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I was wondering what everyones opinion about the philly shell stance is. I mess around with it sometimes and i find that i cant protect myself as good with especially on the inside but on the other hand i feel like i can strike and especially counter better with it. Thoughts anyone?
Hi, what do you understand under Philly shell? The basic stance(sideways with the weight on the back foot) just with the front hand down(which elavetes your scholder automatically evan more). I think its pretty damn good (almost all of the great ones have used it in one way or oder...). It takes alittle bit skill. But when you master it you have much more options. You are very good covert passive when you bring your sholder up. With alittle bit movement from the waist and the feeds you can block all types of streights with your scholder and if you crouch alittle bit the right haymakers from your oponent will fly alay(just watch Tonney vs Jirov). The best part in blocking with the sholder ist the robustness. I am heavyweight and when i take the shots on my sholder i dont feel them... I dont know how it is for you, but taking punches on my gloves from a puncher dont make me feel good ;) If you master the rolling with the sholder and the ducking you are going to be pretty hard to hit. In doing so you have taken all the punches from the oder guy... The side ways stance gives you all oder type of goodies... You are mobile, you can trow all punches with max power, you can duck really easy (safety first!), gives you proper distance , awesome jab and so on and so on... The problem with the stance is that it takes alittle bit skill. Alot of the new coaches out there dont understand some fundamental skills and they want to make you run befor you can walk... They tell you stay squer with hands up and you are ready to go. Of cource the truth is not this.. In doing so you have given up form all the punches except from the left hook, you are mobile like a stone and you have no control over the distance. Evan young Mike Tyson boxes from the back foot when he is on distance... As i like to say, If you have found your head on the street go box from the front foot with the hands up... And to summ all the madness that i have written...
Pluses:
1)You are mobile with great balace(from where you became fast and powerful)
2)Passive good covert
3)When you lear to duck and roll you are very hard to hit
4)You can punch with all punches with max power
5)your left hand is much mora versatile from down there
6)Enables you to crauch(For me this is so good that it deserves another thread)
7)The stance is very robust, balanced, mobile and with the rolling ability you can counter really good. You can trow all type of counters and you can easy box a higher oponent because of the mobility...
Minuses:
A trainer who understands something from boxing or time and desire to learn it the hard way.
And if i have forgoten something please excuse me.
Are there any (significant) differences between the Philly Shell and the "Stonewall defense" promoted by Champ Thomas? (See the downloadable books in the Useful/Important posts subforum.)
If not, my first thought would be to read all of the Thomas material as he is almost completely devoted to this stance.
Also, there is mention of the Philly Shell by name in the Hatmaker book Boxing Mastery (where I went to check my understanding of the Philly Shell before posting this reply.)
I believe Nikola's only negative point was meant to say (something like): It's difficult to find a trainer/coach who is both open to this option and experienced in teaching it.
That is certainly true for me, and has stood in my way from trying this option.
As I am an older boxer who will almost certainly never box competitively nor seriously, much of my boxing training is personally focused on improving my general self-defense skills and both supplementing and integrating my skills from other combat arts under realistic (fully resisting opponent with forceful blows) conditions.
The Philly Shell actually resembles one nearly passive (but very protective) PRE-fight stance: The Jack Benny: One hand horizontal to the opposite elbow with that second arm vertical with the hand AT the chin.
This is a very good PRE-fight stance during the time one is attempting to defuse a situation, avoid a fight, or determine if criminal attack is about to be launched.
My tendency is to believe that the similarities are NOT accidental.
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HerbM
Hi HerbM,
You are absolutely right.There are alot of exact matches, because boxing has evolved from free fight and when you fight without big handgloves you must use robuster parts of your body(forearms and sholders) and you must be much more elusive(not like the new UFC guys eating punches like candys)... I think there is no difference between Stone wall and philly shell too. Only in the stone wall Champ Thomas has forgoten some very important things like rythm...
The 1st guy I saw using it was Charly Burly. its not new ;D.
In fact ive fallen in love with the technique, but it has to be worked on. Needs high concentration levels to practice it, plus other things come of it.
Hey herb i read the Champ Thomas book and the philly shell is the exact stance he loves and focuses on. The main reason i started this thread was to find out why everyone says not to use it. Also i would love for someone to tell me all they can about the shoulder roll because everytime i read something on the internet it says the shoulder roll is important when using the philly shell. Speaking of Champs Thomas' book, i believe he says very little, if anything at all about the shoulder roll. I am going to read through it again though to make sure. Thanks for the help everyone it has helped alot!
When you put your left hand down and relaxes your sholder you give a target for the right hands...This target is more imaginary than real because if you stay back there and prepared for them, its really easy to block or roll with them. Your oponent will commit on trowing the right hands and so, as Scrap says, you must maintain your concentration. I love to think abaut the defencive techniques like puches but without trowing them. The mechanics behind sliping, rolling, ducking is the same. First you must have rythm in order to make the movements happen fast as possible. For example if boxer caches anoder boxer with a combo and he wants to go backwards, how do you thing he is going to initiate the movement faster:staying flat footed or in the backwards motion from the rythm... And then the second part, in order to make this defensive moves you must turn your sholders, load up the hand in which direction you are going and stay balanced in order to trow punch or move after that... Sounds pretty much llike punching for me. And last point on rythm. If you make at abaut 120 130 bounces per minute you are using the elasticity of your muscles and you spend almost no energy in doing so. If you dont have it you are going to stay flat footed because its un natural to stay on ball of your foot not moving and you are going to get tired pretty fast...
I think that the first boxer that i see using the defence was jack dempsey... He used it from a crauch in order to get near to his oponent. With his constant bobing and rolling he was famous to be very hard to hit and when he take a shot it wasnt flush. The shots were soften by hitting first the scholder and then falling under a big angle on the top of the head (which deflected even more the power) or when he was going backwards with the shot... In boxing you are gonna take alot of punches... But the question is how you are gonna take them?
Thank you nikola your threads are very informitive. Question about the shoulder roll. Can it be used in like a pushing motion like when some throws a straight, as they do that i turn my shoulder to the inside, the punch makes contact with the front deltoid part of my shoulder which pushes his fist out of the way. Similar to the motion when you whipe someones jab, or parry a jab (i hope you understand this lol). Or should i focus mainly on just blocking the punch with the shoulder. Also when my opponent throws a punch with his left hand should i only block with my right side? And when he throws with his right should i only block with my left? I hope this all makes since. Thank you again and any more info you can give helps alot. I like this stance because i can strike out of it very effectivly but dont know alot about the defensive side and i have no one to teach me about it.
Its optimal to use your sholder to parry the right hands from the oponend. When you parry and he is overextending with his rights you are gonna take his head off... But this movement has his price. You must have gut timing and reactions and if you miss the parry its bad news for you(watch Archie Moore vs Yvon Durelle). Blocking, as like with the hand, is much more solid, but it limits your options for counter because you have shorten the movement from the oder guy and you can loose balance. You can block easy left jabs with your sholder too. Normally that does not compromize your defence much, but dont over do it because you open your self to right hands to the body(watch Toney)... The position of the hands leeds to the cross arm defence wich is mostly cross parry... Very good example to watch for both mistakes and good use simultaniously(lol) is Ken Norton. He is pretty solid when you try to hit him with straights. He take them all with the sholder or the right hand but this leeds to cross parring. In cross parry you are open for the left hook. Than to block it you must lift your right elbow up
or return the glove fast to your right temple. Ken dont do both of them good(Norton vs Forman, Norton vs Shavers)... Good example of the cross arm defence is Evander Hololyfield and of cource Archie Moore. Personally i dont lilke to go in the cross arm (i am not verry good there). I like to go in a slide crauch to the right(which gives a slight engle to the oponent and you are not on his line of attack and in general the position outside of the left hand of your oponent is "safe zone") and bobing from there(watch Rocky Marciano). You can go under all punches and you are loading the right hand. How you are going to stay depends of your build... I am very solid(110 kilos most in my legs) and not very tall(6'~5'9"), so crauching deep make alot sence for me. If you are tall watch Ezzard Charles, Bob Foster and Mike MCcallum to name a few. I hope that this helps.
Certainly there is....The style is not to be used by everyone...You MUST be able to adapt your offense to it as well....Far too moften guys try to use this style and take more punishment then need be due to the fact they can not adhere it properly....It is a very relaxed style.....It also can not be confused with a style where other guys just roll with shots....One of the best modern day fighters to be able and roll with shots and not take abuse in doing so is James ToneyQuote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Have you (or has everyone) noticed that at the bottom of each thread there is a "Similar Threads" area?
- How DO I DO the Philly shell??
- TOP 10 best ever users of the PHILLY SHELL DEFENSE
- The Shell/Crab Method
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HerbM