Welterweight division overall all-time best

I think that today's welterweights are overall the best of all time
I am refering to the overall level of skill.
What do you think?

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

Don't know.. Today is good though, that's for sure. early 80's would possibly be better.. SRL, Duran, hearns... i think that pretty much blows MAyweather Hatton or anyone else out of the water.

You've got a point, but i'll certainly watch the Welterweights over the heavies nowadays hands down

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Originally Posted by Britkid

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

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COOL CLICK! Awesome list!! You sure know your stuff! I've seen most of those guys in action(only been a fan for 2 years) but who is Jose Napoles and Carmen Basillo? Today's WW division is awesome and remember Cotto is joining at the end of the year.

77 to 85 IMO was the best era, of arguable boxing's best division; when the likes of Cuevas, Palomino, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Curry, McCrory and Starling shone ;)

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Originally Posted by The Game

but who is Jose Napoles and Carmen Basillo? Today's WW division is awesome and remember Cotto is joining at the end of the year.

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Naoples was a great Cuban born Mexican Welterweight champ of the late 60's and 70's. The champion from 69 to 75, minus a meaningless cut eye defeat (before the no-contest rule, for cuts caused by headbutts), to Billy Backus; a defeat he quickly avenged.

He beat the best the division had to offer including Curtis Cokes (twice), Emile Griffith and Hedgemon Lewis.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009025

Carman Bassilo is probably best remembered for the series of fights he had at Middleweight against Ray Robinson. But he was probably at his best as a 147lber. Winning the World Title in 1955 against Tony DeMarco, his reign as Welterweight king was presonified in the excellent trilogy he had with Johnny Saxton, which he won 2/1.


http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=008997

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by The Game

but who is Jose Napoles and Carmen Basillo? Today's WW division is awesome and remember Cotto is joining at the end of the year.

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Naoples was a great Cuban born Mexican Welterweight champ of the late 60's and 70's. The champion from 69 to 75, minus a meaningless cut eye defeat (before the no-contest rule, for cuts caused by headbutts), to Billy Backus; a defeat he quickly avenged.

He beat the best the division had to offer including Curtis Cokes (twice), Emile Griffith and Hedgemon Lewis.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009025

Carman Bassilo is probably best remembered for the series of fights he had at Middleweight against Ray Robinson. But he was probably at his best as a 147lber. Winning the World Title in 1955 against Tony DeMarco, his reign as Welterweight king was presonified in the excellent trilogy he had with Johnny Saxton, which he won 2/1.


http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=008997

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I've seen a little of Napoles, a real class operator. The one fight I've seen of Carmen Bassilio he seemed to be in the same mould as Ricky Hatton or Corrales, always on top of his opponent and relentlessly punching nonstop. Seemed very entertaining I'd like to see more of him.

I always thought John Henry Armstrong was commonly regarded as the best ever welter though.........

Actually it was one of his fights with Saxton I've seen, a real tear up, Bassilio just wore him down.

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Originally Posted by bilbo

I always thought John Henry Armstrong was commonly regarded as the best ever welter though.........

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Ray Robinson was figuratively and literally untouchable as a 147lber. He met everyone that mattered, and as a Welterweight, left the division as undefeated Champion with a 110-1-2 record, his only defeat being to Middleweight Jake LaMotta.

Well to compare to the 80's era you would have
Sugar Ray Leonard vs PBF?
Ricky Hatton vs Tommy Hearns?( Battle of the hitmen)
Duran vs Margarito?
Who you see winning these 3?

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Originally Posted by cockey cockney

Well to compare to the 80's era you would have
Sugar Ray Leonard vs PBF?
Ricky Hatton vs Tommy Hearns?( Battle of the hitmen)
Duran vs Margarito?
Who you see winning these 3?

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Alot of people won't agree, but PBF beats SRL. One simple fact. Little Floyd is alot better, and more versatile than his dad. Floyd Sr. gave SRL alot of problems when they fought. IMO, little Floyd would do even better, and probably get a win. It would be a great fight, and those two might even split 5 to 5 out of ten fights. I'd say Floyd 6 out
of ten.

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Originally Posted by Britkid

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Basilio

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

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Also worthy of mention are Simon Brown, Mark Breland, Lloyd Honeyghan, Wilfred Benitez, Buddy McGirt. Personally I feel that Brown and Honeyghan were great ones, either inside the top 10 or just below.

I suppose that Aaron Davis and Meldrick Taylor are worthy of mention too, although Taylor spent most of his career at other weights, and Davis often had trouble making 147 lbs.

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Originally Posted by Britkid

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearnsl
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

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no benny loenard? >:mad >:mad >:mad

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Originally Posted by Britkid

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

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Id have to replace Trinidad with Whitaker.

Tito was magic, leave him where he is and kick Oscar off.

I like to think of SweetP "all time" as a lightweight, but when ranking him as a welter
I still think he cracks the top ten.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Don't know.. Today is good though, that's for sure. early 80's would possibly be better.. SRL, Duran, hearns... i think that pretty much blows MAyweather Hatton or anyone else out of the water.

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I agree though I think that Mayweather at least could have beaten any of those guys.

You think Mayweather would have beaten SRL or Hearns? I don't see it happening at all. Noone today at welter could, or in the last few years. prime DLH would have the best chance but would still come up short IMO Hearns and SRL are easily the best welters in a long time and yet to be surpassed.

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Originally Posted by SalTheButcher

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Originally Posted by Britkid

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearnsl
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

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no benny loenard? >:mad >:mad >:mad

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No, he was a 135lber ;)

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Originally Posted by mokele

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Originally Posted by Britkid

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Basilio

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, ‘Mysterious’ Billy Smith, ‘The original’ Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny ‘Kid’ Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

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Also worthy of mention are Simon Brown, Mark Breland, Lloyd Honeyghan, Wilfred Benitez, Buddy McGirt. Personally I feel that Brown and Honeyghan were great ones, either inside the top 10 or just below.

I suppose that Aaron Davis and Meldrick Taylor are worthy of mention too, although Taylor spent most of his career at other weights, and Davis often had trouble making 147 lbs.

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Brown and Honeyghan lacked the longevity to be put on the list. Breland was too flaky; McGirt, was unlucky to be around with Whitaker. Benitez is top 10 140 and 154lber, but although he beat Palomino, all everyone remembers about him is losing to SRL.

Davis is little more than an adequate alphabet champ IMO. Taylor was shot by the time he got up to 147lbs.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

You think Mayweather would have beaten SRL or Hearns? I don't see it happening at all. Noone today at welter could, or in the last few years. prime DLH would have the best chance but would still come up short IMO Hearns and SRL are easily the best welters in a long time and yet to be surpassed.

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In my opinion, it's hard to favor anybody head to head against Hearns at welterweight. Leonard beat him but it took a miraculous effort to do it way behind on points and with a badly swollen eye. Hearns was a physical marvel, a rangy, small-boned guy with broad shoulders, a wide variety of punches, a great jab and a big overhand right. I have yet to see anyone who would have had much of any chance at all of outpointing him at 147 lbs. Maybe another very tall welterweight such as Mark Breland or Maurice "the thin man" Blocker would have stood a slight chance. In order to beat Tommy Hearns you had to knock him out.

I know that Floyd Mayweather Jr. is fast, but Hearns had a 78" reach. Picture Antonio Margarito, add 2" in height, make him faster, give him a better jab and overhand right and you're close to the offensive fighter that Hearns was. If Hearns had the chin of Marvin Hagler he would have been the greatest fighter who ever lived.

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Originally Posted by mokele

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Originally Posted by p4pking

You think Mayweather would have beaten SRL or Hearns? I don't see it happening at all. Noone today at welter could, or in the last few years. prime DLH would have the best chance but would still come up short IMO Hearns and SRL are easily the best welters in a long time and yet to be surpassed.

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In my opinion, it's hard to favor anybody head to head against Hearns at welterweight. Leonard beat him but it took a miraculous effort to do it way behind on points and with a badly swollen eye. Hearns was a physical marvel, a rangy, small-boned guy with broad shoulders, a wide variety of punches, a great jab and a big overhand right. I have yet to see anyone who would have had much of any chance at all of outpointing him at 147 lbs. Maybe another very tall welterweight such as Mark Breland or Maurice "the thin man" Blocker would have stood a slight chance. In order to beat Tommy Hearns you had to knock him out.

I know that Floyd Mayweather Jr. is fast, but Hearns had a 78" reach. Picture Antonio Margarito, add 2" in height, make him faster, give him a better jab and overhand right and you're close to the offensive fighter that Hearns was. If Hearns had the chin of Marvin Hagler he would have been the greatest fighter who ever lived.

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Agree with u totally there mokele, I dont see anyone from today beatin Hearns. Noone beats SRL or Duran for my money either. No matter what you say about Floyd being quicker etc. SRL was just one of those fighters when you watch, you always know he'll win, somehow. And Duran IMO is one of the best P4P all time, noone of today touches him.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Don't know.. Today is good though, that's for sure. early 80's would possibly be better.. SRL, Duran, hearns... i think that pretty much blows MAyweather Hatton or anyone else out of the water.

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I agree though I think that Mayweather at least could have beaten any of those guys.

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Mayweather wouldnt be able to beat SRL, Hearns or Duran IMO.

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Originally Posted by mokele

In my opinion, it's hard to favor anybody head to head against Hearns at welterweight. Leonard beat him but it took a miraculous effort to do it way behind on points and with a badly swollen eye. Hearns was a physical marvel, a rangy, small-boned guy with broad shoulders, a wide variety of punches, a great jab and a big overhand right. I have yet to see anyone who would have had much of any chance at all of outpointing him at 147 lbs. Maybe another very tall welterweight such as Mark Breland or Maurice "the thin man" Blocker would have stood a slight chance. In order to beat Tommy Hearns you had to knock him out.

I know that Floyd Mayweather Jr. is fast, but Hearns had a 78" reach. Picture Antonio Margarito, add 2" in height, make him faster, give him a better jab and overhand right and you're close to the offensive fighter that Hearns was. If Hearns had the chin of Marvin Hagler he would have been the greatest fighter who ever lived.

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Spot on, Mokele - Hearns was truly an awesome fighting machine.

I think PBF would do well, he has all the punches and defense in the book, and like SRL
he has the ability to adapt to whatever his opponents throw at him (with the exception
of the castillo fight, which was a fluke bad performance IMO)
I give Mayweather full credit UD vs Hearns

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Originally Posted by killersheep

I give Mayweather full credit UD vs Hearns

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Go back and watch 147lbs Hearns, Mayweather is made to measure for The Hitman. Lil Floyd lacks the tools to get past that jab, and sooner or later a right hand will find Mayweather's chin.

He will probably last a lot longer than Cuevas, but in the end, I foresee a similar type of KO for the Motor City Cobra. ;)

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Originally Posted by Britkid

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Originally Posted by killersheep

I give Mayweather full credit UD vs Hearns

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Go back and watch 147lbs Hearns, Mayweather is made to measure for The Hitman. Lil Floyd lacks the tools to get past that jab, and sooner or later a right hand will find Mayweather's chin.

He will probably last a lot longer than Cuevas, but in the end, I foresee a similar type of KO for the Motor City Cobra. ;)

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I agree... Hearns is something else. If only he had a chin! Imagine that.

Britkid, what do you think of the up and comer Paul Williams. Good speed and power, good boxing skills (still a little raw), 6'1, 147lbs, and a southpaw! 28-0 at the moment, and I think he's top 15 right now. Think he might have the tools to cause some trouble in welterweight a little down the road?