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Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Hi Everyone,
Here's an outstanding two-part article written by the very sharp Connor Ruebusch on the late, great Archie Moore and his "Lock" system. I don't remember if I mentioned this in a past post, but back in 1981, I had the honor and privilege of spending a few days being taught and trained by Mr Moore (who came to our gym via his friendship with my coach). I was in high school at the time and not that knowledgeable about who he was. With that, I didn't really appreciate how fortunate I was to spend time with him.
While he shared a lot with me and my teammates, when I look back, I wish I would have picked his brains more. Anyway, it was very cool to hang out and learn from Mr Moore.
Alright, moving on, this article is quite long, and since there's a 10,000 character limit per post, I'll break it up into several parts to accommodate it.
I think many of you here will really enjoy this article. I certainly did. So, sit back, relax, and read on...
Take Care,
Lito
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Solving Styles: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and the Lock, part 1
By Connor Ruebusch on Jun 11 2014
There is an old and, frankly, overused saying in combat sports that "styles make fights." Like most cliches, the phrase persists because it contains a universal truth. The same fighter can beat a champion one day and lose to a mere journeyman the next, simply because the journeyman had a style that he didn't quite know how to solve. It is this enigma that makes history's greatest fighters all the more impressive, because they are the ones who solve every opponent put in front of them.
It's rarely an accident, however, that these legends manage to beat all comers. In fact, more often than not, it's the result of intelligent, systematic fighting, which means intelligent, systematic training. Systematic is the key word here; there is a difference, you see, between a system and a style. Whereas "style" denotes the way one likes to fight, "system" denotes the various tools that allow one to do so. A system is all about solving problems that athleticism and personality alone can't crack.
I'll share with you a quote from my mentor Luis Monda that sums it up perfectly.
"When a fighter is trying to hit you, he's asking a question. Your punches are responses. In [a system], there are specific answers to most questions."
In short, styles make fights, but systems solve styles.
In this series I will aim to break down some of history's most iconic systems, as used by their most famous practitioners. Like taking apart a powerful engine, it is my hope that by "reverse engineering" these systems we might gain not only a greater understanding of them, but a greater appreciation for what these fighters accomplished.
In this first installment, we examine Archie Moore's famous cross-armed guard.
What is the Lock?
Let's first examine the most iconic element of Moore's system, the so-called "cross-armed guard" or, as Archie's son Billy Moore terms it, "the Lock." To do that, we'll have to delve into the mists of boxing history.
The exact historical origin of this technique is not easy to suss out, but it's clear that it did not start with Moore. Throughout his career Archie was quick to sing the praises of his trainer, Hiawatha Grey, so perhaps it was he who first taught Moore the technique. This seems likely, given that Grey was a relic of bare-knuckle boxing where, as we'll soon see, this technique has its origins, though it clearly predates even him. Grey's last verified fight took place in 1930, and the cross-armed guard, or at least the barebones concept behind it, is much older than that.
The most notable attribute of Moore's defensive shell, namely the "cross-armed" aspect, is certainly a very old technique. Here a similar maneuver is illustrated in a manual ca. 1825.
The manual refers to this technique as "barring a blow", and it describes a motion wherein the arm is thrown across the spot where an incoming punch is expected to land, to both stop it and carry it off-line, hopefully off-balancing the attacker and even exposing him to counters.
In these days combination punching was not highly emphasized. Boxers were taught to throw their full weight forward into their strikes, making it difficult to follow one committed attack with another (you can see this from the attacker in the example above). As such, defense was comprised mostly of blocks and parries, and pugilists would attempt to pick off each blow as they saw it coming.
By the end of the 19th century, however, boxers were learning that they could bypass the opponent's defenses by throwing two, three, or more punches in quick succession. Feinting was already common practice (this is the reasoning behind the constant "windmilling" of the arms you see in very old fight footage), but by following their first strike with another, and another, early prizefighters found they could land even after one or two successful defenses. Thus, around the turn of the century we begin to see a higher occurrence of "double guards," or covers, such as the high guard still common today, and prototypes of the cross-armed guard used by Moore.
Here a cross-armed guard is modeled by heavyweight Gus Ruhlin, who fought both Jim Jeffries and Bob Fitzimmons, two of the most important names in boxing history, in the span of one year (losing to both, but there's no shame in that). Professor Donovan, the author of the manual containing this image, advises boxers that such a guard "should be rarely used; and is only really necessary when your opponent brings both hands to play simultaneously or in rapid succession", driving home the point that effective combination punching was still something of a novelty at the time.
Looking at it, it really is a practical guard. Unlike the typical high guard of today, this cross-armed guard places a higher emphasis on stopping straight punches. The right arm, thrown across the face with the hand on the left shoulder, protects the entire jawline as well as the nose and mouth (particularly when the chin is held a bit lower than by Mr. Ruhlin here), leaving only the hard dome of the skull exposed. Also unlike today's high guard, peripheral vision is unimpeded, enhancing one's ability to make active defensive adjustments. The left arm, meanwhile, is placed across the stomach, covering the most vulnerable parts of the torso: the spleen, the liver, and the solar plexus. The last was a primary target in the bare-knuckle days--the straight punch to the solar plexus was such a sought-after blow that this part of the body was referred to by boxers as "the mark"--so it's no surprise that many early guards strove to protect it.
Continued on the next post...
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Continuing on with part one...
Moore improved on this already comprehensive design by adjusting the positioning of his body, furthering the ability of his arms to cover and protect. Pulling his head back and sinking into his right hip, Moore could bring his left shoulder and elbow up to cover the line of his chin, or he could shift to his left hip and raise his right elbow to defeat an incoming left hook. Moore also discovered that by changing levels, crouching and rolling with his upper body, his head, shoulders, and crossed arms would obstruct the opponent's line of sight, enabling him to sneak punches in from unexpected angles.
This ability to obfuscate and disguise intentions is perhaps the best and most underappreciated element of Archie's Lock. For we can't ignore the fact that, with both arms crossed over the body, a boxer is not in prime position to attack. "Barring" was more immediately viable in the bare-knuckle days whence it came to prominence, because Broughton's Rules, which governed the sport, allowed virtually every kind of hand strike.
Here, a boxer bars a straight right from his opponent, leaning back as he does so. Note that the knuckles of his right hand are turned out as he draws his hand fully across, over his left shoulder. The author of this manual, Donald Walker, writes that this position is especially useful for "the Mendoza style", by which he means Daniel Mendoza, arguably the very first "scientific" boxer. Mendoza was well known by his fondness for a blow called "the Chopper," a backfist which was brought swinging down onto the face of the opponent from precisely the position shown above.
By the 1880s, glove boxing and the new Queensbury Rules that governed it put an end to such "unmanful" strikes as the Chopper, prohibiting boxers from striking with any part of the hand but the fore-knuckles. The most obvious counter from the cross-armed guard illegalized, another method of attacking from this defensive shell would need to be devised for it to remain viable.
Back we go to Moore's adaptation, or rather the adaptation of Moore's era, as boxers like Paolino Uzcudun were using similar tactics years before the Old Mongoose came to prominence. As I mentioned above, Moore's system was based on body movement. Ducking, rolling, turning, and slipping, Moore would hide his weapons from his opponent's sight. Turning to his right, he would hide his right hand behind his left shoulder. Turning left, he would lower his head and hide his left under his right arm. He would also use his crossed arms from this position to lever his opponent on the inside, creating space to throw his punches.
If one were really desperate for historical comparisons, one could trace this facet of Moore's style all the way back to sword and buckler fencing, in which the buckler, a small shield, was used less for static defense and more as a means of hiding one's sword from the opponent, thus preventing him from reading the attack. This folio, from Royal Armouries Manuscript, shows the concept clearly.
Many of the bare-knuckle boxing manuals referenced already contain sections on swordplay, so this connection isn't as much of a stretch as it may seem at first. Given the fact that English boxing stemmed directly from rapier and smallsword fencing, however, not sword and buckler, and the fact that there were several well-established schools of pure boxing by the end of the 19th century, it is more likely that Moore's application of the cross-armed guard developed wholly within the sport of boxing itself. Still, the connection is intriguing.
So ends part one of this analysis. With the history of the Lock out of the way, tomorrow I will be using videos and GIFs of Moore and his various stylistic descendants to analyze the facets of his particular system. At the risk of making it sound too exciting, I'll tell you this: there's a flow chart. Make sure to check back tomorrow morning for that!
Continue onto part two in the next post...
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Hi Again Everyone,
If you thought part one was really good, you're going to enjoy part two even more. So, once again, sit back, relax, and read on...
Take Care,
Lito
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Solving Styles: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and the Lock, part 2
By Connor Ruebusch on Jun 12 2014
Yesterday, we explored the history behind the famous cross-armed guard of Archie Moore, also known as the Lock. As a basic technique, the cross-armed guard goes back into the early 19th century at least, but it was Archie Moore who made it his signature. Today we will look into his unique application.
Until the time of George Foreman, and later Bernard Hopkins, Moore was the oldest fighter to ever hold a world title, as good an endorsement of his defensive prowess as one could ask for. And while he may not have held his belt as long as those men, he spent far longer than either in the sport, winning his first professional bout in 1935 and fighting his last in 1963. In addition, Moore still holds, and probably always will, the record for most knockouts with an astounding 131 fights ended inside the distance, making him one of the most complete fighters to ever set foot in the squared circle.
All of this points to the one thing that truly made Moore great, that is, his mind. He was not an exceptional athlete, nor did he possess an iron jaw, nor incredible speed. What Moore possessed that gave him such outstanding longevity was a system. There was no situation that could arise in the ring that Moore did not have a prepared and meticulously trained answer to. In a 1955 interview with Sports Illustrated, Moore said of his fighting philosophy, "I try to build a bridge. With each punch I try to build a bridge so I can escape over it if something goes wrong. That's what you call escapology. That's what I call escapology."
Moore had many such "bridges" in his system. In an attempt to "reverse engineer" Archie's game, I've put together one of my geekiest creations yet. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Archie Moore flow chart.
Now, before we explore some of these paths, I should point out that this is by no means a complete layout of Moore's system. In this chart we have his set responses to three basic punches--the jab, cross, and hook, and each path assumes that the opponent has led with the jab first. It doesn't account for such subtleties as range and angle, which would play a huge part in determining Moore's punch selection. Don't let this fool you into thinking that Moore was at a loss if his man started his assault with a hook, or a lead right; likewise, don't let the fact that my chart doesn't include Archie's various leads and feints lead you to believe that he was strictly a counter fighter. In 219 trips to the prizefighting ring, Moore made it very clear that he had a plan for every eventuality, and a tool to account for every possible opening.
It would simply be too difficult to put together, and likely to read a chart that covered every technique in Moore's vast system. Nonetheless, this pared-down version gives a pretty good idea of Moore's basic defenses and counters against an average, run-of-the-mill boxer.
Many Answers
One of the keys to Moore's incredible success was the number of options to which he could turn in response to each attack from his opponent. In 1958, Moore defended his light heavyweight title for the 7th time against Yvon Durelle, and in the first round paid the price for using too predictable a defense against the tough Canadian.
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...ocked_down.gif
About a minute into round one Durelle caught Moore cold. Before this sequence Moore had already settled into a predictable pattern, and you can see the continuation of that pattern at the beginning of this GIF. Durelle, right hand cocked, prods Archie with a jab, and the Mongoose slips it to the outside, attempting to counter with a right hand. To his immense credit, Durelle tries the jab again, and drops a perfectly timed right hand immediately behind it. Moore slips the jab the same exact way, perhaps looking for another counter right, and puts his head right in the path of Durelle's punch.
This is the risk of having only one answer to a given threat. Why choose this, an example of Moore getting dropped, as the first in an article about Moore's prowess? Well, Archie Moore was not the kind of man to make the same mistake twice. For those of you who have never seen this fight: Moore, despite looking all but dead after that right hand above, got up, adapted, and fought ten more rounds before knocking Durelle out (though he would go down twice more before the end of the first).
Once Durelle proved he could put a killer punch behind that jab, Moore became obsessed with defeating it. First, he began slipping the jab to the inside, preventing it from blinding him to a potential follow-up right hand. Throughout round two he began circling to Durelle's right, ostensibly moving into his right hand, but actually moving away from the left he needed to set it up, and therefore forcing Durelle to either constantly adjust or else throw a naked right hand that proved much easier to dodge. Of course, Moore's defense alone didn't get him 131 knockouts--his counters did, and Moore didn't even need a half round of recovery before he started countering with ill intent. Let' go to the flow chart.
Slipping inside the jab, Moore ends up with his head slightly forward and his weight on his left foot. From this position, his left hook is cocked and loaded, and Moore has never been shy about throwing it.
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...nside_slip.gif
Note how Moore is constantly pivoting to Durelle's right, even as he throws his punches and avoids those of his opponent. This keeps Durelle from setting his feet and throwing combinations of punches while Moore recovers from the brutal first round.
As the fight wore on, Moore's defense of the jab became more and more varied, until Durelle began to forget about the reason he was throwing it in the first place. Instead of throwing combinations off of his jab, Durelle became so frustrated that he couldn't land it, and so flummoxed by the fact that Moore was constantly in different positions after avoiding it, that he repeatedly eschewed his power punches altogether. Moore, in response, grew ever more comfortable in his ability to counter it, even going back to the outside slip that had nearly gotten him knocked out in the opening frame.
As the chart says, so Moore does.
http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...ss_counter.gif
Here, tired and frustrated in the 10th round, Durelle feints. Moore reacts, throwing up his right hand to catch Durelle's jab. Durelle commits to a real jab next, but Moore doesn't go back to the same defense. Instead, he slips outside the jab and comes back over the top with a heavy right hand. Still wary of Durelle's power, Archie doesn't pounce to follow up on his staggered foe, but instead cautiously reestablishes the range with a short step back.
Continuing on the next post...
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Continuing on with part two...
Even when he was so resoundingly effective, though, Moore didn't rest on his laurels. Rightly so, because Durelle was still looking for the kill.
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...der_roll_2.gif
Here, Durelle throws out his jab, and then lunges in with a right hand after a moment of hesitation, the same combination that dropped Moore before. This time he's not so lucky.
Moore's poise is admirable in this exchange, which took place and the eleventh and, ultimately, final round of the fight. By this point in the fight, despite hitting the canvas four times, he's thoroughly figured Durelle's game, while Durelle hasn't even seen all of Moore's tricks yet. As the challenger flashes his jab, Moore thinks about countering with his own left hand. It's barely perceptible, the movement of his left only noticeably if you're really looking closely for it, but that's exactly what Durelle was doing. Thinking to catch Moore mid-punch, Durelle lunges into a right hand the moment he sees Moore about to punch. In doing so, however, he throws himself completely off balance. He can't be blamed for his zeal, as the right hand that dropped Moore in round one only landed as solidly as it did because Durelle was willing to fall in, extending the reach on his punch, but this time Moore is ready for it, and his own attempted punch hasn't put him out of position at all.
Adjusting to the new threat, Moore shoulder rolls the right hand to set up his counter, a perfectly placed cross to the chin. Unlike the shoulder roll of Floyd Mayweather Jr, with whom we tend to associate the technique, Moore prefers to execute his version from long range. Instead of parrying the opponent's punch with his left shoulder, Moore uses the rolling motion as more of an evasive maneuver, squaring his shoulders to present his centerline, and then suddenly turning, taking his opponent's target away. As you can see, it usually caused them to miss big.
Here's another example of Moore's unique shoulder rolling technique, from his ill-fated encounter with heavyweight legend Rocky Marciano.
http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...ulder_roll.gif
Again, Moore places himself at a rather long distance from his opponent, forcing Marciano to badly overextend himself in his effort to land. As Rocky's looping right hand goes whistling by, Moore sticks the champion with a perfectly straight right of his own, its force multiplied by Marciano's forward momentum.
A Matter of Inches
As it turns out, Moore was relatively unconcerned with Marciano's notorious right. In the same Sports Illustrated interview quoted above, Moore claimed that Marciano's most fearsome punch was his left hook. If that was indeed the case, then Moore does a spectacular job of defending the one preceding the overhand above, simply by adjusting his right arm a few inches. As Marciano ducks down, Moore keeps his eyes on him and throws up the Lock, preparing for whatever wild punch might come next. Seeing the left hook, and it's a pretty short one by Marciano's standards, Moore changes the shape of his guard, lifting his right elbow to cover his jaw and catching the champ's left right on the point.
In part one we explored the history of Moore's iconic guard, and traced it back to the era of bare-knuckle boxing, in particular a trainer who was present at various times throughout Archie's career, a man by the name of Hiawatha Grey. If it was Grey who taught Moore the Lock, and I tend to think it was, then this makes perfect sense. Before their fight, Marciano described Moore as being "all gloves, arms, and elbows." A bare-knuckle boxer such as Grey would have made a formidable defense out of those arms and elbows, which present an unwelcome landing site for a fragile human fist. Even with gloves and wraps, Moore was exceptionally skilled at placing his arms in just the right position that his adversaries would connect directly with the point of his elbow, or the blade of his forearm.
Let's go back to the Durelle fight for a moment.
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...ring_hooks.gif
After eight rounds, Durelle had stunned Moore multiple times, but simply couldn't put him away. In this GIF, desperate for the right hand that had worked so well earlier, he stands right in front of Moore and tries to connect cleanly. Moore rolls under the first right hand, then raises his elbow, expecting a hook to the head or maybe an uppercut to follow. Instead, Durelle swings for the body, and Moore deftly lowers his elbow a few inches to cover his ribs. Durelle becomes so preoccupied with finding ways around Moore's defense that he forgets that Moore could stop defending and go on the attack at any moment. Moore promptly reminds him with a left hook, timed perfectly as Durelle cocks back his right hand and exposes his jaw.
Hidden Weapons
The most underrated aspect of Moore's game was his ability to hide his power punches, not merely disguising his intentions with feints, though he could fake with the best of them, but literally obstructing his punches from view. They say the punch that you don't see is the one that knocks you out, and much of Moore's success as a knockout puncher must be attributed to the unpredictability of his punches, all thanks to his crafty, sneaky style.
We've seen Archie slip inside the jab to load up a hook, but nothing about that was very unique to his system. Now we'll take a look at one of his most iconic attacks, a sneaky left hook thrown from the cover of his guard.
http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass..._left_hook.gif
In this sequence, Moore battles a young Muhammad Ali, then known by the name Cassius Clay. Even at this early stage in his career, Clay possessed a vicious, unpredictable jab. It only took him four rounds to stop Moore in what would turn out to be the Old Mongoose's second-to-last fight, but Moore made a valiant effort until his old body started to let him down. Here, he reacts to a feint, expecting that stinging jab. Finding himself momentarily compromised, he stays low and covers to protect himself. Protected from the immediate threat of a left hook by his upraised right elbow, he decides to capitalize on his position, stepping forward and pulling back his left hand for a hook to the belt line of Clay.
Not merely a defense, that crossed right arm prevents Clay from seeing the action of Moore's left hand as he loads it up, and he stays in range too long to avoid it. Yesterday I compared this utilization of the Lock to sword and buckler fencing. Here, the comparison is particularly apt. Moore's right arm is his shield. Like a buckler, it is small and doesn't provide much defensive coverage, but it completely blocks Clay's line of sight while Moore positions his sword, the left hand. Clay has no indication of the trajectory or target of Moore's punch until it's already well on its way.
One more example of a hidden punch, this one from the second round of Moore vs Marciano.
http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...y_uppercut.gif
Moore again capitalizes on Marciano's looping, hair-trigger right hand. Moving his upper body, he draws the punch out of his opponent so that he can counter. As Marciano unloads, Moore again executes his now-you-see-me shoulder roll, slipping just out of the way of the heavy punch. Having already dropped Marciano with a straight right in round one, Moore elects to throw an uppercut this time around. With his body turned to the right, Moore's left shoulder hides the right side of his body from Marciano's view. Watch as he keeps his arms glued to his body until he has fully turned his shoulder, at which point he quickly lowers his hand and pulls back his elbow for the uppercut. Marciano, wise to counters now, tries to bull his way through with a left hook, but Moore's uppercut, which he called a "defensive punch" catches the heavyweight champ leaning and halts his advance.
Moore had the keys to beat any style in his prime. Despite having to wait till the age of 36 to receive his first title shot, Moore ruled the light heavyweight division undisputed for nearly eight years, never losing his title to a challenger. One of the greatest pound-for-pound fighters of all time, Moore's success was built on the depth and adaptability of his system. The Lock, whatever its provenance, will stand forever as one of the most successful systems in the history of boxing.
For every question, an answer: that's how you solve a style.
The End
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Only breezed through that bro, Its fascinating.
I dont pretend to know flow charts though,Ill be back to really check it out further, what fun :cool:.
Great stuff Lito.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
That's awesome. Very interesting comparison to sword and buckler fighting. And a great breakdown of the system. That's one of the best things I've read in awhile.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
I am not convicned there was a system, need to watch the fights though
Fighters do tend to fight in patterns however
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
I am not convicned there was a system, need to watch the fights though
Fighters do tend to fight in patterns however
Why would you doubt it? The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Why would you doubt it?
That's my job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
I am always looking for a proof.
I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Why would you doubt it?
That's my job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
I am always looking for a proof.
I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Why would you doubt it?
That's my job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
I am always looking for a proof.
I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.
If I understand nvsemin correctly than I completely agree with him.The reason being is that it's pretty hard to teach somebody a new style or even a style that they're not comfortable with!fact if somebody stands in a skate board position it's pretty hard to have them adapt to a peekaboo position or any other position for that matter.it appears that we are all born with the natural defense system for example you can train someone to fight off the front or the back foot but in the end they're going to revert to what they feel comfortable doing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Why would you doubt it?
That's my job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
The Mayweather's have a system, Peekaboo is a system, Moore definitely had one. System just means you have trained responses to specific things the other guy does--something other than shelling up and hoping for the best.
I am always looking for a proof.
I have not discovered actual system in peekaboo or mayweather style, but I do see some patterns.
Those are absolutely systems. It literally isn't even open for debate man. The people who teach those have answers for everything built into what they teach. I'd argue that pretty much every great trainer has a system whether they name it or not. I pointed those two out because they're likely the most famous. Just because you only see some patterns doesn't mean the whole system isn't there, because the system is definitely there. I mean even you calling them styles is wrong, because different guys trained in those systems still fight/fought different ways, with their own styles.
If I understand nvsemin correctly than I completely agree with him.The reason being is that it's pretty hard to teach somebody a new style or even a style that they're not comfortable with!fact if somebody stands in a skate board position it's pretty hard to have them adapt to a peekaboo position or any other position for that matter.it appears that we are all born with the natural defense system for example you can train someone to fight off the front or the back foot but in the end they're going to revert to what they feel comfortable doing.
Ok, again, systems and styles are very different things. A system allows multiple styles to exist in it. Not everyone trained in peekaboo fights the same, not everyone trained under the mayweathers fights the same. They have different styles but come from the same system.
Also good fights don't fight off the front foot OR the back foot, they fight off both as needed.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
One certainty is everyone's system is based on counter punching, movement.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scrap
One certainty is everyone's system is based on counter punching, movement.
That is exactly it. You do something- a feint, how you move closer, whatever- and because you do it a lot, you have a pretty good idea of what the other guy is going to do, and so then you know what you are going to do, and so on. Good fighters seem to know what the other guy is going to do next because he is making them do it.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
It appears that all the hype of the Mayweather shoulder roll is done.Andre Ward is the new technique of defense which is nothing more than the lock to block a right punch just simply put your left arm out in a right arc. Andre Ward In Ring Demonstration - YouTube 2:26
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Like grey says you tell them what to do, first to establish a punch or counter takes control by feinting and kidding them into position.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.
For someone who's supposedly trained with Cubans, undefeated pros and national level coaches you sure don't know shit about boxing.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.
For someone who's supposedly trained with Cubans, undefeated pros and national level coaches you sure don't know shit about boxing.
What are you going to do? Throw a jab and long cross... get off your one or two punches and I'll take a step forward for every punch that you throw at me until we meet in the corner.
What are you gonna do when we're in the pocket together. whats the pocket? Do this go to the bag and put your right hand to the pocket of the bag and come forward until the arm forms a 90° right angle. Let's do the punches that I do every day remember small movements please throw this combo 1,2,5,6 on the bodyshots turn the thumbs in. Now! The left hook, rule in boxing never throw a hook standing still. Take your left foot and step to the left. Put your weight on the left foot and press down and come up using the power of the left toe! Don't turn over the left ankle! Keep your left elbow in! As your throwing the left hook let the elbow travel up the side of the body 3-4 cm. now turn over the thumb until your arm and hand looks like a shovel try not to turn the elbow over too much over remember the movement is small. It's permissible to slide your shoulder to right slightly as you throw the hook. Now step out to the left side of the bag. 1,2,5,6,3 step out to the left side of the bag.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.
For someone who's supposedly trained with Cubans, undefeated pros and national level coaches you sure don't know shit about boxing.
What are you going to do? Throw a jab and long cross... get off your one or two punches and I'll take a step forward for every punch that you throw at me until we meet in the corner.
What are you gonna do when we're in the pocket together. whats the pocket? Do this go to the bag and put your right hand to the pocket of the bag and come forward until the arm forms a 90° right angle. Let's do the punches that I do every day remember small movements please throw this combo 1,2,5,6 on the bodyshots turn the thumbs in. Now! The left hook, rule in boxing never throw a hook standing still. Take your left foot and step to the left. Put your weight on the left foot and press down and come up using the power of the left toe! Don't turn over the left ankle! Keep your left elbow in! As your throwing the left hook let the elbow travel up the side of the body 3-4 cm. now turn over the thumb until your arm and hand looks like a shovel try not to turn the elbow over too much over remember the movement is small. It's permissible to slide your shoulder to right slightly as you throw the hook. Now step out to the left side of the bag. 1,2,5,6,3 step out to the left side of the bag.
What the fuck are you talking about? Can you even read? Do you actually understand a word of what anyone writes?
If I thought you actually trained I'd be worried you're taking a few too many to the dome.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.
For someone who's supposedly trained with Cubans, undefeated pros and national level coaches you sure don't know shit about boxing.
What are you going to do? Throw a jab and long cross... get off your one or two punches and I'll take a step forward for every punch that you throw at me until we meet in the corner.
What are you gonna do when we're in the pocket together. whats the pocket? Do this go to the bag and put your right hand to the pocket of the bag and come forward until the arm forms a 90° right angle. Let's do the punches that I do every day remember small movements please throw this combo 1,2,5,6 on the bodyshots turn the thumbs in. Now! The left hook, rule in boxing never throw a hook standing still. Take your left foot and step to the left. Put your weight on the left foot and press down and come up using the power of the left toe! Don't turn over the left ankle! Keep your left elbow in! As your throwing the left hook let the elbow travel up the side of the body 3-4 cm. now turn over the thumb until your arm and hand looks like a shovel try not to turn the elbow over too much over remember the movement is small. It's permissible to slide your shoulder to right slightly as you throw the hook. Now step out to the left side of the bag. 1,2,5,6,3 step out to the left side of the bag.
What the fuck are you talking about? Can you even read? Do you actually understand a word of what anyone writes?
If I thought you actually trained I'd be worried you're taking a few too many to the dome.
I'm telling you that I don't believe in a system! What I do believe in is fighting, remember Everyones got a plan until they get punched in the face. When I go in the ring I have no system or game plan... Get it no I've got no system!
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Bcbud you would never get past my jab to get me to a corner coz i used to tell dumbasses like you how to defend my jab and id throw bombs where i know your gonna be because of your half assed defence and stupid rules, if you never throw a left hook planteed you aint ever thrown a desent left hook end of.
Like jms said if i believed youd ever even sparred before id be worried for you, deontay wilder, like id even be impressed by that. I noticed you dont have a response to my openings, that was common. Why dont you post a video of you and your friends discussing a system? Discussing a response to my opening? Rather than just smiling to eachother about it? Whats your name bcbud? Ill ask him about your conversation on twitter now, see what he says about you? Whats ur name BCBUD?
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Bc bud the system that is drilled into you countless times doesnt fall out of your head when you get punched, its more that your body remembers rather than your head as its been drilled in so much.
Again videos of you actually boxing and your Real name please so i can twitter some guys and prove your full of shit. If you arnt willing to do that then go away and stop trying to tellin fighters how to fight you idiot lol again you dont learn boxing on the computer, get to the fkin gym lol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Bcbud do you even box? Of course fighters have a system. By what your saying there is no point in teaching any fighter nothin coz theyll go back to what theyre comfy with? Why bother teaching anything? Stance? Combinations? Lmao seriously your claiming you box with national coaches? Lol
I had a system like any reall fighter does. If i didnt want you to jab i would come under and over it with hard combos. If i want you to jab then im not countering as im looking to get the timing down to take your head off with these shit jabs your throwing.
That is just a glimpse of my openings. If you aint got a system you aint gunnado much in any fight.
Well it goes back to what my old cuban coach said you either got elasticity or you don't. Whatever you do blocking,stance,moving forward you're still gonna get knocked out. Just recently I had the chance to work out with Deontay Wilder when I shared with Deontay some of your ideas Wayne, I remember Deontay smiling and he said tell that guy that he can do what ever he wants but when those hands come down. Bomb squad. Tru dat.
For someone who's supposedly trained with Cubans, undefeated pros and national level coaches you sure don't know shit about boxing.
What are you going to do? Throw a jab and long cross... get off your one or two punches and I'll take a step forward for every punch that you throw at me until we meet in the corner.
What are you gonna do when we're in the pocket together. whats the pocket? Do this go to the bag and put your right hand to the pocket of the bag and come forward until the arm forms a 90° right angle. Let's do the punches that I do every day remember small movements please throw this combo 1,2,5,6 on the bodyshots turn the thumbs in. Now! The left hook, rule in boxing never throw a hook standing still. Take your left foot and step to the left. Put your weight on the left foot and press down and come up using the power of the left toe! Don't turn over the left ankle! Keep your left elbow in! As your throwing the left hook let the elbow travel up the side of the body 3-4 cm. now turn over the thumb until your arm and hand looks like a shovel try not to turn the elbow over too much over remember the movement is small. It's permissible to slide your shoulder to right slightly as you throw the hook. Now step out to the left side of the bag. 1,2,5,6,3 step out to the left side of the bag.
What the fuck are you talking about? Can you even read? Do you actually understand a word of what anyone writes?
If I thought you actually trained I'd be worried you're taking a few too many to the dome.
I'm telling you that I don't believe in a system! What I do believe in is fighting, remember Everyones got a plan until they get punched in the face. When I go in the ring I have no system or game plan... Get it no I've got no system!
A system isn't about having a plan, it's about having an answer to everything. It's about being drilled in every aspect of the game until you can execute without thought, then you can make decisions in the ring without having to think about everything you're doing. A fighter who wasn't taught a system is incomplete and ripe for an ass kicking as soon as I figure out that what he likes to do is all he's good at, and I know how to take away what he likes to do because I was taught a system.
By the way, fun fact, the reason most boxers think MMA fighters can't fight for shit is because they don't have a system. Well they do, but they have one for boxing, one for kickboxing, one for wrestling, one for submission grappling, etc. When they have to put it all together, the systems don't work together. So guys don't have confidence in their defense when they have to put it all together, which fucks up their range and everything else.
This stuff is over your head. Lol, keep working with those Cubans and national coaches that you've never met. I've heard visualition can be a good learning technique.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Good post jms, i agree with what your saying about MMA aswell the variation in weapons just makes it much harder to narrow somebody down, it makes for training dumb fighters. A system is not possible like in boxing were you can build a system, strategy use defensive manouvers that cover a vatiety of punches rather than just 1, wenever you move you load perfect shots, dont just move to where your going, knowing that boxing is an unpredictable thing at times, but also knowing the lack of weapons makes it a controllable environment and more like a chess game than the randomness that can be other combat sports.
Thats what boxing is. You obviously dont understand the difference between boxing somebody and havin a war in the trenches, youve never boxed before dont take the piss.
if you do know Freddy Roach BCBUD which obviously you dont. you would have heared him say many times over that luck should never be involved in boxing, ask him what he means ;)
If a lot of coaches took that saying to heart then we would see better standards being trained today.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Good post jms, i agree with what your saying about MMA aswell the variation in weapons just makes it much harder to narrow somebody down, it makes for training dumb fighters. A system is not possible like in boxing were you can build a system, strategy use defensive manouvers that cover a vatiety of punches rather than just 1, wenever you move you load perfect shots, dont just move to where your going, knowing that boxing is an unpredictable thing at times, but also knowing the lack of weapons makes it a controllable environment and more like a chess game than the randomness that can be other combat sports.
Thats what boxing is. You obviously dont understand the difference between boxing somebody and havin a war in the trenches, youve never boxed before dont take the piss.
if you do know Freddy Roach BCBUD which obviously you dont. you would have heared him say many times over that luck should never be involved in boxing, ask him what he means ;)
If a lot of coaches took that saying to heart then we would see better standards being trained today.
Freddie Roach told me that you can teach a fighter something new only to have him revert inside the ring. Tru dat.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Good post jms, i agree with what your saying about MMA aswell the variation in weapons just makes it much harder to narrow somebody down, it makes for training dumb fighters. A system is not possible like in boxing were you can build a system, strategy use defensive manouvers that cover a vatiety of punches rather than just 1, wenever you move you load perfect shots, dont just move to where your going, knowing that boxing is an unpredictable thing at times, but also knowing the lack of weapons makes it a controllable environment and more like a chess game than the randomness that can be other combat sports.
Thats what boxing is. You obviously dont understand the difference between boxing somebody and havin a war in the trenches, youve never boxed before dont take the piss.
if you do know Freddy Roach BCBUD which obviously you dont. you would have heared him say many times over that luck should never be involved in boxing, ask him what he means ;)
If a lot of coaches took that saying to heart then we would see better standards being trained today.
I'm of the opinion that boxing fundamentals are MMA fundamentals. A lot of people disagree with me on that, but the more I understand boxing the better my MMA gets. But when I say fundamentals I mean the real fundamentals--distance, positioning, balance, timing, rhythm, angles. A lot of people box and don't train those things. They have shitty stances with their legs too wide, their feet pointed in all the wrong directions, their posture terrible, their head forward, elbows out of position. When they move around the stance gets even worse. They start crossing feet, bringing the feet together and standing straight up, squaring up, etc. They rely on gloves to do their defense for them instead of using vision, distance and angles. They don't punch with their feet under them, but nobody corrects them because they can tap the pads pretty fast and know how to keep their hands up. Then these guys go into MMA and saying boxing doesn't work there...and I'm like shitty boxing doesn't work no. Maybe if you learned how to REALLY box then you would see how it opens the door to everything on the feet, including kicks and wrestling.
Take for example something as simple as slipping a right straight so it goes over your right shoulder. Doing this opens up so much in MMA. You can left uppercut or hook to the head or body, you can throw a right hand at the same time you're making that slip, you can pivot real fast and push them back from that angle, you can adjust the lead foot out slightly and make it a counter right kick (usually to the leg), you can push off the lead foot and drive into them for an easy double leg take down, you can thread your right hand over their head (think right forearm on their right ear) and your left hand meeting it after going under their right arm which will let you pull them into a knee, etc. There are so many options to suit any fighter as long as they can perform that basic move with the fundamentals in place so that they're balance and in position to do anything. But people don't do it because they never learn how to do it right. Instead they always pull away from the right hand, which leaves them in the path of it if the opponent lunges in but more importantly makes it very easy to take them down or kick their legs out.
I went on a rant there but the idea is that good boxing lets you do everything on the feet in MMA. But these MMA fighters learn how to box in MMA gyms, then by the time they get to the top where there are actually some real boxing coaches around they've already been built on a shaky foundation. And trying to improve that is a fight against the man's ego and comfort, it's often too late.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
Good post jms, i agree with what your saying about MMA aswell the variation in weapons just makes it much harder to narrow somebody down, it makes for training dumb fighters. A system is not possible like in boxing were you can build a system, strategy use defensive manouvers that cover a vatiety of punches rather than just 1, wenever you move you load perfect shots, dont just move to where your going, knowing that boxing is an unpredictable thing at times, but also knowing the lack of weapons makes it a controllable environment and more like a chess game than the randomness that can be other combat sports.
Thats what boxing is. You obviously dont understand the difference between boxing somebody and havin a war in the trenches, youve never boxed before dont take the piss.
if you do know Freddy Roach BCBUD which obviously you dont. you would have heared him say many times over that luck should never be involved in boxing, ask him what he means ;)
If a lot of coaches took that saying to heart then we would see better standards being trained today.
Freddie Roach told me that you can teach a fighter something new only to have him revert inside the ring. Tru dat.
No shit you can't apply every new thing you learn immediately. Are you telling me Roach thinks you can't teach someone anything new? Just man up, admit you're wrong and move on.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
BCbud its obvious you aint never spoken to Freddie Roach stop talkin shit youve been called out and exposed. Dont bother posting any more of your opinions unless it accompanys a video of you boxing/proof youve been in a gym/full name so you can clear your name.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WayneFlint
BCbud its obvious you aint never spoken to Freddie Roach stop talkin shit youve been called out and exposed. Dont bother posting any more of your opinions unless it accompanys a video of you boxing/proof youve been in a gym/full name so you can clear your name.
I have spoken with Freddie Roach, look Wayne again I'm going to show everyone how easy it is to beat your "system". Freddie says the best punches are six inches away from the target. It's hard to see a punch that originates from six inches away believe me I've been caught before.
Now you throw long jabs, and left hooks that you fall backwards unto left leg.
This how I'd fight you. In your stance put the right glove on the left chin! Now catch the jab! Now place the right hand on the right cheek turning to the left blocking the falling backwards Unto the right leg left hook. Now with the left foot step out to the left getting closer to the target. Now attach the right glove to the right cheek and throw the short left hook pushing off the front foot. Now left hook to the body and back up again (lever punching).
Unfortunately this is easier said than done against short punches.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Wayne are you British? Omg it's true we used too hear stories about the British boxers standing upright perpendicular. We thought that this was mere folklore.Sorry but I think our differences maybe cultural where I'm from most of the coaches are Irish there's huge difference in styles believe me. Look at Freddie Roach and Kenny Weldon, Teddy Atlas, Kevin Rooney I myself am Irish. In Irish boxing the technique is to put your head over the left knee this is after stepping out but where in British boxing both feet move at the same time with Roach and Weldon it's one foot at a time this enables you to get low enough to get the head over the knee it's almost bowing. I'd encourage you to look into this further even the punches are different when punching with your head over the knee. Study the Kenny Weldon tapes even better Freddie Roach. Sincerist apologies I meant no offence. Merry Christmas
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
For all you in the U.K who need advanced training on how to put your head over the left knee go to Scrap an expert on Charley Burley get some training preferably 1-1 with him. the difference between Roach,Kenny and Burley has to do with the positioning of the feet. Weldon is horizontal in positioning of the head so is Roach.
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You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgEyQhz4B68 Irish inside boxing omg watch this through then watch over all of Kenny Weldon's inside fighting and all of Roach's I've spent many summers at Kenny's gym a lot of us passed through there at one time. Top Irish fighters that I met there were 1. Tex Cobb 2. Tommy Morrison. 3. I worked with Termite Watkins personally until Weldon broke his neck than I went Roach. Believe me Irish inside boxing is no urban legend.
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You're just making shit up. I'll be damned if you're a day over 16 and have thrown a single punch in your life.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
You're just making shit up. I'll be damned if you're a day over 16 and have thrown a single punch in your life.
17
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
[QUOTE=BCBUD;1291497]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
You're just making shit up. I'll be damned if you're a day over 16 and have thrown a single punch in your life.
JMS you're obviously getting your jollies baiting me but I'm sure that you're not a boxer 110%. I'm the real deal. JMS your 40 years old who albeit attends a weekly MMA/bjj class. It's obvious by your writings that a coach wouldn't put you inside a ring "it's to bad that aggression is so valued in boxing" or better yet "I'm worried that you might have taken one to many in the dome" no lol a boxer. My old coach used say that being a fighter is 80% no fear and 20% fear. He would've never have put you in the ring.I don't have time for academic articles about stretching leave that up to the trainers. What I do Care about is tricks. Take care JMS Merry Christmas
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[QUOTE=BCBUD;1291503]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BCBUD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jms
You're just making shit up. I'll be damned if you're a day over 16 and have thrown a single punch in your life.
JMS you're obviously getting your jollies baiting me but I'm sure that you're not a boxer 110%. I'm the real deal. JMS your 40 years old who albeit attends a weekly MMA/bjj class. It's obvious by your writings that a coach wouldn't put you inside a ring "it's to bad that aggression is so valued in boxing" or better yet "I'm worried that you might have taken one to many in the dome" no lol a boxer. My old coach used say that being a fighter is 80% no fear and 20% fear. He would've never have put you in the ring.I don't have time for academic articles about stretching leave that up to the trainers. What I do Care about is tricks. Take care JMS Merry Christmas
Your 17? That explains everything lol.
The funny thing is my style is pressure. I box until I get bored then I start walking the other guy down if he isn't throwing enough. But I do it with defense first. I can walk right at guys and make them miss. I'm aggressive as fuck, its just how i am, but i dont value my aggression half as much as my defense. My defense is the reason I can be agressive in the first place.
Btw there's a difference between being tough and being stupid. Guess which one you are?
And lol at weekly MMA/BJJ. Look man I enjoy talking shop with the actual boxers on this forum. You just get shit wrong constantly then ignore when people correct you.
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Re: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System
Bcbud you havent shown anyone how to beat my system because you dont know my system and you just reply with jibberish. What ive been trying to say to you is as soon as a guy comes out to box you he is setting you up, surely youve heared of set ups.
When he sets you up he uses a system to do so, same when he defends. Most fighters wont have a system as advanced and complete as this example of archie moore but every fighter has a system.
Dont get me wrong there are times that everyone has to improvise, if you are boxing correctly though then it shouldnt be too often.
If a fight went well for me it was because i established the first punch and used feints to kid them from one setup to the next. If i lost control then i would test his defence by using jabs and feints, hooking off jab & double hooking to body head etc to get him to defend in a predictable fasion as to nail him and establish another punch. And when i did he would go right back into setup phase where one big shot kids him onto the next.
if you keep him respecting by hitting him with hard ones kid him onto the next and the next, if youve just landed a good punch you know more about and can do more with the situation.
The trick is to have the start of your last big shot look like the start of THIS big shot even though they are different punches, the feint must always load the punches to their fullest potential aswell
Dont just bodge the feint positioning really think about it and work on them.
If i couldnt box him to establish a punch i would flurry punch with combos put together that take a glove out of the way for the next punch to try and break through his guard and establish
Control again.
There is a difference between fighting somebody and boxing them, now dont get me wrong maybe not all fighters have a system yet over 20 year ago when i had my first fight i didnt have a system but i have been building a system ever since, adding to it and improving it in the gym all the time.
I suspect others that have been in the fight game as long as me and longer have been doing the same, i would rather overdo the tactical side of my game than underestimate that side of theirs, good luck doing it your way were pound for pound champs randomly try to hit each other and randomly keep winning lol who needs planning. You sound like that retarded 'street fighter' thats never been in the ring but recons he could luck out and accidentally KO any champion at any time. Your boxing dumb dude.
You aint never boxed man
I stick to my origional opinion tell as mqny cute storys about freddie roach as you want we