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The Environmental Thread
I chose not to call it Climate Change, because I know that turns off a lot of people. Environmental is more broad and encompasses other things, such as pollution, deforestation, and the like.
Whether you think Climate Change is real or not..... if you think it's real, then whether it's man-made or not (0 to 100% or somewhere in between).... whether you think climate scientists are full of shit or not...... it's a topic that's not going away any time soon.
This is already many months old, but I just saw it on Facebook.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99AwWQ-M2_M
Now, normally... I don't like actors (or politicians) talking about something they're not trained or educated enough to discuss. But I have no issues with Harrison's speech. Well.... one issue. He fails to talk about pollution. But everything else is ok.
He.....
1. Doesn't limit the problem to the U.S., but talks about other countries and their roles as well.
2. Concentrates on hot spots like the Amazon (deforestation), as well as the destruction of wetlands and other ecologically sensitive systems.
3. Doesn't single out anybody, but does point fingers at those in power who choose to ignore science.
4. Is obviously passionate about the topic.
My own opinion. I think Climate Change is real (can personally attest to the increasing frequency of mega-powerful hurricanes). I think part of it is a natural cyclic behavior, but do not discount the role of man. I can't assign percentages to it, since I'm not a climate scientist, but both are factors. I don't believe there is a conspiracy between climate scientists to create panic among humanity to pursue some sinister motive. They're scientists, trained in their field, and I see no purpose in believing that global temperature data is being faked, fudged, or anything of the sort. At the same time, I frown at doomsayers who claim we'll all be underwater in 50 years or so. So it's a balancing act. It's knowing who to believe and what to discard as nonsense.
However, deforestation in other countries is a very real threat. The notion that mankind isn't powerful enough to disrupt nature in any way is, IMO..... untrue. We can and we ARE disrupting nature by destroying swaths of Amazonian forests, destroying valuable wetlands for the sake of urban development, and other reckless actions.
A controversial topic to be sure, but one that deserves honest discussion.
BTW, Harrison is getting up there in age isn't he.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
I do not know if you know that we are having peaceful protesters over here causing some disruption. I have every sympathy for them. I think we all need to do more.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47987891
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
If only because it brings the cause to the forefront of people's minds, peaceful protests are fine and even useful to a point. I think we all need to do more also. It's a matter of maintaining focus on the important issues. It's also important to not run and hide in the usual bunkers. People become defensive when talking about issues like this, because they feel their ideals and own beliefs are being somehow threatened or challenged. If only people would open their minds and remain objective when discussing things that could potentially affect not only all of us, but our children and grandchildren, we'd be more productive as a society. But every attempt at talking about this is met with political backlash and the usual nonsense.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.
This is a very common response, and no disrespect, but this does not sound like your reasoned argument Miles, more like you you repeating something that protects the planets very richest who are responsible for 50% of lifestyle emissions and the very greedy valueless form of capitalism for the last 50 yrs. The facts simply do not support the blame the 3rd world excuse, which is a particularly morally redundant bit of blame shifting if we are going to be honest. Anything to deflect from those responsible having to make the real changes to make a difference. The environment can recover but many of us will have to live very different lives and stop the religious adherence to a system that values nothing but the hoarding of personal wealth. The 'less developed' world has more than enough resources to feed itself but for there is much here in the west that can be done to achieve the same results. The USA could feed more than 400 million people if they consumed what they currently export for example. Childless couples go on way more foreign holidays by plane, often run more environmentally damaging vehicles and generally live a more self centered and environmentally damaging lifestyle. It's a inconvenient fact because you don't get to blame what Trump would call 'shithole' countries and pretend that you can IQ test you way to salvation. You have been sold a crock of shite by a bunch of cunts who not only stole the pot of gold at the end but would not give a shit about stealing the Rainbow that led to it.
Much like the British and Americans being largely responsible for the nurturing and export of the Saudi based warped violent extremist version of Islam around the world, the promotion of an oil based economy to feed that monster is one of the reasons they continue to fight tooth and nail to maintain the ignorant belief system that most of the non-religious west slavishly follows like sheep without question.
We can't carry on living in denial.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Look at the population of the UK over the past 200 years alone. It's mental, then you expand it globally and it is insanity. The countries that produce massive amounts of pollution today are China and India and their populations are crazy. India and large parts of China are still poor, so not just a rich mans game. The US is strangely excessive and I can only assume the people pass wind a lot. As other countries 'develop' they too produce more pollution too. And then when such countries are overpopulated where do they seek to go? To the countries that produce the most emissions.
If you want people to use less plastic the best way is to have less people. It is common sense.
I will not change my lifestyle as I don't think it is an excessive one and certainly nothing compared to a person with half a dozen children or even a few children in the West. I shall eat beef, use my AC, and drive with Springsteen on the radio. I have no guilt about it really. I compromise by seldom using any heat in the winter as I don't feel the cold. You will never see me on a business class flight (or even many flights), or performing a world tour with the latest technology to hide my lack of tunes, or driving a formula one racing car, or live in Dubai with the AC cranked up while people use inside ski slopes. It's up to everyone else what they do, but I am not terribly greedy really. Only do what I need to do in the here and now. Almost monk like in some ways really.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.
This is a very common response, and no disrespect, but this does not sound like your reasoned argument Miles, more like you you repeating something that protects the planets very richest who are responsible for 50% of lifestyle emissions and the very greedy valueless form of capitalism for the last 50 yrs. The facts simply do not support the blame the 3rd world excuse, which is a particularly morally redundant bit of blame shifting if we are going to be honest. Anything to deflect from those responsible having to make the real changes to make a difference. The environment can recover but many of us will have to live very different lives and stop the religious adherence to a system that values nothing but the hoarding of personal wealth. The 'less developed' world has more than enough resources to feed itself but for there is much here in the west that can be done to achieve the same results. The USA could feed more than 400 million people if they consumed what they currently export for example. Childless couples go on way more foreign holidays by plane, often run more environmentally damaging vehicles and generally live a more self centered and environmentally damaging lifestyle. It's a inconvenient fact because you don't get to blame what Trump would call 'shithole' countries and pretend that you can IQ test you way to salvation. You have been sold a crock of shite by a bunch of cunts who not only stole the pot of gold at the end but would not give a shit about stealing the Rainbow that led to it.
Much like the British and Americans being largely responsible for the nurturing and export of the Saudi based warped violent extremist version of Islam around the world, the promotion of an oil based economy to feed that monster is one of the reasons they continue to fight tooth and nail to maintain the ignorant belief system that most of the non-religious west slavishly follows like sheep without question.
We can't carry on living in denial.
I'll chime in by saying we can't responsibly look after the planet's resources while ignoring the population explosion factor.
Here's the key. It's a global problem. Not solely the responsibility of the U.S. or any other superpower. Efforts must be made globally. At the same time we're developing new technologies to grow crops without depending on traditional methods... at the same time we're looking inward to our own developed countries to see how to better protect the environment... at the same time we're doing all this research for better planned cities and the like.... we also need to assign responsibilities to less developed countries and cultures as well. Just because let's say, China, previously lagged behind in industrialization and development, it doesn't mean they should be given carte blanche to catch up and even pass the rest of the world by..... without giving one iota to the environmental concerns of the world. It's like Harrison Ford said in his speech. We can put solar panels in every home in the U.S., and switch every car in the U.S. to electric power. It still doesn't alleviate the problem of deforestation in the Amazon basin, or the destruction of wetlands in other parts of the world.
You see... the problem is that we're at a certain stage in standard of living.... but other countries are desperately trying to catch up. The quintessential image of the indigenous tribal child playing with his smart phone in the village is the typical picture of the world's encroachment on the less developed. Once they taste that style of living, they're not going to be willing to listen to the importance of maintaining the jungles and rain forests.
So while saying overpopulation by itself may sound simplistic and copy-pasted.... it's a very real problem. Why not educate tribal peoples in Africa that having 15 children per family does no one any good? I see no harm in that. Times have changed. We must change with the times.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Look at the population of the UK over the past 200 years alone. It's mental, then you expand it globally and it is insanity. The countries that produce massive amounts of pollution today are China and India and their populations are crazy. India and large parts of China are still poor, so not just a rich mans game. The US is strangely excessive and I can only assume the people pass wind a lot. As other countries 'develop' they too produce more pollution too. And then when such countries are overpopulated where do they seek to go? To the countries that produce the most emissions.
If you want people to use less plastic the best way is to have less people. It is common sense.
I will not change my lifestyle as I don't think it is an excessive one and certainly nothing compared to a person with half a dozen children or even a few children in the West. I shall eat beef, use my AC, and drive with Springsteen on the radio. I have no guilt about it really. I compromise by seldom using any heat in the winter as I don't feel the cold. You will never see me on a business class flight (or even many flights), or performing a world tour with the latest technology to hide my lack of tunes, or driving a formula one racing car, or live in Dubai with the AC cranked up while people use inside ski slopes. It's up to everyone else what they do, but I am not terribly greedy really. Only do what I need to do in the here and now. Almost monk like in some ways really.
All thats left is either a vow of silence or lighting yourself on fire.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
The protesters in London are typical privileged cunts. Hypocrites. This gives them the chance to play the victim. "We're the last generation, we've had our future stolen" (sickening).
Every era in history has been littered with complete and utter cunts who believe everything begins and ends with them.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Big fan of the Environment. More pissed off that they killed Solo off like that though. Mid 50's in the deep South tonight. Not normal.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Big fan of the Environment. More pissed off that they killed Solo off like that though. Mid 50's in the deep South tonight. Not normal.
What is the normal temp. We had a deep freeze winter I’ll tell you that, no joke up here.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Big fan of the Environment. More pissed off that they killed Solo off like that though. Mid 50's in the deep South tonight. Not normal.
What is the normal temp. We had a deep freeze winter I’ll tell you that, no joke up here.
We were hitting near 81 this time last year. It's been a very erratic weather pattern. Not that I'm in a rush for the devils front porch humidity we see, just wish it would make it's mind up.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
The protesters in London are typical privileged cunts. Hypocrites. This gives them the chance to play the victim. "We're the last generation, we've had our future stolen" (sickening).
Every era in history has been littered with complete and utter cunts who believe everything begins and ends with them.
Yeah obviously all of them. From the kids to the grannies its all down to some bloke in a hut in Africa anyway ;D
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
The protesters in London are typical privileged cunts. Hypocrites. This gives them the chance to play the victim. "We're the last generation, we've had our future stolen" (sickening).
Every era in history has been littered with complete and utter cunts who believe everything begins and ends with them.
Yeah obviously all of them. From the kids to the grannies its all down to some bloke in a hut in Africa anyway ;D
Look at the population of India where the majority defacate in the streets. It is far more than some bloke in a hut. The Ganges is a horrible mess and disease rampant. It is far more than greenhouse emissions. Mass overpopulation is a real problem and is going to get much worse. It is something some people are in denial about.
http://theconversation.com/ganges-se...r-worse-108146
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
The protesters in London are typical privileged cunts. Hypocrites. This gives them the chance to play the victim. "We're the last generation, we've had our future stolen" (sickening).
Every era in history has been littered with complete and utter cunts who believe everything begins and ends with them.
Yeah obviously all of them. From the kids to the grannies its all down to some bloke in a hut in Africa anyway ;D
Sorry I forgot Lyle's favourite - #notall.
It's more white than a Tommy Robinson shindig. I just can't stand the hypocrisy (the litter they've left behind/gadgets/travelling in cars, trains and planes), they're enjoying themselves playing victim and causing trouble, holier-than-thou usual suspects who'll eff-off back to their 99.9% white middle-class lives.
It's not the message I have a problem with just the people (they'll be at Glastonbury and fly off to Malawi/Goa for a holiday).
If it was thousands of bods living in mud huts who were genuinely suffering i'd roar them on.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Without too much (read any) data gathering I've formed the opinion that it's too late to save the planet. We keep getting warning shots that something big is going to happen and I don't think anyone would be surprised if it was lurking just around the corner.
There are too many of us. We all want feeding and it's feeding us that causes the biggest problems. Land for meat to live, land to grow food to feed the meat, land for oil (take your pick of what kind). Do a search on what causes deforestation and you'll be hit by lots of results saying logging is the 2nd biggest cause. Weird result, just tell, me whats actually the problem.
We'll be wiped off the Earth sooner rather than later and the Earth will go on to maybe repair the damage, or limp on until it's death once we are long gone.
We can and should all do our bit of course and I'd like to think we do. But it isn't Joe Bloggs forgetting to put his recycling out and then thinking fuck it, I'm burning it out the back that's causing the grief is it. Asking Joe Bloggs if he fancies trying recycled shit paper is one thing. Asking Johnny Boardroom if he fancies stopping making billions upon billions of quids is quite another.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
That's what makes me laugh with this mob, the UK is apparently one of the best gaffs in the world for this environment lark. As though causing uproar here will make a jot of difference to China, Russia or India.
And now some rich, privileged Swedish teenager hopping the wag is the new messiah. Do me a favour.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
I don't know. There is still cling film on everything. Why do they do that horrible multi pack stuff with each tiny item individually wrapped too? Then there is the congestion which is worse than ever. Then there is the fact that the UK has almost no trees. My wife mocks me about that when I talk about the Village greens and the open fields: "But there are no trees!" I wince conceding that she is correct and we cut them all down and never replaced them. Plus the people are fat and eat too much. One has no excuse to be fat. Very unsound.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
https://www.rd.com/health/wellness/f...using-plastic/
Ya I know the link is from the readers digest but when you try to look up the the effects of plastic I come across too many “we are all going to die from plastic” articles but there are a lot of studies coming out about the harm plastic does not just to the planet and fishy’s but to us. It is a nasty substance but it’s very difficult not to use it. When your out and about it can be difficult to find a drink not surrounded by plastic. Sometimes you can find a can. All my healthy juices are sorrounded by plastic. Even the plastics with BPA contain other shit that kills you, or is at least unhealthy. I often wonder how many mass adopted items we use cause harm but are such a major part of the economy nothing will be done about it. Microwaves are a good thing but a scientist at my wife’s job will not use one as he says using a microwave causes a change in the molecular structure of the respective foods we put in. Our water supply is loaded with anti biotics and anti depressants, I have hang nail, when it comes right down to it we are doomed. I’d like to say let’s clean stuff up for the future generation but fuck them the baby boomers left us this mess I’m not cleaning up after them. And I’m typing this on my phone made of plastic.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Millennials need to quit their fucking whining. ;D
Seriously... we're not going to abolish plastic tomorrow or any time in the foreseeable future. We've become too dependent on it. What we need to do is parallel efforts to: a) reduce the amount of plastics used in manufacturing, and b) continue to find ways to effectively recycle plastic into things we need.
The (a) part involves things like reducing the thickness of water bottles (already at an annoying "thinness"), rethink how we do our packaging, and just plain use our engineering know-how to lessen the amounts of plastic being manufactured for everyday things. The (b) part is even more exciting, and we've all read about road-building technologies in places like India and Indonesia, where asphalt is substituted with some kind of aggregate using recycled plastic to make roads. These roads are reportedly better and cheaper. As usual, the holdup is always the bureaucratic part of the whole affair.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Millennials need to quit their fucking whining. ;D
Seriously... we're not going to abolish plastic tomorrow or any time in the foreseeable future. We've become too dependent on it. What we need to do is parallel efforts to: a) reduce the amount of plastics used in manufacturing, and b) continue to find ways to effectively recycle plastic into things we need.
The (a) part involves things like reducing the thickness of water bottles (already at an annoying "thinness"), rethink how we do our packaging, and just plain use our engineering know-how to lessen the amounts of plastic being manufactured for everyday things. The (b) part is even more exciting, and we've all read about road-building technologies in places like India and Indonesia, where asphalt is substituted with some kind of aggregate using recycled plastic to make roads. These roads are reportedly better and cheaper. As usual, the holdup is always the bureaucratic part of the whole affair.
Exactly nothing will change, but we will see silly things like banning straws come into effect and meanwhile the global population will double. Much of this plastic and sewage ends up in rivers and oceans and our own water supplies. It is very harmful. I don't eat seafood, so I don't really care about it from that angle, but I don't think it is fair to destroy ocean life because of our awful methods of production and waste evacuation.
Also, I was hearing that birds are dying because they fly into the reflections of trees on these shiny new steel skyscrapers. You didn't have this problem when we had beautiful Cathedrals and actual trees in urban areas.
Post Modernism is a stain in so many ways.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
It's ironic that the local recycling programs use huge bins made of plastic to put your plastics in for weekly collection :cwm13:. They still offer paper or plastic at the local grocery but often don't have paper bags or try to charge you a fee to purchase one of those clothe bags. In general we as consumers really do throw away so much garbage in the name of packaging and branding-labels. Someone needs to invent basic 'melters' or compactors purchased for the home, cube your own pure plastics and turn in for exchange with financial incentive. It's like can and aluminum recycling when we were kids. It was so massive and we'd always take an hour or two to go 'hunting cans' and run to the store to collect a few bucks. Schools actually organized events and drop offs. We even had plastic drop offs and would cut up the binders that held 6 packs together. Kids are to busy on their tablets and phones now to go develop an early understanding of turning everyday trash into profits. Little shats don't even catch lizards or put baseball cards in their spokes anymore :-X.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
That's what makes me laugh with this mob, the UK is apparently one of the best gaffs in the world for this environment lark. As though causing uproar here will make a jot of difference to China, Russia or India.
And now some rich, privileged Swedish teenager hopping the wag is the new messiah. Do me a favour.
You may find this interesting
http://www.theartofannihilation.com/...gCiQ0AAEo_ow5g
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.
So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?:rolleyes:
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.
So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?:rolleyes:
People can take Viagra all they like. I just think the more people there are the more resources will be consumed and thus the environment will continue to suffer. There will come a tipping point from which we won't return. It won't be the end of the world and those with resources will be fine, but it will be serious suffering for billions. I am not sure it is worth it when you can just have less children. However, people won't change and thus the consequences will be what they will be.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
You are in denial, Beanz.
Maybe you will have to change, but me not so much. Africa will have to change. Families will have to change. And the environment will continue to corrode regardless as nothingof significance is being done to stop it.
BTW, if you take issue with any of my assertions don't just make things up. Back up what you say to prove me otherwise. Otherwise it looks like you cannot handle debate.
I feel no guilt or responsibility. It isn't me lacking empathy for the planet by being morally feckless.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
There are so many made up arguments that I will simply leave it at that. You say I try to make you look stupid, but you do that on your own. You live in fantasy land and you know it. 'All black families have been abandoned by their mothers' is a case in point. You twist and exaggerate and it is almost like you cannot help yourself. Stop making things up. See, you lie all the time. There is just so much wrong with your post that I refuse to even give you the air.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.
Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
They cannot starve because Beanz said food is plentiful.
Actually they do starve and it is because the food is not plentiful and there is overpopulation. The logic if my child starved to death would be to not bother having children I know I cannot provide for. Your logic makes children sound like an insurance policy and something to be used. This is a selfish motivation.
The least able have the most children and people like Beanz suggest that this is okay and that everything else must change. Wrong. They must pay the price for own actions just like anyone else. Words are words, but the act of producing children you cannot raise is an action. An appalling action. They must stay where they are as they have no right to go anywhere else.
Actions do indeed have consequences and they must change. Europeans have changed, now it is Africa that needs to display the same attitudes. However, we all know what the EU and UN thinks should be the solution.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.
Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.
Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Well said, Tito. I am all for people becoming parents as long as they consider the implications of what they are doing and know they have the means to do so. I have plenty of friends who are parents and the most is two. I am hardly going around berating them as they are intelligent people who have the means of raising their children and do an excellent job. There is simply no justification for 6 or 7 children. I understand it in the animal kingdom. I had my cat operated on so she cannot have children (eugenics yay!), but if she was out there in nature she would be having dozens of babies. I like to think that human beings actually do have the ability to be conscious of their actions and to consider the impact they are having. Isn't that ability what separates us from being animals who just want to eat, sleep, and reproduce? It really is not difficult to not have dozen children and it really is selfish to do so if you have no resources. Having 10 more children does not automatically lead to 10 more available jobs. Mechanisation is taking away many of the most menial jobs and over time more and more people will become obsolete and yet there will be billions more people on a planet even more exploited. It simply cannot end well.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Overpopulation, particularly in some areas of the world, is a real problem. It's just not a politically-correct problem to mention. It's much more PC to blame other things, such as the imbalance of haves and have-nots in the world. Unfortunately... none of this serves to resolve the very real issues of world hunger, sickness, and abject poverty that comes with uncontrolled births in a society that can barely afford to feed the people already there. Babies and kids suffer from malnutrition, disease plagues, and subhuman conditions all around. What to do about this? Celebrity picture-taking with tribal kids might work in some circles... but it's not the answer. Real solutions need rolled-up sleeves and the willingness to tackle the problem from ALL angles, not just the politically-correct ones.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlimTrae
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Overpopulation. You cannot double a population every few decades and expect infinite benefits.
So does this mean your anti-Viagra, Cialis?:rolleyes:
People can take Viagra all they like. I just think the more people there are the more resources will be consumed and thus the environment will continue to suffer. There will come a tipping point from which we won't return. It won't be the end of the world and those with resources will be fine, but it will be serious suffering for billions. I am not sure it is worth it when you can just have less children. However, people won't change and thus the consequences will be what they will be.
Gotcha! Just thought with all those boners, leads to the act of babymaking!;D
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.
Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.
Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.
I agree education, contraception and better choices should be made but pointing out that these are the reasons why it happens.
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Re: The Environmental Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.
Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.
God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.
Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.
Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.
I agree education, contraception and better choices should be made but pointing out that these are the reasons why it happens.
I'm not being unsympathetic with the plight of these countries with exploding populations and nothing to offer them. None of us can truly know what it's like to be born into such conditions. But I believe it's all of our collective responsibility to try and help resolve some of these issues. Not only because of humanitarian reasons, but because we all share the same Earth and all its resources. I also realize talking to a village woman about contraception is going to fall on deaf or non-comprehensive ears. But that doesn't change or erase the fact that babies are being pumped out at disproportionate rates in the very areas that can afford them the least. All I'm saying is... it's easy to sit back and criticize others for mentioning the raw facts (not saying you're doing it) while claiming some higher moral ground. It's a way of putting on blinders and prancing off to the next issue.
