... the truth is he has proven to be beatable against more than one opponent. Ergo, it's not far-fetched to think that just maybe the "pre-Fury" Wilder would've had the classic puncher's chance against AJ.

On #2, we'll agree to disagree. Again... hindsight is 20/20. It's easy now to trash Wilder after he crashed and burned against Fury, and has continued spiraling down. At the time, things were different. Wilder's head was different.

The "hype" statement is hogwash. You're a boxing fan... I'm a boxing fan. If you think hype is more important than finding out who's the best in the sport, well... we'll just leave that be.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

C'mon. You know those aren't good comparisons.

Ryan is a one-hit wonder, who has always only appealed to the social media crowd. Jake is a YouTuber turned boxer.

You know that rightly or wrongly, Wilder at one time was being touted as the next great American heavyweight champion. There's always been a tremendous need for one of those, since the days of Mike Tyson ended. Meanwhile, Joshua was the British counterpart. Undefeated, personable, powerful... both seemed destined to meet.

That eventually both showed cracks in their armor is beside the point. The point is that at THAT time, it would've been a massive fight. I personally was disappointed when it didn't happen, and gave way to Wilder-Fury.

Again, hindsight is 20/20... and no sport suffers from this quite like boxing.

---

We didn’t suffer from hindsight in this instance. We benefited from it. It told us that Wilder was overrated and Joshua was levels above.
The Joshua loss wth Ruiz was avenged . The losses to Usyk shows that Usyk is a level above, and he’s put himself back into the mix for a World Title shot, he is still relevant.
Wilder Drew then lost and what has happened since. Hype Bubble and Burst spring to mind.
There are probably 5, 6, maybe 8 guys who could beat Wilder. So why does he or did he deserve anything?

---

I could counter by saying that Fury ruined Wilder. A good boxer, taller and heavier than Wilder, with a good gameplan. He knocked out Wilder twice. Joshua on the other hand, has never fought Fury. No one can say for certain how that would've gone. You see, it's all speculation. It's easy to talk about Wilder's "crash-and-burn" after it's already happened, after he and Joshua went their separate ways. THAT... is the classic definition of hindsight. You concentrate on how Wilder has spiraled down, and use that to argue that Wilder was never any good, and would've lost to Joshua. AJ meanwhile got KO'ed by Ruiz. That he came back to avenge the loss is honestly beside the point. The Ruiz loss proved he is beatable.

Does Wilder now "deserve" anything? No. Did he "deserve" anything at that time? Depends on your point of view. Again, it's a matter of speculation with the benefit of hindsight.

But none of this even addresses the point of the OP. The point of the OP is that at the time... Wilder vs AJ would've been a huge boost for boxing. None of what you've stated about their later careers negates any of that.

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1. so it's beside the point that AJ avenged his loss ? ok , does that go for Lennox Lewis and his 2 losses?
2. you say Wilder v AJ would have been a huge boost for boxing. i say that proves that Hype is more important than finding out who the best in the sport are .

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Lennox avenged his losses by stoppage wins (one of them spectacular). Joshua avenged his knockout loss with a careful and uninspiring decision against Ruiz.

But... I'm not knocking Joshua!! I'm saying it's beside point because as much as you've mentioned Joshua's current elevated stature in boxing... the truth is he has proven to be beatable against more than one opponent. Ergo, it's not far-fetched to think that just maybe the "pre-Fury" Wilder would've had the classic puncher's chance against AJ.

On #2, we'll agree to disagree. Again... hindsight is 20/20. It's easy now to trash Wilder after he crashed and burned against Fury, and has continued spiraling down. At the time, things were different. Wilder's head was different.

The "hype" statement is hogwash. You're a boxing fan... I'm a boxing fan. If you think hype is more important than finding out who's the best in the sport, well... we'll just leave that be.

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1. Yep. And the other because he was scared to attack a guy who had a mental breakdown in the ring.
2. I’ve felt Wilder was overrated since well before then.

2. Yes you have and you were right. Credit to you for that. I myself felt his resume was bloated with nobodies. But the potential upside was there. An eraser of a right hand... athletic... barrels of confidence. Lousy technique, but had been able to get away with it in the past. As opposed to you, I considered his wins over Luis Ortiz to be good wins. Yeah the guy was old, blah blah blah... but he had been avoided like the plague.

And because of his potential upside, together with both their styles... I thought it had the possibility of a good match up. I guess we'll never know.

Missing Bowe v Lewis, when Riddick won the title for the first time, was a bigger historic fight than AJ v Wilder.

Protecting the '0' is too important these days. And why have 3/4 fights in a year when you can hype up one big one and make as much money.

Back in my day it didn't matter if one guy had beaten by this guy and that guy had beaten by another etc you just wanted to see them fight regardless. Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran - Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton.

Those days will never come back sadly.

Wonder how many true boxing fans there are out there these days like I was in my mid twenties - knew who everyone was, who'd beaten who etc and when they were fighting etc ? I dare say there won't be many out there.

Yeh I'm still not over missing Lewis v Bowe ;D. Hindsight is often 20-20. Buit also, there are times when things play out exactly as they intended to play out. I mean the fight not happening certainly did not cost both Wilder and AJ multiple follow up big opportunities. A critic...and I've been that of Wilder for the longest...can say that Joshua simply had the overall lasting ability career wise. Also have to acknowledge that Wilder also talked and priced himself out of other big fights with then top contenders also. Now granted, I get the lost value angle. It was one where factors came in like nationality, historic heavyweight matches, and it was one where fans would feel noy just financially invested but invested as fans. Overall, that is a feeling we seem to be losing because frankly platforms and the sport on whole do not "build" fights as we used to see back in different eras. Networks don't tell stories and think long term now. For the most part. Fans had a genuine feeling of investment with a Wilder-Joshua mega fight. But again that hindsight comes in...Wilder ultimately proved to be a bit of an explosive tin man who made some bad business decisions and remained badly flawed. I can actually see a scenario where let's say Joshua was sparked by Wilder at some point. And still see him exactly where he is today and Wilder where he is currently. Different path but same arrival. We'll never know. Interesting to mull over.

There's another angle here re when they get a fight on several years later when one of both are on the slide. It's more often than not for them to cash in but their levels, and let's face it their hunger, is more often than not not what it was.

Floyd v Manny for example was a poor spectacle. We all wanted the Manny that did Hatton but he was no more.

Fury v Joshua will probably happen in a couple of years time when they're way past their best. Prime battles of the main men are rare. And getting rarer. The fans lose and will continue to do so.