Jack Dempsey's Jolt

Hello,

I am reading Jack Dempsey's book on prize fighting. There he discusses the technique for a knock-out jolt.
The formula is this

1.Set body weight in explosive motion
2.Form a power-line with the punching arm
3. Convey the moving body-weight by exploding against your opponent.

The problem for me is that he suggests no use of the rear (right) leg in his falling step:

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Stand in the middle of the floor. Point your left foot at any distant object in the room. Place your right foot to the rear and slightly to the right of your left foot. Let your arms dangle loosely at your sides; you won't need to use them in the step. Bend your knees slightly. Bend your body forward slightly as you shift your weight forward onto your left foot, so that your right foot is resting only lightly on the ball of the foot. Remember that the knees are still slightly bent. Teeter up and down easily (half-bouncing without leaving the floor) to make certain you're in a comfortable, balanced position. If your position does not feel balanced and comfortable, move your right foot about slightly- but not much-to get a better balance as you teeter. You are resting only lightly on the ball of your right foot, remember. Stop teetering, but keep the knees slightly bent and your arms at your side.

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Now-without any preliminary movement-take a long, quick step forward with your left foot, toward the object at which your left toe had been pointing (Figure 4). I emphasize: NO PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT BEFORE THE STEP.

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However when I look at examples of fighters with a solid jab like Cotto and SRL I see somewhat different technique: they clearly transfer weight on the rear leg AFTER the step with the left, then push hard with the rear leg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/100...owerjab001.gif

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5...nardjab001.gif

Also, watching Jack Dempsey's fights, I cannot find any even slightest resemblance of the technique he describes. ANybody can help with this!

There are number of things in Dempsey's book that aren't explained as well as they could be; on the other hand there are some things that make a great deal of sense. In general, you don't want to shift the weight onto your front foot when you jab; sure you get more pop on it that way, but it plants you in one place (making you vulnerable to counters) and it makes your right hand follow -up a two part process. Because your have to rock your weight back, then forward, to throw a proper right hand.
The 'power' in that move, like the Cotto clip you posted demonstrates, comes from the right foot propelling your weight forward. This also encourages you to bring it along with you, which makes it easier to throw follow-up punches, or to move away afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqieQiJD608

Is this what you mean?

That video on Dempsey falling step is poor. I commented under that video on you tube awhile back. As somebody that references Dempseys book a lot. You need to read it all from front to back. As the information is a little spread out..He clearly states the difference between the jolt using a falling step(or trigger step) and a jab. He argues why the jolt is better than the jab and how modern boxers are becoming reliant on the jab. The jolt done properly with the left or right hand is a knock out punch, a jab is not a knock out punch.

As somebody that uses the trigger step with a jolt and a normal jab without the falling step. I can tell you they are completely different punches and need different techniques. You can add a falling step to an jab. But its not as good and the balance is slightly wrong. I would not recommend it. Largely down to the fact, if you want to throw a powerful jab without a falling step, not only do you need to pivot on your left front foot, but also pivot correctly on your rear right foot. If you don't pivot on your right foot correctly, your balance will be out. You will try and compensate and you wont be able to throw any powerful follow up punches. I would use the jab without a falling step, and use the jolt as Dempsey says with a falling step.

Remember Dempsey say Preliminary movement of right foot. Which mean do not move your right foot before the left. He tells you to rest lightly on the ball of your right foot. By move your right foot he means from that position( not and inch backwards, forwards, sideways) but upwards onto your ball is fine. When you start the trigger step you move off with your left foot pushed(triggered) by the right foot leg. Then you can move your right foot forward to recover your balance. This is hard to explain. And really does require a lot of practice.

Ok ok, i'll copy and paste the relevant bits from Dempseys book.

"5. Failure to teach the FALLING STEP ("trigger step") for straight punching has resulted in the LEFT JAB being used generally as a light,auxiliary weapon for making openings and "setting up," instead of as a stunning blow."

"Now-without any preliminary movement-take a long, quick step forward with your left foot, toward the object at which your left toe had beenpointing (Figure 4). I emphasize: NO PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT BEFORE THE STEP.You unquestionably will be tempted to shift some of the weight from the left foot to the right foot just before you step. But don't do it. Donothing with the right foot, which is resting lightly on its ball, NO PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT! Just lift the left foot and LET THE BODY FALLFORWARD IN A LONG, QUICK STEP. The left foot should land flat and solid on the floor at the end of the step.It is a quick, convulsive and extremely awkward step. Yet, it's one of the most important steps of your fistic life; for that falling-forward lurch isthe rough diamond out of which will be ground the beautiful, straight knockout jolt. It's the gem-movement of straight punching.Try that falling step many times. Make certain, each time, that you start from a comfortably balanced position, that the body-weight is restinglargely on the left leg, that the knees are slightly bent, that the arms are at your side, and that you make no preliminary movement with the rightfoot.I call that forward lurch a "falling step." Actually, every step in walking involves a small "fall." Walking is a series of "falls." But in this particular step, the fall is exaggerated for two reasons: (1) your weight is well forward when you step off, and (2) the step is so long that it gives gravity achance to impart unusual momentum to your body-weight. The solidity with which your left foot landed upon the floor was caused by your momentum. The late Joe Gans rarely missed with a long, straight punch; but, when he did you could hear for half a block the smack of his leftsole on the canvas.Although the weight of your body was resting largely upon your left foot when you stepped off, you didn't fall to the floor. Why? Because thealert ball of your right foot came to the rescue frantically and gave your body a forward spring in a desperate attempt to keep your bodybalanced upright-to maintain its equilibrium. Your rescuing right foot acted not only as did the slope of the hill for the sledding boy, but also as aspringboard in the side of the hill might have functioned had the sledding boy whizzed onto a springboard on the side of the hill. The left footserves as a "trigger" to spring the right foot. So, the falling step sometimes is called the Trigger Step.I warned: DON'T MAKE A PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT before stepping off. Had you followed your natural inclination and shifted your weightto the right foot before stepping, that action would have started your body-weight moving backward-away from the direction in which youintended to step. Then you would have had to lose a split-second while your right foot was stopping the backward motion and shifting your weight forward again before the punching step could be taken.Learn now and remember always that in fighting you cannot afford to give your body the luxury of a useless preliminary or preparatorymovement before shooting a punch. In the first place, your target may be open for only a split-second, and you must take advantage of thatopening like a bolt of lightning. Secondly, preliminary movements are give-aways-"tell-tales"-"telegraphs"-that treacherously betray to your opponent your own next action.Joe Louis was knocked out in his first fight with Max Schmeling principally because tell-tale movements of Joe's left glove disclosed the factthat he was preparing to shoot a left jab. Schmeling timed Joe's telegraphs and smashed him again and again with straight rights to the head. "

"Herr Maxie smashed him every time that careless left hand beckoned.You now know how to set your weight into motion for a straight jolt-by means of the falling step. Next we must consider the second part of the jolt: CONVEYING THE MOVING BODY-WEIGHT AND EXPLODING IT AGAINST YOUR OPPONENT.However, before studying the movements in conveyance and explosion, it will be necessary for you to understand clearly the line of power that all successful conveyance and explosion must follow."

" I use the expression "left jolt" instead of "left jab" because I don't want you to confuse the type of straight left you will throw, with the futilestraight left or "jab" used by most current amateur and professional boxers. Most of them couldn't knock your hat off with their left jabs. Withtheir lefts, they tap, they slap, they flick, they paw, they "paint." Their jabs are used more to confuse than to stun.Their jabs are used as fluttering defensive flags to prevent their poorly instructed opponents from "getting set to punch." A good fighter doesn't have to "get set." He's always ready to punch. Some of them use their jabs merely to make openings for their rights. And that'sdangerously silly, for the proper brand of feinting would accomplish the same purpose. With but few exceptions, they do not use the left jab as asmashing jolt that can be an explosive weapon by itself-that can knock you down or knock you out.There are two reasons why the left jolt is a rarity in fighting today. First, nearly all current boxers launch their jabs with the non-step shoulder whirl. Secondly, nearly all have been fed the defensive hokum that it's less dangerous to try to tap an opponent with the left than to try to knockhim down with the left.Concerning that defensive hokum, let me say this: Any time you extend your left fist either for a tap or for an all-out punch, you're taking agamble on being nailed with a counter-punch. And the sap who uses "light stuff"-rapping, flicking, etc.-has his left hand extended much moreoften than the explosive left-jolter, who doesn't waste punches-doesn't shoot until he has feinted or forced his opponent into an opening. It's truethat you can "recover" your balance more quickly after missing a tap than after missing a hard punch. But it's also true that an opponent who isdefending only against taps and slaps will be much more alert to counter than will an opponent who is being bombed.My advice to all beginners is this: Use a light left jab only in one instance-in the so-called one-two punch- when your left fist strikes the opponent's forehead to tip his head back, so that your immediately following straight right can nail him on the chin."

Really as he says. The Striaght jolt using the falling step needs practice and then some more practice. It is not one of the easier punches to learn. But when you do learn to use it. It is a powerful technique. After the left foot has fallen foward and you've pushed with the ball of your right foot. It is fine to bring the root foot forward, which is the point Dempsey is making when he mentions the boy on the sledge and the spring board,Shoots forward. To anchor yourself and reset balance.

In chapter 14 he explains Straight punches like jabs, using shoulder whirls, rotation from the shoulders down to your feet. He doesn't really explain to pivot correctly with your right foot. But if you goto a good gym, they will point that out. What you do with your right root when punching a left jab is very important for maximum power and balance.

Hope this helps. And doesn't add to the confusion!

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Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqieQiJD608

Is this what you mean?

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thanks for the reference, I will have a look what he has to say, but I am not a big fan of this expertboxing fellow

I've practiced bare knuckle (pre MoQ/old English style) boxing and martial arts for the last 35 years.

Yeah, I started at 10 and I'm a 45 year old old fuck now.... Errrrr at least I'm starting to kinda feel that way (still a teen upstairs in the head anyway ;D

Anyway, I recently got a piece of shit video camera and have just begun putting up video's on youtube.

I'll make you a vid of what the falling step is, methods of doing it, and how it's to be applied.

I've been planning on it, but I decided to start at the beginning, so so far, all I've put up are super basic stance video's....

(BASICS HOWEVER ARE KEY AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE GOOD AND BE ABLE TO SERIOUSLY DELIVER BONE BREAKING/CRUNCHING/FUCKING CRUSHING POWER.... YOU, AND BY THAT I MEAN ANYONE, SHOULD WORK THE PISS OUT OF THE.... BASICS. THAT IS REALLY WHERE IT'S AT)

But, I digress....

I will make it concise.

I will begin making it tomorrow 3/5/13

I should have it up tomorow af/noon or on Thursday sometime.

It will probably be spread out over several video's as I will not only go over Dempsey's version....

But also I will go over B.Lee's version called the "Straight Lead"... Which is essentially the same, but slightly different.

Both methods were based on works by Jim Driscoll "The straight left and how to cultivate it"....

As well as works by the legendary fencer Aldo Nadi.

(Western boxing IS after all based on fencing and so is Dempsey's/Lee's straight leads)

Both methods take PRACTICE and many will be discouraged at first.

Those who have learned the methods and stuck with them until the daylight began to reveal itself know now why they did.....

Those who never stuck with it and failed.... Can only dream.

Cheers!... I'll see what I can do.

Jake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JakobM

I've practiced bare knuckle (pre MoQ/old English style) boxing and martial arts for the last 35 years.

Yeah, I started at 10 and I'm a 45 year old old fuck now.... Errrrr at least I'm starting to kinda feel that way (still a teen upstairs in the head anyway ;D

Anyway, I recently got a piece of shit video camera and have just begun putting up video's on youtube.

I'll make you a vid of what the falling step is, methods of doing it, and how it's to be applied.

I've been planning on it, but I decided to start at the beginning, so so far, all I've put up are super basic stance video's....

(BASICS HOWEVER ARE KEY AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE GOOD AND BE ABLE TO SERIOUSLY DELIVER BONE BREAKING/CRUNCHING/FUCKING CRUSHING POWER.... YOU, AND BY THAT I MEAN ANYONE, SHOULD WORK THE PISS OUT OF THE.... BASICS. THAT IS REALLY WHERE IT'S AT)

But, I digress....

I will make it concise.

I will begin making it tomorrow 3/5/13

I should have it up tomorow af/noon or on Thursday sometime.

It will probably be spread out over several video's as I will not only go over Dempsey's version....

But also I will go over B.Lee's version called the "Straight Lead"... Which is essentially the same, but slightly different.

Both methods were based on works by Jim Driscoll "The straight left and how to cultivate it"....

As well as works by the legendary fencer Aldo Nadi.

(Western boxing IS after all based on fencing and so is Dempsey's/Lee's straight leads)

Both methods take PRACTICE and many will be discouraged at first.

Those who have learned the methods and stuck with them until the daylight began to reveal itself know now why they did.....

Those who never stuck with it and failed.... Can only dream.

Cheers!... I'll see what I can do.

Jake.

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Thanks for your reply! Looking forward to your contribution!

I really want to understand this technique, so to avoid misunderstanding, here is roughly how I used to practice the move over the last 3-4 months:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1...llingstept.gif

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to apply against a heavy bag yet, but I tried once on a wooden plate - it got broken pretty easily

In 1964, I trained under a man named Carmen Cursin. He was not only a friend of Jack Dempsey, but a trainer and sparing partner. He was among the last of the bare knuckle fighters also. I remember him talking about Jack Dempsey and the 'splinter punch'. the way he described it was that the entinre knockout punch depended on timing. Jack would set himself up directly in front of his opponent quickly, and then step forward driving his entire body behind a straight punch with the thumb upward. the energy behind the punch would slam through a denfense and would be aimed for the chin, lower jaw, --a knockout. I never tried it, but many of us have talked about it and keep saying we need to find some old film of his knockouts and study it (which we have not done). Personally, I think it is a fluke style that only Dempsey could pull off...much like Ali or Tysons style. You can try to copy it , but you can't duplicate it because it was unique to that fighter only...his timing,his insight, his movement, his internal 'radar'. Just my observation.

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Originally Posted by Gray Lion

In 1964, I trained under a man named Carmen Cursin. He was not only a friend of Jack Dempsey, but a trainer and sparing partner. He was among the last of the bare knuckle fighters also. I remember him talking about Jack Dempsey and the 'splinter punch'. the way he described it was that the entinre knockout punch depended on timing. Jack would set himself up directly in front of his opponent quickly, and then step forward driving his entire body behind a straight punch with the thumb upward. the energy behind the punch would slam through a denfense and would be aimed for the chin, lower jaw, --a knockout. I never tried it, but many of us have talked about it and keep saying we need to find some old film of his knockouts and study it (which we have not done). Personally, I think it is a fluke style that only Dempsey could pull off...much like Ali or Tysons style. You can try to copy it , but you can't duplicate it because it was unique to that fighter only...his timing,his insight, his movement, his internal 'radar'. Just my observation.

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Ok, thanks for feedback!

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

There are number of things in Dempsey's book that aren't explained as well as they could be; on the other hand there are some things that make a great deal of sense. In general, you don't want to shift the weight onto your front foot when you jab; sure you get more pop on it that way, but it plants you in one place (making you vulnerable to counters) and it makes your right hand follow -up a two part process. Because your have to rock your weight back, then forward, to throw a proper right hand.
The 'power' in that move, like the Cotto clip you posted demonstrates, comes from the right foot propelling your weight forward. This also encourages you to bring it along with you, which makes it easier to throw follow-up punches, or to move away afterwards.

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Can you please re-post a similar video on how a fighter can throw the jab properly without shifting weight to the front foot? The old gif's in the original thread are no longer available.