Oleksandr Usyk vs the Greats at Heavyweight

Dennilson got me outraged by his last post with his assertion that Oleksandr Usyk is not a great because he has not outclassed the top heavyweights yet.

Many people think that modern super heavyweights would beat the champions from the past. Usyk at 220lb has shown that is nonsense when he beats fighters that are 3 or 4 stone heavier than him. Literally pound for pound accomplishment in action.

If it was a simple task of jumping all over Oleksandr and using their weight then Fury and AJ would have done it but Usyk boxing skills mean they can not do it. Usyk footwork and work rate are exceptional.

Oleksandr Usyk showed his class by upsetting AJ to win the title and nearly stopping him in the last round, in the rematch he closed the show by winning the last 3 rounds. He battered Fury in round 9 like no one has before and won the rematch with more ease than the first fight.

Usyk outclassed Dubois and stopped him with ease. The angles and pace were phenomenal and triple D did not know what was happening to him. The punches were raining in from all sides. No body has done that to Dubois.

This is all from a former undisputed cruiserweight champion.

So how would Oleksandr Usyk do against the heavyweight greats of the past whith particular interest facing Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lennox and Wlad?

Here's my predictions prime for prime

Liston - Usyk by UD
Ali - Ali by UD or late stoppage
Frazier- Frazier by KO
Foreman - Foreman by KO
Holmes - SD Holmes
Tyson - tough call here Usyk by decision if he survives first 4 rounds
Holyfield - Draw
Bowe - Usyk by UD much same as Fury win
Lennox - Lennox KO around 8
Wlad - Wlad on points in a snoozefest

Liston - Usyk by late round stoppage, between 8 and 10
Ali - Ali by UD or late stoppage
Frazier- Usyk by UD
Foreman - Foreman by KO
Holmes - SD for Usyk
Tyson - pre-1992 Tyson mauls Usyk in 4 rounds, post 1992 before the second Holyfield fight, Mike gets himself DQ'd
Holyfield - Wide UD for Usyk
Bowe - Usyk by SD
Lennox - Lennox by KO in 8
Wlad - Wlad on points in a snoozefest...

Good thread this one, nice one @Master. I think “enraged” at @Denilson’s post is a bit over the top.
I don’t agree with everything he said, but he put a decent case (as he always does tbf. Until he gets carried away by race)
I’m counting this as Usyk’s prime, and I’m counting each of his opponents in their prime.
Liston - Usyk on points.
Ali - Ali on points.
Frazier- great fight , Usyk SD.
Foreman - Usyk Points
Holmes - Holmes Points
Tyson - Tyson KO between 6 & 10. (Any later than that and Usyk wins by late KO or points)
Holyfield - Holyfield SD
Bowe - Usyk SD
Lennox - Lewis UD
Wlad - Wlad on points
The way I see it Usyk deals with the big guys pretty well, hence beating Foreman and Bowe. Too much ring IQ for Liston. Ali is the same size , but Ali beats him in just about every department, although he probably doesn’t KO Usyk.
Infact the Critique @Denilson made about Usyk could almost be thrown at Ali if you think about it. Yes he KO’d Foreman, but Foreman was dead on his feet. And there’s always been a bit of controversy about the Liston KO.
I think he edges Frazier, Holmes keeps him off with his jab.
Holyfield would be all over Usyk like a rash, similar to Frazier but a little bit more skill in my book.
And I think styles make fights and prime Lennox and Wlad would be too awkward for Usyk. They would Jab, hold and lean all over Usyk for 12 rounds solid.

OK. I'll just go through a few past greats at heavyweight

Start off with Ali

Honestly ? Look. Any comparison between Usyk and Ali is simply not warranted.

Muhammed Ali best wins are prime George Foreman and Joe Frazier, that is top 10 heavyweights of all time. He also beat a very close to prime Sonny Liston, a top 10 heavyweight. There was a 14 year period between Ali winning the Lineal heavyweight title and the last time he held it

Usyk hasn't even had a 14 year career. He's only had 22 fights. For Usyk to try to compete, he’d have to beat Parker, Zhang, Bakole, Kabayel, Ituama, etc. Hell, Opetaia too probably Bivol and Beterbiev also. Ali fought literally everyone..

It would take a much more special fighter than Usyk to eclipse Ali at heavyweight. Usyk is good, but Ali does everything better than him and is simply far more talented. You know how Roy Jones was able to make elite technicians like James Toney and Bernard Hopkins look like mugs? That's that would happen to Usyk once Ali shows he's Usyk's equal in technical ability but has better stamina, faster hands, better foot speed and more power.

And I'm talking about young Ali (Cassisus Clay) not the Ali who fought Foreman or even Frazier, the Ali before the Vietnam sanction

I'm talking this Ali, the 1967 Cleveland Williams - Ali

https://youtu.be/4EmH-HsPY_Y

And as a young man, Ali could fight like that, at pretty much that pace for 15 rounds.

Now, if sum1 was to say Usyk would beat the 2nd coming of Ali ? Post Vietnam ? The slower, less dancing Ali ? That's a fair argument, I still don't think Usyk would, but I'm not as certain. I'm only 70% certain that the older Ali would beat Usyk, Whereas I'm 99% certain the young Ali beats Usyk.

A young Ali was pretty much untouchable before the forced exile from boxing. Mate - I'll take it to the next level. Usyk would not even land a punch on the young Ali (Cassius Clay). Maybe if Usyk went 15 years unbeaten at World title level, we could have a discussion about it.

But it's ironic that both Uysk and Ali share a birthday and are both are six foot three inches in height, have a seventy-eight reach and their optimum fighting weight is between 215 and 220 pounds,

Prime Mike Tyson

This should not even be a debate.

Prime Tyson would have been a stylistic nightmare for Usyk

Prime Tyson had

1. Foot speed
2. Hand speed
3. Stamina
4. Chin
5. Knockout power in both hands

Those 5 things are an impossible list of qualities for Usyk to overcome.

To beat Mike Tyson, you had to pretty much had to kill him. You had to beat the shit outta of him, round after round. To beat Tyson. You have to be brave and stand and trade with him centre ring and not take a step back and test his heart and desire. Usyk doesn't fight like that.

But if Usyk did stand toe to toe with Prime Tyson ? He's dead. He would not have the power to hurt Tyson, nor would he have the power that Tyson would respect.

If Usyk got on his bike ? Even worse, Tyson's foot speed would catch him and kill him

Just show people this is prime Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3kehplDupA

And prime Tyson was (And a lotta people don't realise this and he doesn't get enough credit for this) a gym rat. Young Mike was a spartan, one of the most professional, hardest working heavyweight champs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaEQ-vF26RM

We are talking prime Tyson, he could run a 5-minute mile, row 2000m in under 7 mins, he trained like a Triathlete.

You know what that means ? That means if Usyk was to get past 4 rounds tyson wouldn't gas like these modern day silverbacks do.

And that's the thing with Usyk, when he loses, it won't be a tactical chess match points loss, I think he'll loss very badly

Usyk is a modern day great, but an ATG ? I'm not sure

All of us agree that Usyk would not be able to beat Ali and Tyson.

My opinion is below.

Liston - Usyk by UD after working out how to get away from the Liston jab.
Ali - Ali by UD after working out the southpaw stance.
Frazier- Usyk SD after overcoming Smokin Frazier attacks with the left hooks.
Foreman - Usyk by UD bewildering slow George who will be hitting the air.
Holmes - Holmes by UD who will dominate with his jab and aggression.
Tyson - KO5 styles mean that Usyk would get hurt when he was counter punching.
Holyfield - Evander by SD pre Bowe 1, after Usyk by SD.
Bowe - Riddick by UD as Usyk could not get past that beautiful jab.
Lennox - Lennox KO 9 after bullying and brutalising Usyk.
Wlad - Usyk SD after Wlad is warned about his holding.

This is not to say that Usyk is a greater Heavyweight than the champions he beat above or worse than the ones he loses. You can only be the best in your generation which he is.

Usyk has had a long and successful amateur career. He unified the cruiserweight division beating champions in their home country. What he does at heavyweight is the icing on the cake (and the most lucrative) part of his boxing career.

Let’s go a bit more old school, to surprise those who think heavyweight boxing began in the 1960’s …..

Primo Carnera - Usyk handily outboxes the giant in a surprisingly good fight

Jack Dempsey - Dempsey’s viciousness and disregard for any of the rules discombobulates the ultra technical Usyk, who is caught in a whirlwind, taking a fearful beating and being stopped in the 5th

Jack Johnson - Usyk meets his technical match, the bout descends into a snooze fest of jabbing and clinching before ending in a disputed decision for Usyk that both fighters think they won, and the crowd who just want to get out of there

Bob Fitzsimmons - too small for Usyk, who toys with him and does as he pleases before closing the show after an accumulation of big shots in the 12th

Joe Louis - Usyk is the latest Bum of the Month to find out how mercilessly efficient Louis is in there. Joe doesn’t fall for any of the feints or tricks, he has seen them all before. Louis takes the centre of the ring and stalks Usyk, getting inside and landing short hard punches to the body. He breaks Usyk down and closes the show in the 7th with a blistering uppercut left hook combination.

James J Corbett - the rangy Gentleman Jim surprises Usyk but deftly timing and countering him, while building up a big points lead in the first half of the fight. Usyk changes his game plan in the 9th and starts to cut off the ring and not give Corbett a second to rest. His superior conditioning allows him to keep up a fierce pace against the visibly flagging Corbett who is pulled out by his corner after 12 rounds

John L Sullivan - opts to make the bout bare knuckle and not gloved. He opens up by roughing Usyk up on the inside and throwing his to the ground continually. Usyk get a second wind after the 8th, but he breaks his hand and John L takes full advantage, handing out a career limiting beating to the game Ukrainian.

James Figg - confuses Usyk by arriving and fighting with a short sword. Usyk shows great defence and movement to avoid the increasingly aggressive Figg. Despite a regular intake of brandy between rounds, Figg remains sober enough to finally catch Usyk and decapitate him while the referee was separating them from a clinch.

Ugg the Stone Age caveman. Causes mayhem at the weigh in by jumping out of a tree and attacking Usyk with a rock (a tactic later copied by Cassius Clay). At the fight, Ugg loses points for beating his chest and pointing his arse at Usyk. Usyk gamely tries to stay disciplined but become disheartened when Ugg bites his finger off in the third. A wild melee breaks out and the fight is called off after Ugg sucks Usyk’s eyeball out.

Joe Frazier.

Usyk would lose. Any relentless pressure fighter is going to bother a technician with limited power. Usyk has never fought a very hard hitting swarmer like Frazier that would be constantly on him for the entire duration of the fight and has the cardio levels to live with him in the 2nd half of the fight

Frazier is one of the few Heavyweights who could keep up with Usyk's workrate and gets stronger as the fight goes on and has some of the best stamina of all time for a Heavyweight. Frazier literrally had a bottomless tank.

Styles make fights an elite swarmer is always a tough style match up for a boxer unless he has stand out power to stop the swarmer coming forward which Usyk does not have.

And to the judges and the crowd the fight will also look like Frazier is the boss in there with him eating Usyk's weak punches with a giant grin on his face as he marches forward. Usyk would not have the power to make Frazier think and reset. Frazier would just keep coming and coming and coming and everything Frazier throws is gonna be felt, whether it lands, is blocked

Usyk likes space. But he would'nt have had pop in his punches to make Frazier give him that. Frazier would have been hiting Usyk on the hip, the arms, wherever there's target. He would have gave Usyk a full-blown dose of what Fury promised. The Ukrainian would be forced to fight on disagreeable terms.

Put it this way, it's agreed by most that a front foot pressure fighter called Derek Chisora came the closest to beating Usyk and Joe Frazier (also a front foot pressure fighter) is in another galaxy to Chisora, then Usyk Vs Frazier is only gonna go one way.

Honestly ? Usyk - Frazier is the type fight were Usyk would never be the same man again.

George Foreman

Usyk isn't beating young Slugger Foreman.

Ali didn't "Rope-a-Dope" because it was a strategy, it's because he realized he couldn't run away. If Ali can't, Usyk can't. Slugger Foreman would cut off the ring and throw everything he had at Usyk. First body shot from a prime Foreman would not see Usyk getting up.

https://youtu.be/ApQlzehYyfo

You think a guy like Usyk, who is known for not taken a good body shot could take that ?

Cmon...let's get real.

And he's never TKOing Foreman His chin was granite being knocked out once and fighting till his Mid 40s.....Prime Foreman by Murder.!!!

Riddick Bowe

Usyk is the massive overachiever while Bowe was the massive underachiever.

So this would be great match up.

If Chisora and Briedis can give Usyk headaches with their styles, I have no doubt that Riddick Bowe would not have any problem bettering their efforts by some distance. Usyk hates taking a bodyshot, Bowe loves giving a bodyshot, Usyk hates taking a uppercut, Bowe loves giving a uppercut. This is an incredibly tall order for Usyk.

I do see Uysk winning a couple of rounds there and there but Bowe (1992) is just too complete for Usyk and would get the late TKO or UD. However, I do give the edge to Usyk from 1995-96 against Bowe from the Golota fights as Bowe was a shell of the fighter from those 1992 days

But Bowe 92 ? Would control the center of the ring with his jab and land vicious uppercuts on the inside.

This would be a difficult fight for Usyk as Bowe is not just a big man but a big man with skills who knows what to do especially with the jab, uppercut, combinations and inside. Bowe beats Usyk, just like he beat Holyfield. Holyfield is every bit as skilled as Usyk, and hits harder and Bowe walked through him, I'd bet he would do the same with Usyk who hits like a girl (actually that's disrespectful and sexist let's just say Usyk is not a big enough puncher to hurt most big heavyweights)

Foreman was slow in the clips you showed. He had power but if you can not land it does not matter. George was over reliant on that power and later developed the jab and pacing himself when he came out of retirement.

Usyk has himself said he would love to have fought prime Foreman because it would give him a challenge. Usyk is a wizard in the ring.

Bowe was superb when he fought Holyfield in their first fight. He knew how to use his reach and height and agree with you that would have been too difficult to Ukrainian.

This could be your best ever thread Master. Easy mind as your others have all been shite.

Please give us more of these prediction threads for how fighter x would do against a series of greats.

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master

Foreman was slow in the clips you showed. He had power but if you can not land it does not matter. George was over reliant on that power and later developed the jab and pacing himself when he came out of retirement.

Usyk has himself said he would love to have fought prime Foreman because it would give him a challenge. Usyk is a wizard in the ring.

Bowe was superb when he fought Holyfield in their first fight. He knew how to use his reach and height and agree with you that would have been too difficult to Ukrainian.

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You could be right. I could be wrong. Usyk may have beaten Foreman. I don't totally rule that out. But I don't see it at all.

I think Frazier and Tyson would be the most difficult fights for Usyk of those fighters listed by Master.

Great thread topic and insights. Off the top I don't see Usyk beating Ali or Tyson but also see him very live with Foreman, just not sure he makes the bell. Mentally I think he can have a big advantage with young Foreman and with Usyk I think one of his major and maxed assets is his mental makeup and pure calculating execution of a game plan. The man has an unshakable drive and confidence off the charts. But can also see Holyfield giving him absolute hell in forced exchanges. I'm just not convinced Usyk stands in with the consistent combination punching and counters of Holyfield. Who himself imo has never gotten full credit for underrated pop often in combo capped with a quick left hook that has dented some of the very best big men and chins he faced. Usyk by no fault of his own has had a few things working against him overall and rightly receives some skeptics when the "all-time great" is immediately thrown out. Btw "great" imo is one of the most overused terms going today. The name and even language barrier let's just be honest. The tagline that has also sat over so many other cruisers coming up, "blown up heavy" etc. He's not a puncher and in the wider view of boxing fans outside of harder core fans he has sat in some anonymity of sorts. But the mere fact he's arrived in the conversation among the elite heavies in multiple eras is a testament to his measure. The man is special and has very much staked his claim as his eras best.