Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

Grey & Thomas's Fountain of Knowledge

Even though we have a section for important and useful posts, I still constantly find myself going through the "Ask the Trainer" back pages looking up everything from punching technique to any particular vein of knowledge.

Many valueble posts by two of our respected members, Grey and Thomas Tabin are scattered through out countless threads which makes it difficult for someone to find what they are looking for.

So instead of moving several dozen threads to this section, I've decided that if I find something interesting by Grey or Thomas that's not already on this board, I'll move it to this thread for quick reference.

So please forgive my terrible taste for a gimmicky topic name and enjoy this growing collection of posts. If you find an interesting post by either Grey or Thomas, you're welcome to post it here.

Stance and Punching Technique

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

It sounds to me like you are punching too much with your arms. Punching technique is vitally important and would take pages to explain in detail, but let me try a thumbnail version:):

While in your basic stance imagine picture an axis creating a center line through your body from each direction. When punching your hips must precede your shoulders through the center lines; your shoulders must precede your fist. This is accomplished by shifting weight from one foot to the other, and pivoting on the newly weightless toe.

Try these couple tricks. First I am sure you've seen in movies a boxer pawing his nose with his right thumb. There is a reason behind that; from your basic stance throw a straight right, begin with your thumb alongside your nose. Put your weight onto your left leg (kept straight, knee not locked) pivot your right toe sharply inward- this will turn your hips through center. They in turn will turn your shoulders. Keep contact with your nose (the thumb of your right glove alongside it) until in your peripheral vision you see your right shoulder passing your right eye.

For another stand close to the heavy bag, your feet under your shoulders left flat, right heel up a couple inches, arms bent 90degrees, elbows resting on your hips. Drop your right fot flat pivot on left toe to torque your hips and let them drive your fist into the bag. Then drop your left foot flat, pivot on your right toe to drive the right fist Keep doing this, starting slow and building speed. Concentrate on that weight shift and realize it must be done every single time. Finally, find yourself some pint cans and stand on them while some one holds the mitts for you. Punch- throw combination. If you don't punch properly you'll fall off. If done properly you won't; a 12yr old I once trained could do three rounds easy on the cans and he could knock you silly with any punch from any angle because it taught him leverage.

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More on the problem with blocking punches

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The big problem with the ear-muff defense is that ensures that you will continue to take punches. Think about it for a second: you put both hands up against your head and either put your weight on your front foot or lay on the ropes. Your opponent is now free to whale away with impunity because you cannot punch back from that position. When he finishes- gets tired of- punching he can step back, take a breath and start again. See the Calzaghe/Lacy fight.

While on the subject of defense, let me address my pet peeve of the moment. That would be the "high and tight" position of the left hand as a defense against the right hand. You cannot throw a jab from there, not a proper left jab. What you can do is 'drop' your jab (as opposed to properly throwing it from the shoulder), at which point you get hit with a right. Also, keeping your hand and arm in that position requires muscular tension- especially if you have some guy yelling to keep it up there "strong", to block a punch- and this in short order will cause you to tire, drop your hands and get hit with a right hand. Last, you then have your vision blocked by your own left glove so you can't see the right hand coming, and isn't the punch you don't see the one that KO's you?

These days, using the left shoulder to block the right hand is treated like some type of magical thing that only some special boxers can do, that you have to climb some mountain to learn. It used to be the very first thing you learned about avoiding the right hand. Back when universities had boxing teams many of them published instructional books and you can still find them, and see if I'm right about that. Watch old fights. Nobody walked around the ring with their hands over their eyes.

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Warning: Crazy man's Rant

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Okay. Never heard the term before but I'm familiar with the concept. It is very effective against right hands of any and every sort, and the right hand should thus be freed up to block the left hook with the glove,and the hook to the body with the right forearm/elbow. And, of course, the left arm if the dfender is willing to leave himself with no hand to counter with. That used to be much more a universal defense than it is now. I never could figure out how in the world it became unfashionable to teach rolling with punches and using the shoulders.

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nah that aint what they mean by that. you know, that move where one squares up and holds one arm over the body and the other arm in front the face so that the shoulder blocks the left hook to the head. i always knew that as the cross arm myself not sure about the other term.


*note: i should probably warn anyone that reads this that a crazy man rant is shortly on the way here...


you know its funny you say that about the non squared up shoulder block style in your post. my personal take on why we dont see that anymore i think can be traced back to the introduction of the 15 round limit or as i like to say the start of the end. that spawned a new way to win in our sport: points. to think that boxers should now be able to win on points and not by the real way, the knockout way, is to me beyond foolish. in the old way a bout was never over until one man could not continue so one may have been beat to an inch of his life but even then there was no winner or loser until somebody was out. then suddenly you have bird brain panelists and a points system that took what the entire sport was based on and threw it out of a window then left it for dead. the sport had become entirely different and as a result the styles and ways that saw play in the pre 15 round era slowly lost use as the new points-win-boxers adapted to the 15 round system and displaced the old timers. you can even see boxers slow out of the old styles (like the shoulder block) over the years as clear as day. i think the first time we started to see more and more boxers squared up with both hands up on the temples was in i think the 50's or towards the end of the 40's at least. for such a weak style like this to even exist in numbers like it did truly marked the end of boxing as we knew it. you see a style like that would be fast weeded out had the boxers of that time not been such dolts. but as you can see this style soon took over completely and sunk the sport even further down the drain. so bad is this today that you wouldnt see a boxer of this era set up a punch if you let him have a 15 minute head start. the amateur ranks make me blue in the face and dont even mention the pro boxers to me. i ultimately blame the introduction of the 15 round points sytem. for this reason id be cold dead in the dirt before you ever see me score a round on tv -- i refuse. to sum up the demise of a sport i love so much has left a sour taste in my mouth and now i need a smoke. see you around people.

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Tips and Advice

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

I have problems breathing and my nose is kind of odd-shaped and it is all related to not seeing hooks, left hooks, coming. The right hook starts from so far away that its generally visible but that left hook will sneak up on you. I think that there are three solid ways to avoid left hooks, even if you don't see them coming.

First and foremost is to stay out of range unless you are working. Second, when in range, keep your right hand at home, ready to block that hook. Third, and this is the best advice I can give and I don't know if I can explain it properly.

See, a human can only throw one punch at a time. Can't throw the left while the right is still out, and the opposite is true as well. You anticipate...if he throws a right you expect a hook behind it. The glove should be up, and you turn in putting the weight on your left leg. This turns you inside his hook and puts you in place to counter with your own.

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In regarding the shoulder roll, and the stance required to do it right:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

I am not sure what you mean by that term... I assume you mean the left low, right high, roll the shoulder defense made popular by Toney and Mayweather?
Look, this is not rocket science. Back in the day, EVERYBODY did it that way. Check the old college boxing manuals-they did it that way in the 1940s and 1950s.
Do not ever reach out with your right hand to parry or block punches. Angle your left foot so you are not squared up- turn your left hip. You cannot roll your shoulder if you are squared up.
The hardest parts are picking off body blows with your left arm and catching the left hook.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

I've noticed that its difficult for some guys to roll not because of the actual movement it takes to do it but because they arent in a stance suited for doing it best in the first place. For me it always worked smoothly when had my hip in front almost totally sideways like burley (the only guy ive ever seen stand so sideways) and so that i wwas leaning just a bit on my back foot so that my front (left) shoulder was slightly higher than then my right. Very old school stance you'll see it alot in the 20's, 30's fighters. This makes me naturally hard to hit with rights which was always nice. Its very natural to just roll away from them since, from that stance, you are already very hard to reach with a right (literally they have to REACH) and because im so sideways the shoulder can be turned in front of the face almost instantly. Also the right uppercut counter after rolling comes off extremely smooth from this stance. Its the most natural thing to see that counter after rolling the shoulder in such a fashion.

But you see the real sceret to the shoulder roll is not in blocking punches with your shoulder. See its really preformed more like a slip than a block. where youre rolling away from the right hand and not just eating it on your shoulder. The shoulder coming in front of the face is actually just a sort of a side effect of the rolling away movement and not the primary thing.

I'm starting to see more fighters trying to use the shoulder roll. andre berto and jean pascal spring to mind. They're pretty ineffective to me though because they stand straight up in the air like a stick and try to forcibly push their shoulder up to cover the head. They end up just eating the punch because this forces them to block and dissallows the rolling away motion so critical to the shoulder roll. because they have no rolling away motion, the right uppercut which comes off of the shoulder roll becomes difficult for them to throw and thus pretty ineffective.

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As a teacher...

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Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw

I'm often told I am a trainer's nightmare, I switch stances all the time, forget to keep my chin behind my jab and when I try to box how I am told to, I feel uncomfortable and out of control. Should I box my way or just keep working the way people keep telling me to

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

As a teacher, I make a point to explain the hows and whys of everything I try to teach. I don't expect anybody to take my word for anything that I cannot explain the reasoning behind. At the same time, I tolerate no argument. Ask me questions- I'll give you answers. Tell me if something doesn't feel right. We'll work on it. Everybody is fallible and everyfighter is different. It is not impossible that I've made a mistake in my approach to a specific individual.
But don't argue with me. Now time for that.
Now, in your situation, consider this. He knows more than you do. That is why you went to him to teach you. If you want to learn, listen. If you want to get hurt, keep your chin up, keep crossing your feet and so on. That is the difference between a "boxer" and somebody that thinks they can fight.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

hey grey i know that kid that loves to argue and wont hear you out for even a second pretty good. i used to be that kid once. i always thought i knew more than the trainers. i think the thing to do with a kid like that is to sit down and show them some tapes. this is so they can see for themselves with there own two eyes whats what. show them some tapes of joe louis knocking people out left and right and lets see them argue with that.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Me, too. The best kid I ever trained could never understand the value of going any direction but forward. Until he saw McGirt, Ricardo Lopez, among others.
I'm not always right and I am not unwilling to admit it: over time you find a better way of doing things than you had before...But in the gym I will not sit there and debate what I am trying to convey. The next step is after gym time, then it becomes "sit down and look at great fighters proving what I am teaching." (is that convoluted as hell or what?)\
I don't expect anyone to belive on faith what I am selling- their life is at stake. You always have to prove it, but there is a time and place for everything.

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Take your destiny into your own hands:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

Most trainers just don't care. Paint it however you like but if a fellow comes into a gym and paid good money to do it he wants to learn how to box not just dick around on the floor. If a trainer doesn't pick up on that then he is either too lazy or just doesn't care about you. The end result is a very disorganized gym that is more like a hangout spot than it is anything else.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

yeah that cold shoulder trainers hand out is no good at all. used to happen to me and i think alot of us have experienced it and that really is a shame. the only way around this is to take control over your development as a boxer. you got to learn on your own and i know that sounds hard but believe me, such a thing is very much within your reach. forget being some dependant sap sitting on the sidelines, those bum trainers wont care about you even though you know in your heart youre willing to learn and follow your dreams. its time you start watching every tape you can find and really study the thing, you know slow motion and all. when motion picture was first introduced, its advantage for the pugilist did not go unoticed, i think fighters like smcheling and tunney would routinely study tapes. nothing teaches a fighter how to fight like tapes -- its like virtual reality sparring; you get a chance to learn from the mistakes of others and also get a glimpse at what makes them effective in the ring. coming up, i always considered those that came before me to be my real trainers and why not? archie moore taught me things just by watching him i could never have learned from some of the people i was around. anyway you want to apply what you pick up to your bag work and in your sparring, soon through trial and error you will begin to flesh yourself out as a true craftsman. then the trainers have to recognize you and a nameless slouch (at least to them) you'll be no more. my point is, you need to take your destiny into your own hands dont ever let somebody else be in complete control over it. its up to you.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Go back and re-read what Thomas wrote,then double it for me. He said it exactly as I'd have said it.
I have seen it happen so many times in gyms that it is sickening; some young guy (or girl, these days) comes into a gym full of enthusiasm; you very rarely wander into a boxing gym unless you meant to be there. These prospects come every night and jump rope and do situps and hit the bags and work hard. But they are doing everything wrong and nobody tells them anything to help them and they don't know. Eventually they get to spar and it never goes right: not that they all get pounded, but the little mistakes they make all the time keep them from being involved in the sparring. Nobody tells them what went wrong, so they try harder and next time its worse. Next thing that kid full of promise shows up only 2,3 times a week and is clowning, then you don't see them anymore.
It is really unfair because too often it isn't talent or desire or work ethic that determines champions. It very often could be a lazy or overworked or less than honest trainer who ignores some kid, can't make timwe or keeps him around for target practice for "better" boxers. Thomas is 100% correct; make the effort invest the time and don't be afraid to teach yourself

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On Training:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

You have to know your body. What pace do you fight at? Are you very tensed when you fight or is your body relaxed? You have to know what youre trying to accomplish strategically because thats what you will be asking your body to do for you. Try to get a guage of this because you want to get your body just right to accomplish what it needs to without over or under training. Over training is a pretty big problem and just as bad as not doing enough. The point is that you shouldnt just train just for the sake of training. Train smart.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

A constantly moving head not only can be timed, but it also wastes your energy and clutters your mind making it harder for you to think because of those frantic movements your being busy with. This is bad because over time it slows your reaction time and ability to think on your feet; all that frantic motion. How soon then before you start eating punches you shouldn't even be eating in the first place?

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the things i see is most fighters will waste so much energy when fighting. i see all kinds of slipping punches that arent even there and wiggling of the arms, randomly bouncing around the ring: this kind of thing does have a price and you will start to feel it sooner or later no matter how conditioned you are. look at joe louis and notice how much energy he wastes. the answer is none. people like to say he moves around like a stiff zombie but he really is just being economical. in this way, joe could probably box 70 rounds straight since he is so smooth out there.[/font]

my point is, the style in which you guys box with these days is the cause of your stamina problems. your style uses up so much energy in order to pull off that you absolutely have to excerise like a triathlete. i tend to just stand in front of my opponent, not bouncing, not shaking, selecting my punches and specfic defensive reactions carefully. sure i look boring (thats what im told) but i can go longer than most and think with more clarity since im not occupying my mind with all kinds of crazy movements for my body.[/font]

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Once again Thomas is right on the money: if you take the time to read up on and study the old-time greats and how they fought and, more important, how they thought, you'll learn that efficiency in motion was a prime consideration. You only slip punches that are thrown and then only when you intend to do something. You throw punches to land them and any judge that gives credit for punches thrown and missed is a detriment to the sport. [/font]

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Watching Fights:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

well i honestly think watching tapes are essential to the development of any fighter. for one they bascially plug boxing directly into your brain by way of seeing how things happen in the ring, what fighters tend to do, what fighters tend to excel at, and when (and how) they make mistakes. this sort of thing is invaluble; learning the logistics of boxing, as often and as much as you can.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

if i may be allowed to give a little promoting here (my check arrived in the mail) go back and read grey's posts on the matter of boxing. nobody has the logistics of boxing down quite as well or presents them in an understandable manner. i myself try but i go off on a bunch of theory type stuff. check his forum out.

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[quote=ThomasTabin;42466]mostly i would learn from every tape and every silent film i saw and not from any one boxer. the mystery of the sport is hidden inside every bout you see from leonard dorin to barney ross. you must look closely.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

but i am reminded now of the time when as a boy i met the profoundest chess player that there was around my way. whenever i would play him he would violently tear me to shreds with an ominous kind of calm that i had only seen at the end of old west shoot out movies. he was sharp. even in times that i had captured more of his material and was (at least i assumed so) in the seat of power - maybe a rook here, a few pawns there, perhaps even his queen - he would out of nowhere swoop down like a deadly hawk and defeat me every time without fail. for a while i used to think he was some kinda cheat -- i mean how does he suddenly beat me as easy as he does even when i would seem to be ahead -- but the man was no cheat, he was simply that sharp. i only played him a few times and never saw him after those bombardments but the questions of how he did this to me would spin around in my mind for years. i would later come to find that in truth every move that i would make was not made by me but instead by him. yes i would take my bishops or whatever and move them around myself but only ever because he would draw me out to do so. he would leave open say a rook for me to take from him (and i would like a dummy) or put a bishop in the line of my queen to make me move around my pawns in front to make her safe (and i would like a dummy) and by way of this he would deliberately manipulate my distribution of material to ultimately make a defensive lapse for that one final blow. every move i made was shepherded by his invisible hand and he would walk me into invisible traps i had no idea were even there. this lesson i would translate to boxing but also for the many other facets of life. because truly life is like boxing and boxing is truly like chess. this i think is the real prize to take from the sport, not the fame or money, but the revelation of strategy.

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[quote=ThomasTabin;35889]at the gym was always just another day at the office. once you grow out of that romantic phase (we all do) in boxing you either 1. start to view this as an occupation like any other -- as tony zale as cool as ever once said when asked of his name and profession at a navy boot camp, "anothony zaleski; pugilist, middleweight" -- or 2. you simply come to your senses, quit boxing and join the real world. eventually we all make 1 of the 2 choices.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

boxing is a good thing. kids start it up because they have some grand romantic like notions of what they think boxing is and only then ever continue to do it once they realize and embrace how far from reality that idea is - either that or quit. most get out of it because they never had the idea of a good work ethic and discipline with them to begin with. at an age ilke 5, he is probably still in that romantic stage so you want to just be sure you learn him on the value of discipline and work ethic. that i think is the most important thing to take from boxing, more important than anything else. its a good time to get those things in him before he gets to an age where so many of us lacked it and needed it most.[/font]
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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

i also think its important to dehumanize (that even a word?) boxing. how else can you get over the harsh reality inside the ring? when i fight, i fight as if i am fighting not an opponent, but boxing itself. as if i were trying to beat my best score. not making mistakes, setting up your shots, it isnt about getting the best over someone to prove how tough you are, playing the game is an end in itself.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

fear is a natural thing. when you first start to box youre full of it; youre not sure what youre really even doing, the guy keeps tagging you on the beak and just how the hell are you supposed to stop that seems to be completely out of your reach. each round passes by like a whirlwind of confusion where you cant tell up from down. anyway the main point here is that all of your fear and anxiety comes directly from your confusion which ultimately comes from your inexperience. hopefully after some time in boxing you will have learned that you are the one who is in total control over what happens to you in the ring -- not your opponent. that is, you only ever get hit when you made a mistake. understanding things in this manner, you box with the idea in mind to never make mistakes which removes the elemnt of being in a street brawl for your life and replaces it with a mind set that all the greats utalize, that of putting together a puzzle. whens the last time you ever got scared putting together a puzzle?

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Stance:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by Sharla

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by Sharla [SIZE=2

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I'm not sure it makes much difference assuming I take my left foot off the ground, pivot to let my foot go out a bit a little as I push sideways with my right, land with my left foot in it's new position and then follow with the right. I can see if my right was pointed in to the left more it'd be hard.

Perhaps I also naturally let it pivot out without meaning to often since my coach often reprimands me for letting that happen. Circling left is not something I guess I practice often as we only have one southpaw in our gym and I don't spar him more than once a month or so.

Do you see it being a lot easier with your right foot pointing out initially rather than pivoting as you are moving?

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sharla, watch fighters like bernard hopkins or floyd mayweather (2 of the best pound for pound fighters in recent memory i should add) and notice how they effortessly can circle left. notice that they arent standig facing foward as your coach instructs. by standing so squared up you movement gets comprimised. If you get the chance to, try and ask him why a fighter like bernard hopkins (who essentially stands sideways) is such an incredible boxer and why he thinks his method of boxing is superior to bernard's. I hope i'm not stirring up trouble by saying this but its best that you gets all that information, and you wont get it by blindly following everything your trainer says. trainers tend to be pretty egotistical when it comes to thing like teching boxing (if you even hint at the possibility that they might be wrong they get all huffy and take it as an insult to their worth as a teacher)

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

the moves themselves are meaningless. it takes a complete and absolute knowledge to apply them properly, just knowing what the moves are themselves wont actually do anything. the moves mostly posted here are only what happens on the surface; you may know many things but if you lack the wisdom underneath those many things to link them all together, in the end, you know nothing at all. the boxing world is rich with people like this.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

its like a freind of mine would say about it, "smart dumb motherfuckers" ;D

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[quote=ThomasTabin;12248]you could hit with all the force in the world but it would all just be a big waste unless you can actually land the thing. say you have a good punch, maybe even downright great punch, if you find yourself unable to get it into it's target or if your opponent saw it coming -- in effect allowing him to brace himself for the impact, if not simply rolling away from it -- your punches are all bark no bite. sure you might look scary on a heavy bag, but a bag is not hardly the same thing as a thinking and adapting opponent. its all about getting the punch home and with that power follows naturally as a result.[/quote]

Defense:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

lots of people are scared to break a nose and to that i say, benny leonard had 212 bouts and a nose that stuck out like a sun dial but one look at the man and you see not one bend or twist on that sucker. in 212 bouts not one man could hammer that monument of a nose on his face. the moral of the story is: defense, defense, defense

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Quality over Quantity:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

i had this thing for a while called...uh, shin splints i think was the term. it lasted a few months, had to go see a doctor and everything. the problem was all the roadowrk i had been doing, something to the tune of 6 miles or so on that hard concrete and not to mention the old beat up chuck taylors that certaintly seen prouder days i was running in. my main problem was that i would "work through the pain" which seemed real rocky balboa of me at the time but this kind of mentality eventually messed my ankles up so bad i could not even walk without pain. i learned a very good lesson about training as a result -- quality over quanity. anyway the big problem is that when you run you want to make sure youre nice and warmed up first; you need to stretch for a while. next big thing is you want to start off slow to get your legs used to the strain of running. after that just make sure you at least have some good shoes that help to absorb some shock (example: anything but chucks) and you should be set. for the problem you have now: just make sure to ice the area real good and if its very bad take some anti inflamtory pills. all this was straight from the doctors mouth that i went to see.

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Look for punches:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Do you think fighters can be trained to take a better punch Physically and Emotionally, Id like to hear your veiws.Plus to what degree.

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i thnk that fighters should be taught to be on the look for punches and to have that as the primary concern while bxing. it sounds obvious but some guys dont do it and if youre not boxing with that 'defense first' mindset it makes you often get caught by suprise with punches that otherwise shouldnt never be landing. this mentality allows you to roll with punches because you see them coming and that in itself (seeing the punch coming) gives you a better chin as youre able to prepare yourself for the blow.

its my theory that all the guys who supposedly had good chin also had very good eyes in the sense that they saw punches coming.

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You're right, I think that it applies to applies to a lot of guys, Roberto Duran comes to mind. He was especially hard to hit with a clean punch as he was always slipping, twisting and turning with the punches.

I know that this following quote comes from a thread that is already on this board, but it's so good that I had to include it here:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

I think whats so interesting about Burley is his upper body movement in combination with his footwork. He moves around the ring, but not so fast that he isn't always set. This means that, through this, he can use the ring while still maintaining an ability to move his upper body. Something you won't see Ray Robinson or Ali doing because they're moving too fast to be set enough to preform these movements.

Well that makes him infuriatingly hard to hit. Smith misses essentially all of his punches and not only just that, he misses them big. Sometimes by a few feet.

This is something that is only accomplishble with a stance like Burley's. There are fighters like Ricardo Lopez or Barrera who use the ring and are incredible defensively but are unable to preform the upperbody movement that Burley can. Thus they can't make an opponent miss as badly as Burley can.


and because of that, they can't make an opponent reach as hard as Burley can.


Thats because the harder you are to reach the more an opponent will commit into his punches. You can see the way Burley is "pulling" Smith into him. That is something a squared up fighter can never do.

The general idea behind Burley's strategy and stance seems to me that - and correct me if you see something else - to pull your opponent into you and thus force him to reach with his punches, making him vulnerable.



There is an episode of The Way We Were with Joe Walcott and Joe Louis. They show on the screen the Knock down Walcott gave Louis in their second fight and Walcott says that he was leaning away knowing that he would pull Louis' jab enough to able to throw his right hand over it.

Schmeling did the same thing to him.

Not surprsing that all of these fighters share the same type of stance and, with that, the ability to "pull" fighters into them.

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Recently I was going over some interesting things that I pulled off of the internet which kind of reminded me of Thomas's thoughts:

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Walcott, Bivins said, had a frustrating technique he employed to get you to step forward as he connected with his right. Joe somehow moved his body in a manner that gave the appearance to his opponent that he was starting to back up, when all he was really doing was shifting his weight...Bivins stated that when you would begin to take that initial step forward upon seeing this, Walcott would crack you with the right. It was unexpected, and walking into the punch made it hurt even worse.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The fear is only in the anticipation. You are afraid now and that is normal, especially in somebody starting late. That's why most fighters start young: kids are stupid and fearless. But even then, and this tends to be real true among guys that act very tough, that fear- knowing on Monday that you spar (or fight) such-and-such on Thursday chases lots of guys out of the gym.
I never tell anybody not to box so take this in that light: Find a gym that has sparring, even if its a "white-collar" type gym and get in shape. Learn the punches, put your work in, and stand at ringside and watch other guys spar (this is where a "fighting" gym is better- you see it for real). Get close so you get a real feel for it. If that doesn't make you want to get in there and try your hand, then you ain't cut out for this and that's that. No shame in it because it isn't for everybody, and at least you got into condition. But, most likely, after you've put in several weeks on the bags and jumping rope, it'll pull you in and you'll have to give it a try.
If you do, you'll get it, but you'll have your chances to return the favor, and, at the end of the day, you'll have answered questions about yourself you haven't been able to answer elsewhere. That's worth a couple punches in the mouth and a nosebleed. Any day.
Good Luck.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Sadly, there are far too many gymsyou could end up in where there'd be no difference in whether or not you were taken seriously.
There are many gyms that operate as health-club boxing type gyms for the bulk of the time, to pay the bills. So they would take you seriously- way to seriously for what is an aerobics class.
To be taken seriously in a "fight" gym you have to be serious; not acting like some movie clown but working during your work out and not just doing the routine. Work hard physically and mentally and you'll be ahead of the game.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

When you are just starting walk a very brisk mile and build from there. A good goal- realistic, doable and sufficient- is a good three mile run three times or four times per week. When preparing for a fight you sharpen your wind. For example you have a 4 round bout upcoming. So you start your timer and alternately run and sprint for 3 minutes. Then walk at a good pace for a minute. Repeat. (i neglected to add "jog"-run, sprint jog -at a reasonable pace)Run four rounds daily.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Start a roadwork program. I've always thought that the long early morning runs are at least as much to instill discipline as anything else. Really three miles is plenty, especially if you walk a lot. Ray Arcel used a program to sharpen the wind which was very similar to this; walk a very brisk half mile, jog a brisk mile, then sprint a half mile, then walk, etc... Work on your technique- especially punching-wise. Box in front of a mirror and make sure your hands are up, that you aren't tipping off your punches, etc.. All the good fighters are counter punchers, even the aggressive types that force the action. The whole idea of it all is this; through your actions to make him throw a particular punch at a particular time so you can counter .

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

In the old days they used to fight lots and lots: A sample from the record of HoF member Fritzie Zivic, from 1938. He fought on the following dates; 1/1, 2/14, 3/7, 3/21, 4/12, 5/29, 6/13, 6/20, 7/9, 7/12, 8/2, 8/12, 8/22, 8/26, ...you get the idea. They learned their trade, got hit less, and didn't come out gunning for the KO every instant. You box, take your time...and get better at boxing. It has ups and downs; personally, I'd fight every day which isn't wise ... Starting out, every 60 days is probably good, gives you time to learn new things between fights.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Could I earn my way back into good graces with a couple combinations that you might find worthwhile?
Jack Dempsey made these famous in the 20s, and both are based off of slipping the opponent"s jab. The first is the "inside triple": to begin slip inside the opponent's jab (so it goes over your right shoulder; put weight on left leg , swing right side forward exactly like throwing a right)with a straight right to the heart. Step sideways w/rght foot, bringing it up even w/the left; at the same time shift the weight over the right leg :this step gives you more power, and if you stay low shifting the wght to rght leg will carry you under the left lead and outside of it as you hook to the solar plexus. The body is then straightened , weight shifted to the left leg and cross the right to the opponents chin. The action here has to be fast and continuous, so I would suggest starting slow and feeling the weight shifts because once you find those its easy.
"Outside Triple"; begin by slipping outside his jab and hooking the left to the stomach ( the way to slip outside is to throw a left hook-this one happens to be a touch wide and to the belly.) Weight should be on the right leg so step in and to the left with the left foot, the weight transfer carrying your body under the lead as you hook the right to the heart. From here straighten the body lifting the left (which should've been carried high to protect you head from his right) (don't need to draw it back or swing your arm , just wght to rght leg torque hips) to his chin. Again the movement must be fast and don't forget to practice getting out after you punch- don't just walk or stop or you'll do it in real.

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advice

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Lets see; yes you could turn pro. You could, tomorrow find somebody some where that would feed you to a lion for a dollar. Bt no, 17 isn't too old to start, though its getting there. Robot-like on your feet? Try pushing with your back foot like in fencing; watch fencers and how they move. Look, you find your stance and it should be where your balance etc is maximized; so keep your feet there no matyter where or when or how far you move. As far as slipping punches...when pracicing always practice with the counter punch otherwise why bother? Also, always move in behind the slip and counter otherwise why bother? When you slip keep one thing in mind; the moves you make are the exact same as a particular punch. Slipping a jab to the inside (over your right shoulder) is throwing a straight right. Over the other shoulder is a left hook. You slip on your feet; you move your head with your feet. Otherwise you will not be able to punch. Twisting and leaning is asinine when you can shift the weight on your feet avoid the punch and counter hard at any point. To the guy that was 5'6" and wanting to get ripped to fight HWs; constantly coming forward, straight into the guns, and having no other choice is a tough row to hoe. You could be an amazing wizard of defense but you will get hit and hurt a lot every fight because you have to constantly press in and stay in range. I read once that Marciano often had to work to get his mind ready to fight and win, knowing that he was going to be walking into a tremendous amount of damage

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No Emotion:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

I read once that the thing that kept Jack Sharkey- whom Ray Arcel called the best pure boxer he'd ever seen at heavyweight- from being a truly great fighter was emotion. He was too emotional, while great fighters operate in the eye of the hurricane. No emotion. I've always been a big believer in this concept.
The first round is the first stone of what you are trying to build, and I know that sounds very trite. Most, if not all, say to go out and land the first punch. For me, unless there is a big skill difference, I'd almost rather get hit the first punch. Keeps me from getting complacent, but that's just me. In that opening round, early, its good to clinch with your opponent, to feel their strength and to see how interested they are in working inside and how good they might be at it. Catch his jab in your glove to see how hard he's popping his punches. Feint a lot to feel out his reactions to your jab, to the idea of you going to his body, and so on. You don't want to throw punches just to throw them because that lets him see your reach and to begin to time you. You want to be just out of range of his punches so that you don't give away any of your defensive and counter ideas.
Watch Ricardo Lopez. He was a great 1st round fighter. But the important thing is that emotion has no place in it. You get hit, don't get mad. Figure out why you got hit and what to do about it. Save the hostility for the appropriate time.

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Joe on training.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

I'm very old fashioned in my views but as soon as I see a fighter, trained by modern methods and with the modern cluster of "specialists" in his camp, that can fight 15 like they used to I'll change my views.
Diet...Lord knows I'm clueless here but I know this. The best conditioned, strongest fighters I've ever seen were poor and poor people eat rice and beans. My experience mostly refers to fighters from Mexico- that is who I grew up watching and reading about- and rice and beans is a staple of the diet there. Emanuel Steward says the same thing; he says he cooks his fighters collard greens, beans and chicken. Jackie McCoy, the great trainer, called beans and rice "earth food" and swore that they made for strong fighters.
Breathing is a curious subject...Lots of fighters forget to breath, especially when they get excited, like in the middle of an exchange or when things are going very well or very badly. This is often an ignored subject but here is what I think, and I learned this from a 69 year old Australian opera singer. She was very scrappy despite being 4' 11" and weighing maybe 98 pounds. (google Elizabeth Sabine).
You breathe through your lungs. Breathe in short gulps of air; the most common way of running out of breath is not from lacking air but from having too much. If you breathe deeply but don't use up and exhale that breath, then your lungs get clogged with "bad air" and you can no longer take full breaths. So take short breaths and exhale fully- like when you punch for instance and don't forget to breathe. Doing this, you can keep your abdomen tight- so body punches don't knock the wind out of you- while moving and breathing easily.
The last reason I think you, like many others on this site, may lack stamina, is that you train to much. Look, the early morning 4 miles of roadwork is as much to build discipline as any thing else. Rocky Marciano didn't run millions of miles but he walked every place he went. Running- alternating sprints, jogging and brisk walking- is to sharpen your wind. You should train every day and not just to prepare for a fight. Stretch in the morning every morning. Run-as explained above- three times a week, or on days you don't spar. Don't jump rope on days when you run or spar- it is over using the legs. When training to fight 4 rounds, train to fight 4, not 10 or your body will not peak properly.
See, training for a fight is not something you begin to do when you learn about a fight. It is something you begin to do the day you begin boxing. A good, hard, sharp hour to 90 minutes a day is fine. Working 6-8 hours a day is foolish. And just get me started on cross training!

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Tom on boxing stance

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

There are tons of stances out there. I am of the opinion that there is only one correct stance and that all other stances are wrong. But this is my line of thinking and I don't expect to turn anybody over. Its up to you. The usual stance that gets pinned as the standard (at least these days) is the standing squared up with your gloves up to your temples. At first glance this stance seems perfect. Your head is well covered up as is the body. You're like some walking fortress it seems. So people take to it thinking they have all the bases covered and they are good to go. Has some limitations though. For one, standing like that you sort of hinder yourself. Your gloves don't need to be tight to the face as though you were blocking. They only need to be there when you actually are blocking! Why hold them up as though to block when the need to block is not present? This is wasteful and it commits your hands to doing a job where they otherwise could (and to my mind, should) be doing something more effective. Like throwing a crisp rising jab. All the great jabs of the sport from Loughran to Tunney to Moore and Burley were rising jabs -- and you cant throw a rising jab if your left hand is up at your head. The jab is so cirtical in my opinion because it lets you control distance and allows you to set up your punches. Standing squared up also affects how well you can jab. If you jab from a squared up stance you jab short. If you jab from a squared up stance and turn the body so as to get more length to your jab you end up tipping off your jab aswell as taking longer to get the punch off as more movements are being involved. try it for yourself and see. If you jab from an almost sideways stance you get much more length on your jab, throw it from the hip so that it will be a hard rising jab, and you tip it off less because the movement is less involved. it also ensures [standing nearly sideways] that your hip and shoulder are in front of your head. This allows for you to use the shoulder roll. Something that would be impossible with your hands to your ears and squared up. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. so that you can lean just away or under from jabs left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance -- you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches. Watch James Toney you will see this.



Ultimately, standing nearly sideways with the lead hand low allows much more. It is very subtle in this way ad at first glance the common eye will not see this. Every man has his own unique ways about his stance but to my mind the only correct stance looks very much like this:

http://web.archive.org/web/200606291...loughran10.jpg


That is Tommy Loughran. I assure you, if Tommy did it, there was good reason behind it. He was one of the most calculating and cunning fighters to live and would set you up and knock you dead no lie. Anyway, I think this stance is the right one. All the true greats in the history of the sport fought out of a similar stance From Carpantier to Floyd Mayweather believe it or not.

I leave it up to you.

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More on stance:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

Donny I know how you feel. The old style is just not taught by anyone. Very hard to find anything to give you an idea of how to fight this way.

I think ultimately the thing to remember about the old style of fighting is that its a product of the bareknuckle/early glove era. Its more of a set of attitudes than it is anything really. Long rounds and barely padded gloves create interesting fighters and fighting styles. You can imagine how drastically fighters today would have to change their styles to adapt and survive those conditions. For one thing being hit anywhere hurts enough already but when you're being hit with a 5oz glove one mistake could be the last. Not only that but gloves this small could barely cover up enough of the head for blocking or offer the padding necessary to absorb the impact of punches. Being punched on your arms by something that was essentially a thinly padded fist would also be very painful. This is one of the primary differences between today's fighter and the fighters from back then. Today fighters stand still and absorb punches on their arms and gloves but in the early days of fighting the first defense came from using distance with blocking used only as a last resort. Two very different philosophies. Basically - and you will see this in the stances of fighters from the 20's/30's - the body was positioned in such a way to maximize its ability to slip and roll away from punches. In essence, to be able to create distance from punches instead of standing there and absorbing them.

This is why you will see them standing at a slant and leaning slightly down and away from their opponents with their hands lowered. Being slanted provides a much smaller target area for your opponent. Leaning slightly down and away enhances distance and makes it easier to get behind and underneath your shoulder. Carrying the hands low enhances your vision and allows the upper body to move freely and with greater ease (since your arms aren't glued to you).

Everything there is dedicated to making the fighter hard to land punches on whereas today the popular idea is to soak up the punches on your arms and gloves instead of preventing them from landing on you completely.


Anyway thats one of the big things and also one of the first things to consider if you're interested in the older styles. There are more things like how that stance relates to punching and the way this stance allows you to progressively pull your opponent's punches closer/make him reach and therefore vulnerable to counters.

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Tom on the Shoulder Roll:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

I've noticed that its difficult for some guys to roll not because of the actual movement it takes to do it but because they arent in a stance suited for doing it best in the first place. For me it always worked smoothly when had my hip in front almost totally sideways like burley (the only guy ive ever seen stand so sideways) and so that i wwas leaning just a bit on my back foot so that my front (left) shoulder was slightly higher than then my right. Very old school stance you'll see it alot in the 20's, 30's fighters. This makes me naturally hard to hit with rights which was always nice. Its very natural to just roll away from them since, from that stance, you are already very hard to reach with a right (literally they have to REACH) and because im so sideways the shoulder can be turned in front of the face almost instantly. Also the right uppercut counter after rolling comes off extremely smooth from this stance. Its the most natural thing to see that counter after rolling the shoulder in such a fashion.

But you see the real sceret to the shoulder roll is not in blocking punches with your shoulder. See its really preformed more like a slip than a block. where youre rolling away from the right hand and not just eating it on your shoulder. The shoulder coming in front of the face is actually just a sort of a side effect of the rolling away movement and not the primary thing.

I'm starting to see more fighters trying to use the shoulder roll. andre berto and jean pascal spring to mind. They're pretty ineffective to me though because they stand straight up in the air like a stick and try to forcibly push their shoulder up to cover the head. They end up just eating the punch because this forces them to block and dissallows the rolling away motion so critical to the shoulder roll. because they have no rolling away motion, the right uppercut which comes off of the shoulder roll becomes difficult for them to throw and thus pretty ineffective.

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More on stance:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by Grand

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

I agree with everything you said there.

I once held my right hand up around my cheek for the same reasons. Like you say it allows you to parry the jab or block the left hook in least amount of time possible as the hand only needs to travel a couple inches for either maneuver. One problem I encountered with this tactic (and I imagine that you also have) was that to throw a right hand - a real right hand with full weight and leverage - I had to cock back my hand. I would have to do this because the right hand was not placed in a natural position to punch. Simply put; you can't punch from your cheek. Not with any real force anyway. The right hand naturally wants to be thrown with the hand at around chest level (right side) just under the neck.

That scares a lot of people to think about holding the right hand down there because they depend on blocking and not on slipping/rolling and controlling distance. The great irony of it is that by depending on blocking as your main means of defense you get you hit much more than you should. Slipping/rolling and controlling distance is the superior way to defend yourself from punches. Thus a proper stance would be one that best allows the body to slip/roll and control distance. I can't say that holding the hands up to the head does this.

I agree with your point about making the body a smaller target by standing 'diagonal'. This flows back the underpinnings of smart boxing in that you should show your opponent the least amount of targets to hit as possible. This way you can control where he will try to punch to with greater predictability. If you give him many options he will act unpredictably; if you give him only some options you take away the bulk of his punches and leave him in a predictable state.

Anyhow thanks for the response Grand. Its obvious to me that you approach boxing in very well thought out way.

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You raise good points which i never even thought of before! ;D
I been thinkign about what you said for a few days and it does make sense! the arm does naturally want to be thrown from beneath your chin but like you said this dos leave yoru face open. the slipping and rolling thing makes sense aswell if you can perfect it ;) i think the slipping and rolling tactic can be very hard to perfect but when done so it would be very effective. if your like me and have not perfected it ;D then you tend to eat alot of glove
well thank YOU for the reply ;) made me think about it a bit more

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yeah you definitely would eat lots of glove. You would need to drop your left hand and use your shoulder to block the right hand. With the left hand low and the right hand at chest level you will notice that your upper body can move more freely. Your arms are not bolted to your body like a robot and you can bend at the waist to get under or away from punches with greater ease. Because your gloves are not around your face they don't obstruct your vision in any way. This kind of defense depends less on taking the punches on the arms and gloves and more on seeing them coming and slipping just enough to avoid it entirely. Something will see Floyd Mayweather do tonight against De la Hoya.

Through things like shadow boxing you can get a feel of this style with your body and in time it becomes very instinctive. It very well should be since this stance is a natural position for the body. You will notice this in your arms; they won't get heavy and tire you out because you don't have to hold them up all the time. Many people like to say this style is only for the super quick or slick but thats all bull. Like grey used to say its not some boxing magic. Up until the late 1940's it was the standard way to box.

But I wouldn't recommend this style unless you really know the in and outs of it like you say. It can be extremely effective but the slightest miscalculations can get you clipped. The trainers out there are pretty ignorant when it comes to this so you won't get much out of them trying to learn it. I say watch some tapes and good luck if you're thinking about trying it.

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The Dempsey Roll:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

I know that Dempsey loved to lean away and under from punches by moving his upper body back towards his right. It loaded up his right hand and made him extremely hard to reach. The Dempsey roll would come after. With his upperbody positioned over towards his right side (which by the way he stood was behind him - he stood almost sideways) he would weave low so that weight would be over his left leg. This movement slipped punches and allowed him to load up on his left hook.

The whole theme of this is to make the opponent miss whilst putting the body's weight in a position to strike. If you notice of Dempsey, he always had full leverage on every punch. You must start out in a stance similar to his to do that.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

Dempsey did it in every fight. He was also hard to hit and had very underrated defense. Too bad that because he liked to press forward he gets billed as being some kind of a savage incapable of thought. He was pretty cagey in my opinion.

As for the move it doesn't limit your vision. I'm not sure how it would. And you're right that it leaves you in a position where you can't punch but only for the left hand. If you've seen any Dempsey you know that he likes to spring up from that crouch with a right hand. Dempsey hit pretty hard last I remember.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2...8200211yg5.jpg

He looks pretty open but know that Dempsey's upperbody was constantly moving and he used a shoulder roll. Tunney as quoted saying that Dempsey was one of the hardest fighters to hit with his right. Kept catching air or shoulder.

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The snag-line:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver.

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Ah, I call that one the snag-line. Its a good move but you must watch for your opponent's left hook as he has just completed the weight shift involved in throwing his right and is thus in position to sling his left hook at you. Ha I remember Rafael Marquez getting knocked down with just that: a left hook after "snag-lining" Israel Vasquez's Right hand with his jab. Forget if it was in the first or the second fight - probably the first.

this makes the snag line a pretty dangerous strategy to employ. For both guys. A messy move.

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Rolling with the punches:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

You're supposed to roll with punches that are blocked on the arms. What happens when fighters keep their arms and gloves in tight to the body and sides of the head is that they will just sit there and absorb punches. You're never supposed to just sit there and absorb punches. By having your arms so tightly locked to your body you hinder your ability to throw punches: how can you throw punches if both your arms are busy blocking? You're not in a position to punch.

By rolling with the punch while blocking you take much of the steam off of their punch as it no longer has a flush target to transfer all of its force into cleanly. By rolling away you also put yourself into a position to punch and therefore counter. For example you block a left hook on your right arm and roll with it to your left as you block (weight now on left foot) putting you in a position to throw a left hook yourself. Think about that for a second and work it out in your head.

Today its pretty popular to just sit there and absorb punches. In the 20's or 30's you would have small 8 oz nothing gloves that did not much more than cover the fist. You wouldn't want to get hit with one of those anywhere. You also notice that fighters of these eras never held there arms up to the sides of their heads. They depended on slipping and rolling more than they did on blocking and it shows in the way that they fought.

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Circle Left:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by Sharla

I'm not sure it makes much difference assuming I take my left foot off the ground, pivot to let my foot go out a bit a little as I push sideways with my right, land with my left foot in it's new position and then follow with the right. I can see if my right was pointed in to the left more it'd be hard.

Perhaps I also naturally let it pivot out without meaning to often since my coach often reprimands me for letting that happen. Circling left is not something I guess I practice often as we only have one southpaw in our gym and I don't spar him more than once a month or so.

Do you see it being a lot easier with your right foot pointing out initially rather than pivoting as you are moving?

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sharla, watch fighters like bernard hopkins or floyd mayweather (2 of the best pound for pound fighters in recent memory i should add) and notice how they effortessly can circle left. notice that they arent standig facing foward as your coach instructs. by standing so squared up you movement gets comprimised. If you get the chance to, try and ask him why a fighter like bernard hopkins (who essentially stands sideways) is such an incredible boxer and why he thinks his method of boxing is superior to bernard's. I hope i'm not stirring up trouble by saying this but its best that you gets all that information, and you wont get it by blindly following everything your trainer says. trainers tend to be pretty egotistical when it comes to thing like teching boxing (if you even hint at the possibility that they might be wrong they get all huffy and take it as an insult to their worth as a teacher)

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Counterpunching:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Here is a very very simple way to shorten the arms of an opponent with long arms and a busy jab; the funny thing is that it is THE natural counter in boxing and very difficult for him to counter.
Here is the premise: the motion you make to slip his jab so that it passes over your right shoulder- slipping it to the "inside" position- is the exact same motion as you make to throw a straight hand. He jabs, you step slightly forward and left with your left foot shifting the wt to your left leg, etc...Your step far enough to drop your body low enough so that you are able to drive a straight to his heart; in the early days of boxing this was a legitimate ko punch and still would be were the average "modern" fighter schooled well enough to throw it. Throw this punch and come back with a left uppercut or weave outside with a hook to the body or chin. However you do it this punch will discourage his jab in short order.

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hey grey, ive been thikning more and more recently that getting your opponent to commit to his jab - that is, so he really steps in with it - should be the main starting point for the direction of the fight to unfold from. so many nice counterpunches to use should this be established. you would have to stand so that you lean a bit back and to the right (the traditional stance) though as this is the extra distance that they try to compensate for.

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Thinking:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

in boxing there are only so many possible outcomes to every action preformed in the ring. it is a closed system with rules that never change. there are a limited amount of punches that can be thrown and a limited amount of reactions that the opponent can respond back with. when i jab there are only so many things that my opponent can do in response. when i hook there are only so many things he can do in response. this makes him predictable. i can position him and set up him because i know everything he can do to me and by thinking several steps in front of him i can never be suprised. to demonstrate this thought process indicative of all strategic greats in boxing and beyond i will post an excerpt of�* grandmaster alexander kotov's thought process during the 1939 ussr championship

"What do I do here? His king is badly placed, but I still have to exploit that. I have the d- and f-files, a strong knight at d4. Must hurry before he can slip away with the king to safety at b8. His last move was rook to e4 attacking the knight. Defend it by 25.Qf2? He'll go Rd8. No, then I go 26.Qf6+ winning. So he'll go Qg5 or Qe5 centralizing, and then what do I have?

Wait a minute. What about 25.Nf5+? He has no choice, takes and I go Rxf5. Then he can't take rook--mate on d6 by the queen. But he doesn't have to take. What do I have after Qc6 or Qc7? A piece gone. What about 25.Rf5 instead? Well we are playing for mate, so a rook down wouldn't matter if it's sound.

If his queen moves then Qg5+ with a powerful attack. Nor can he meet the rook sac by e5, since we go Qg5+ Kf8, Ne6+. So he has to take the rook and I take on f5 with knight, check. Then his king is drawn forward. But what if he doesn't take? Say Qd6; but then I win the queen by Rxf7+ Bxf7, Nf5+.

So he definitely has to take, and then I must have something. An interesting position! So, 25. Rf5 exf5 26.Nxf5+ Kf6 (26...Ke6 makes no difference) 27.Rd6+. Two lines. Takes the knight or rook blocks. If 27...Re6 the win is easy: 28.Qg7+ Kxf5 29.Bc2+ and now 29…Kf4 20.Qg3 mate, or 29…Re4 Qf6+ Kg4 31.Bd1+ and mate next move.

So there remains 27. Kxf5. Then what did I see?�* Oh yes! 28.Qf3+ Rf4 (28…Kg5 and white wins simply, 29.Qf6+ Kh5 30.Bd1+ Rg4 31.Qh6 mate) 29.Qh5+ Ke4 30.Bc2+ Ke3. Can he really get away safe from there? No, there's 31 Rd3+ and wherever he goes 32. Rd2+ and mate by 33.Qe2. It's all there. Just check once more. How do I stand on the clock? Ten minutes left. I'll check again. After all it's a forced win, so time trouble won't matter too much."

this is called a tree of analysis. essentially this is the process of "if i do this, he does that, when he does that, i do this, then he will do that, so i will do this" one cannot call himself a good boxer until he understands this process at least partially. it is actually simpler than you may think, you just must memorize every punch exchange in boxing, one for orthodox fighting and one for southpaw. there are not many and even less when fighting a southpaw if you take the time to analyze it all. my advice is learn your boxing. how can you ever be good if you never total understanding of the things happening around you, finding yourself confused and incapable when met with things you dont know how to deal with?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

I read once that good boxers play checkers, great ones play chess...
You are new to this, ive it time but never let your brain be inactive. Early on all those hands flying around can be a bit unsettling, as every time you get set to do something a glove bounces off your head and when you become aware of an opening it is gone before you can punch at it. When you get a lull you fire punches anywhere, not caring if they land but glad to have a chance to fire back. You can stay out of range and avoid his punches but you can't hit him either, and to go inside means getting hit, etc...
Practice is where it all begins and ends, doing the same basic moves over and over until they are ingrained in your muscle memory, and at the same time you are training your mind. Start with shadow boxing, in front of a mirror. Imagine a real opponent throwing real punches, avoid them and counter them and do it full on like in the ring, with movement, bobbing weaving, punches slips and parries. You are not only able to see and correct your technical mistakes but you are teaching your boxing brain to evaluate and react to situations: " I want to stay outsidwe on his guy, use my jab, look to walk him into a right. He's looking to rop his right over my jab, if he can, burt he's really wanting to get close and work his left hook." Now you have an objective, an idea of traps along the way, and your opponent's goal and now you need to set to set taps for him, and so on.
This carries over o your bag work. If you just stand there and punch the heavy bag that's how you'll fight. You have to practice moving in and out, footwork, positioning yourself to land a paticular punch or combination, all the whil being aware of his intent o hit you. So you begin be slipping his jab, stepping in with a right under the heart, weave out wit a hook to the belly and straighten up to land a right hook over his left shoulder, and then you can step safley out of range or throw a hook, etc... The key thing is to always have a scenario in mind and to do it like its real.
Sparring as often as is possible is the most vital thing; spar daily, withany and everyone, just spar. At first you'll be dismayed at your inability to land a decent punch and at how often you get hit, but keep parring especially with people better tan you as you can learn by watching and cetainly by being on the defensiv for lengths of time against somebody that can throw combinations. Pretty soon you'll realize that half the hands in the air have nothing to do with you and can be ignored, and you won't have to think "catch this jab or parry it?", "block his hook or duck under?" because it will be second nature to you. It is now that you begin working on landing your punches, as you have no fear of moving into punching range as you can avoid or deflect or block the majority of punches. All the hours of envisioning couterpunches will pay off; you'll have trained your body to parry to the outside of the jab while hooking to the chin, for example.
Now you can really begin to strategize in the ring; hours in the mirror have taught you that a feint this way makes you look open for a right, so you can anticipate his reaction. Your body will be instinctively protecting itself and taking counterpunching opportunities, so your mind is free to think and to analyze.

For all my longwindedness, its just time and practice and training your mind like you train your body.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

i also think its important to dehumanize (that even a word?) boxing. how else can you get over the harsh reality inside the ring? when i fight, i fight as if i am fighting not an opponent, but boxing itself. as if i were trying to beat my best score. not making mistakes, setting up your shots, it isnt about getting the best over someone to prove how tough you are, playing the game is an end in itself.

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Tom's on defense:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

i would tend to stand pretty slanted so that i was just but sideways. right hand at the chest level to parry and to draw jabs, left hand low to draw right hands. he either leads on me so i can counter, or i jab him and try to get him to counter. either way im trying to make him throw punches - and more to the point, trying to make him throw specific punches. this is typically how it goes but it gets more complicated in practice. its tricky trying to keep a guy under your thumb because you cant read minds. if you could you would be unbeatable i guess.

the main thing with defense is that you cannot consider it without also considering other variables. like say, what counterpunch corresponds, what is he trying to set up off of this, what can i set up from this later etc. nothing in boxing is isolated - they all interweave with each other to make up the whole.

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The southpaw jab vs the orthodox jab:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

The southpaw jab vs the orthodox jab is a very large part of fighting between southpaw/orthodox but I think ultimately southpaw/orthodox is won and lost on the Southpaw left straight and the Orthodox straight right. By that I mean everything revolves around the control of this. Either in the form of stopping/avoiding it or setting up counters off of it. Its kind of at the center of southpaw/orthodox and I think the fight is won and lost on how well a fighter handles it.

For example the natural counter for the southpaw jab is the straight right and vice versa either to the body or head (interestingly the southpaw is the one at a disadvantage because his liver is in front of his body, underneath his right arm, and therefore underneath his jab). But anyway this counter is only viable if your opponent is committing enough into his jab to allow you to counter it. So one part of the "jab war" between orthodox and southpaw is in seeing who can counter who's jab with this punch. If a fighter, in trying to win the jab war, commits too heavily into his jab, he puts himself in danger of walking face first into this counter.

Also the two other most effective counters when fighting with a southpaw (speaking as an orthodox fighter) is the right uppercut after slipping under their straight left and the left hook after blocking the straight left on your right arm. These are deadly counters.

Anyway my point is that in southpaw/orthodox everything ultimately comes back to how the left or straight right is handled and that plans should be developed around how to land them and how counter them. The jab is ultimately a means to that end.

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Advice:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Benny Leonard and Henry Armstrong were both KO'd in their first fights; Billy Conn was 13-6-1 after 20. They all ended up doing pretty well, as did Monzon, and Arguello (2-2, KO'd in debut), because they were learning how to fight. Boxing is a whole bunch more than wading in throwing haymakers and splattering opponents; now and again they'd rather not get splattered and have some ideas about you. Get yourself into the best condition you can be in (i don't mean Mr Universe condition but go ten hard fast rounds and want more condition.) because this you can control; make sure your mind knows that you will not get tired. Since you are staying out of the weight room and in the gym, you'll have lots of tim to work over and over again on your defensive moves and your punches; you are developing 'large muscle memory' so that your body reacts seemingly on its own. When you spar take a moment to analyze what is going on in the ring; what is he trying to do to you and what will you do about it? Suppose that as you move about jabbing a bit, feinting more, that it becomes clear that he wants to land the left hook; well that gives you two (at least) choices, to beat the hook with a short right hand or to get under the hook and hook him to the body.... Do you see my point? Don't be in a hurry to punch for its own sake; drive that fear of getting tired out with the knowledge of your condition, and minimize the times you get hit. Condition your body to fight, then keep your brain busy plotting strategy.

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Using the jab:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Not sure exactly what you mean... See, you may throw a jab not so much to land it but to see how he plans on avoiding it. If you jab with a bit of shoulder and hip in it, while pushing off the back foot its more a straight left hand. Are you looking to draw a counter right, or doubling up to discourage one? Jabbing your way in or backing him up with a jab? Using it to take the initiative or to counter and disrupt? The rising jab of Burley, Moore and others is a very damaging counter against a guy who really steps with his jab. Never jab down or across your body. You don't need to land every one, and even if the jab misses throw the right hand/hook, or whatever anyway. Sometimes not jabbing is best- Arguello v Mancini comes to mind. Mancini hoped to slip the jab get in hit the body get out but Alexis didn't jab much or committ much when he did forcing Ray to advance and retreat under fire. Watch Ricardo Lopez, Toney, all the pros. Try to think what they are thinking as you watch what they do and don't do

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Training tips:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Shadow boxing is entirely about developing technique and the mental aspects of the game. The mirror lets you see and correct your flaws. Then get in the ring and fight three rounds against an imaginary opponent and really work. ALL of the old-time trainers said that, if you could only do one exercise, shadow-box.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

You know, so many guys train so much that they neglect the most important part of the body: the brain. I know what you are talking about- guys that hit the bag, do the same combination over and over again, then stand and wait after they punch. They don't realize that you build habits that way. You always have to envision an opponent throwing punches back at you.

I saw this guy in Phoenix back in 04 that really caught my attention. He probably weighed 112 or 115 and he was kind of tall, working the heavy bag. He was watching himself real close in the mirror and working on a series of moves. He'd do them one at a time dissecting them until he was satisfied. Then he spent a couple rounds stringing these moves together, with head feints to get in, stepping around the bag, the whole shot. He really knew how to get the most out of a bag.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Well, you can't be thinking that you'll land all three and he'll stand there and take it :) Just for fun let's run through a couple of scenarios you might work through.

You jab, jab again. At some point he'll try a right over your left- pretty likely, yes? When he does you stiffen your left arm to "leverage" his right up and away from your head while you drop your weight to your right leg- tucking your head behind your left shoulder- then throw a right upper cut to his solar plexus and a left hook to his liver. To get out, get your right glove behind his left elbow and turn him to your left while you step out to your right.

Or, you jab then feint the jab to draw his jab. When he jabs you slip inside it with a short straight right to the heart, then weave to the outside while hooking his body with your left. From the outside you straighten and cross your right to his head and follow with a left hook.

See the idea? You always work your way in and out, always imagining a response from a guy trying to win. Don't just stand there and punch.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

We use the double end bag to get a similar mental excercise,every time you hit it its moving,now if you force yourself to move and circle it...........

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

That's a good way to use the double end bag. Control its movement with your movement and jab and always hit it while its coming towards you.

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The low left hand:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Many- I would venture to say most- of boxing's great defensive fighters fought with a low left hand and in terms of "proper" technical boxing using the shoulder to defend against the right hand is the superior technique as it provides better counter-punchingopportunities and it leaves both hands free to counter. Also there is less damage done tan there is when putting one's left glove against one's head and blocking the right. The idea is to avoid or to deflect as much impact as is possible.
If you watch tpe of Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Walcott, Charles, even James Toney they jab from the hip and it is anything but a light flicking punch. Eddie Futch was discussing the great Holman Williams in an interview and made reference to his rising jab, which hedescribed as a sort of "back handed uppercut." Tape of the fighters that utilized this punch will show that while the left was low they carried their chins well behind the left houlder, fought out of a semi-crouch and had their left hip and shoulder so far forward- towards their opponent- as to be almost sideways.
This makes one very hard to hit with right hands, and makes an opponent walk around and into your right hand if he tries to land his hook. The 'rising jab' comes into play as the opponent jabs; either slip or parry so that his jab goes over your left shoulder, stepping in with the left foot by slightly pushing off the right. The left glove, the left arm straight, comes straight u7p from the hip, timed to meet the foe's cin as he steps in behind the jab you made him miss. This is a very jolting blow, and over time causes considerable damage.
I would also argue that , if done in the manner described above it makes one less vulnerable to right hands, due to the stance and the crouch. In fact it lends itself to drawing and countering the right with a return right to head or body.

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More Advice:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

When you take up boxing its very easy to get worked up and anxious, picture yourself knocking opponents around like Popeye did Bluto. But flexibility trumps big muscles more often than not; today we are infested with a bunch of bodybuilders trained for show not go, but if look at film/pictures of the truly great ones they look like strong wellconditioned athletes but you rarely see a muscle defined until that instant before contact. Also keep in mind that the ultimate objective is to not get hit and to hit. Some people reverse that saying but trust me don't get hit then hit. Keep this in minsd; as you develope as a boxer your strengths and weaknesses and your mindset will come to define your style. Whether you end up swarming forward madly, scurrying and floating jabs, whatever, ALWAYS BE A COUNTERPUNCHER. The best were all counter punchers, even the pressure fighters. You come forward in such a way as to draw a particular response- a jab, a right- that you can slip to get close or land a blow to the opening it provides. I tend to be longwinded and in a hurry and lose my train of thought , but I really hope that that last bit made sense to you? If not feel free to get at me and I'll try again.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

An oldie, to be sure, but an interesting one to drunks on Friday nights 8) 8) To do this combo properly you need to begin in a proper stance; feet under your shoulders , left leg rotated inward , left foot flat, right heel up @ 2" As you jab push off of your right foot, drive the jab arm into complete extension, remembering to bring your right foot up with you, throwing the right as it arrives. Your weight should be over your left leg. Take this opportunity to slide your right foot @ 11/2" to the right, drpping it flat as your weight shifts back and you torque your body back to the right, throwing the hook. Changing the weight on your feet will really help your balance.

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Right hand counter:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Here is a very very simple way to shorten the arms of an opponent with long arms and a busy jab; the funny thing is that it is THE natural counter in boxing and very difficult for him to counter.
Here is the premise: the motion you make to slip his jab so that it passes over your right shoulder- slipping it to the "inside" position- is the exact same motion as you make to throw a straight hand. He jabs, you step slightly forward and left with your left foot shifting the wt to your left leg, etc...Your step far enough to drop your body low enough so that you are able to drive a straight right to his heart; in the early days of boxing this was a legitimate ko punch and still would be were the average "modern" fighter schooled well enough to throw it. Throw this punch and come back with a left uppercut or weave outside with a hook to the body or chin. However you do it this punch will discourage his jab in short order.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

A straight right to the heart is the "natural" counter to a left jab. It works wonders to "shorten" an opponent's left arm, really discouraging him from using that punch. Very simple to execute, as well, because in essence all you are doing is throwing a straight right hand: when you put your weight on the left foot (slide it forward and left a bit if you choose-how much depends on what you intend to do next) and turn your hips and shoulders it should lower your body enough to let the jab go by.

A parry is nothing at all like the Karate Kid. Based on timing- entirely on timing-it is always a minimal movement, often a flick of the wrist. Never reach out to parry- let the punch come to you. Buddy McGirt used to parry a lot and Julio Caesar Chavez used to parry a ton of right hands with his left glove. James Toney, at 168 and 175 especially, used to parry jabs over his left shoulder then bring his jab up and under while pushing forward off his right foot. He scored a knockdown in the 2nd Hembrick fight in this manner.

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Counterpunching:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

any series of punches is to be considered one block of movement and in this way there are often numerous ways to counter him as he transitions from movement to movement.

however, youre worst problem is randomness -- the natural enemy of the counterpuncher. when he randomizes his punches you sink into confusion as he becomes so unpredictable you cant never plan the proper counter to throw. at the bottom of this is your inability to control the tempo of the bout. to do this you got to understand the concept of coercion and persuasion. all strategy from boxing to machiavellian political thought is based on this principle. you see youre opponent is constantly prioritizing in his mind what he should do, what he should not do, how he should do it, when should he do it, why should he do it; all of which based on the information you show him. to demonstrate this effect you need only to look at the example you gave in your post:

"I find its alot easier when countering single shots i.e. the jab but when the opponent throws two or three punches in quick succession i find myself always trading with them."


by succefully countering his jab as you say you have, you must realize that your opponent takes in this information in the form of, "geez this guy keeps nailing me when i jab, i need to stop doing whatever it is that keeps getitn me hit with that counterpunch, i better stop and try something else"

this is the universal effect of counterpunching i.e coercion. by way of penalizing him for certain punches he throws by use of your counterpunch you are forcing him to opt for a different approach because he is getting penalized for his previous efforts. you must understand he isnt just going to keep on doing what it is that allows you to counter him. this manifested itself in the form of your opponent opting now to throw a "1-2" instead of that single jab you penalized him for earlier. realize that you have forced his hand in this option and that it was you that caused him to do this by way of coercion. i stress this greatly because it is important that you understand this fundamental tenet of boxing if you want to be a real counterpuncher as you say.

ok so now that your opponent is throwing this 1-2 of his and you must find a way around it. as noted at the start of this entry, any series of punches is to be considered a single block of movements. in this case you cannot simply counter the jab as a right hand is now coming along with it. you must find a way to negate the effectiveness of the right hand. to do this you may simply use your counters for the right hand creating for yet another coearcion effect if not knocking him out completely, block it with your shoulder so that it is useless of him to throw it, or circle away from it so that it never lands. the key idea to take from this is that you are telling him "hey, dont you see youre right hand isnt being productive for you?" in which case he must yet again choose something else to do as you are penalizing him for his efforts. when you say that you trade with him as he throws his random shots at you, you are failing to implement the effect of coercion and thusly you fail to control the bout. no matter what he does (throw a 1-2 or any random string of punches) you must be able to establish the effect of coercion, realizing that he only ever does what you let him by way of this principle.


i really do wish i could go in greater detial for you here (i didnt even touch on the effect of persuasion b/k/a the act of drawing punches, or what happens when you meet somebody smart enough to draw/trigger your counterpunches and then use them to counterpunch you) but to do this i would have to exapand this post into what would be a 7 page essay. i hope that you grasp the core idea though.

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Gloves:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

I don't like any glove larger than 8 oz. Any larger and you begin to stray from a real fighting experience and you develop your fighting style based on those experiences. But I can see why people wouldnt want to use realistic gloves for something like day to day sparring. Even though you would learn more from one day of realistic fighting than you would from a whole year of a inaccurate simulation. Your defense would improve for one thing.


I myself hate the feel of a big glove and I don't see how anybody can stand them. Some of them (I guess many of them) won't even allow you to make a closed fist or at least not with great effort first. They end up not only weighing down your arms but they also force you to clench the muscles in your forearm and wrist tightly just to make a fist. You have tense up your arm just to punch and because of that you tighten your arm up and you slow yourself down. This also makes your movements stiff.

One way around that is to take some tape and wrap it around the glove so that the fist area is wrapped down to make a closed fist. This allows the glove to remain closed by default so you don't have to squeeze down hard just to punch. This also reduces some of the bulk which will give you more fluidic movement and reduce the feeling of being weighed down by large objects on your hands.

Or you could be even slicker than me and stitch down the finger tip area to the palm creating a nice clean fist.

You will notice the difference immediately.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Way back when Ringside first introduced their 12oz bag gloves I bought a pair and they were the best gloves I've ever used. You could make a good tight fist in them and the long wrist cuff gave added support to the wrist. When I wore them out I bought another pair of the same and they were slightly different but still good gloves. Recently I bought a third pair (this being 2 years ago,now) and they are crap. The new and improved attached thumb makes it impossibleto make a fist or to throw a punch properly. Given the odd angles dictated by the claw instead of a fist in the glove, wrist problems became inevitable so I threw them out. At the gym where I worked at the time I experimented with a variety of gloves, tendingtowards the 12oz and above thinking to protect my now sore hands.

I ended up with a pair of Everlast bag gloves, straight off the shelf and I love them because I can make a fist. That is the most vitalthing in keeping your hands sound: make a tight fist. Keeping your wrist straight is technique and strength of wrist and forearm. Do the approriate exercises.

How you wrap your hands matters more than the glove, I think. You want to be sure and do two things with the wrap: support and strengthen the wrist and keep tight the myriad small bones in the hand. Wrapping too much around and across the face of the fist-padding the knuckles- is counterproductive as the more times you cross the palm the less tight a fist you can make. The padding is in the glove and that won't do much good if your hand is only loosely clenched. The wrist band of the glove is no substitute for a good wrap and good technique. Make a tight fist and do the work to stengthen wrist and forearm and you don't need bag gloves; loose hands and wists and the gloves don't matter.

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Training Advice:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

To sharpen your wind, run 'rounds'. Say you expect spar 3 rounds: walk a time or two around the track at a good pace to warm up then, using a watch, spend the next 3 minutes as follows: start off jogging at a good pace for 30 or 45 seconds then run for a minute then jog for half a minute then sprint for 30 seconds and finish jogging to 3 minutes.(any variation of the above is fine- you see the point of it all?) Spend one minute walking briskly then three minutes as before but changing the pattwern and the durations. What you are doing is sharpening your wind and enhancing your ability to regain it quickly.
There are a few things that could help you once its 'that time'.

Don't stand around in punching range as that is how you get hit. Stay just out of range and you can ignore a lot of the leather flying about; step in to punch and get backout. If your opponent hits your gloves when he jabs you are in range and need to get away or to begin punching or ducking. Try to move around and jab a bit, get used to the ring at first. Let him lead and get a feel for what he's doing or trying to do, hit the openings his leads create. The whole idea is to enjoy it and that is best accomplished by relaxing and taking your time, not being tight and having to fight for your life.

Also don't forget to breath and I am not kidding. Lots of people-pros included- forget to breath when throwing punches. This is especially true when they get somebody hurt or are involved in a prolonged exchange; punching one's self out is the term. It is especially true among guys in the ring for the first time- the tension gets them. Breath.

Getting hit sucks but that only makes a successfuldefensive move that much sweeter. Chin down, elbows in and don't stand around in punching range. You'll do alright.

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The Jab:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The jab is a punch that is the product of not being tense. You must be loose, as in your muscles should be not tight, and the technique of the punch is very important. Exercises such as shadow boxing with hand weights should be under taken with care- for example do not snap out straight punches with hand weights as it is deleterious to your shoulders.
Try "catching the fly" with your left hand. Shoot it out lke you are trying to snatch $ out of somebody's hand. Learn to time the movemment of your left hand with the movement of your left foot.

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Sparring:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Maybe you are trying to do too much in the ring. Everybody wants to step in and hit and not get hit before landing the huge shot that kos the other guy. But the reality of the game is something different. Also consider that sparring is a work session, a training session, and not an over all assessment or summary of your skills. The simple fact is that your will not be able to fully exert yourself offensively until you are comfortable defensively. You'll be punching from too far away, without setting your feet, pulling your head back and so on. Boxing is a game of pieces and to be effective all the pieces must come together.
You want to develope certain skills in the ring and this is done by sparring; never get in the ring without a purpose. Today work on your defense and countering with the jab. Do the same thing every day until you get it right. Then work on the hook...I digress into my left handed daydreams...The point is this. Focus on something each and every day in the gym and in the ring. Practice is the key and sense of purpose frees the mind in the sense that if you know what you are working on it will come easier. Over time you work on each and every thing to the extent that it all becomes automatic.

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Boxing advice:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Congratulations on your first time: CC
Don't be afraid to not be in a fight all the time you are in the ring; choose the time, place and nature of the exchanges. Pay a LOT of attention to your feet in the next several weeks, and make sure to get your left hip and shoulder turned towards your foe; this will help you avoid many right handed punches.
Here is one last thing to consider: tension exhausts you no matter the level of your conditioning. If you are square to your opponent and thus vulnerable to nearly every punch and holding your hands unnaturally high to guard yourself you will suffer in two ways. First your arms will get tired. Second you will not be able to punch back effectively. Don't be afraid to lower your left to @ shoulder height and to use your left shoulder defensively ala Mayweather, Toney etc...It is actually the most natural way to do it and not some boxing magic. Drop weight to your right foot, turning back over a straight right leg pivoting the left foot inward and going up on the toe to raise the left shoulder. This will intercept the punch and put you in a perfect spot to counter.
Let them lead make them miss and Good Luck

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Train for boxing:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Nothing is out of the question if the dedication is there. But the best thing to do is drop all the cross training time waste nonsense and train to box. Being in fighting shape is a different mtter than being in great shape to do anything else. Also, don't be afraid to 'train' yourself; watch tape of great fighters as often as you can because your eyes won't mislead you nearly as badly as many of the people you are apt to encounter 'training' amateur boxers.

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Conditioning/Weight-Loss:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Here's a few thoughts for you on losing weight, conditioning and so on.
1) For road work try to fit in a very brisk walk of 2-3 miles in the morning, taking time to stop and stretch frequently. In the evenings, after work/school/boxing/etc fit in a 15 minute or so roadwork session, working 3 minute rounds with 1 minute between. During the "round" spend a minute each on sprinting, running, and jogging and vary the order from round to round. Walk as fast as you can during the one minute 'rest'
2) Do your sit-ups and other calisthenic (spellin g?) exercise religiously; this should be @ a 20 minute session either just before or just after your morning walk. What you want to gain here is flexibility.
3) In the gym shadow box to warm up and really work at it, imagining a real fight with a real foe. Don't jump rope on night that you run or on night that you spar. As you practice to perfect each punch also practice and master the basic blocks for that same punch. Between shadowboxing, hitting the heavy and double end bags your workout at the gym should lat @ 35 minutes; put in another two or three rounds for working the punch mitts or whatever but an hour of solid, dedicatwed and sharp work is plenty.
4) Please please please do not let Butterbean be your idol or your stylistic inspiration. He is probably a very nice man, loves kids and puppies and all that but he cannot fight a lick. Learn the "art" of boxing, how to get your left hip and shoulder ahead of your chin and how to avoid punche..etc...
5) Last, look to spar within the first 60 days max. The best way to get in shape to box, or to learn how to box is actually to box as often as possible. Sparring session in which both fighters only jab are helpful as are rounds where both cocentrate on defense and left hand counters for example.

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Training before joining a gym:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Try waking up in the morning and doing 20 minutes of stretching exercises, situps and so on. If possible follow up with a 20 miute or so walk an walk very rapidly- before breakfast. Three times a week get to a place where you can do some road work: start with 3-4 3min. rounds, alternating jogging, running and all out sprinting during the round and walking very fast during the rest. In the gym warm up with a couple rounds of fast and serious shadowboxing, then 3 rounds on the heavy bag, 3 on the double end bag and acouiple on the speedbag.
I would suggest that you begin the exercising and roadwork a week or two before goin g to the gym. Once there you shoud be ready for some light sparring in @ 3-4 weeks maximum,

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Joe's Training Method:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

My personal method was to train daily, to run 3 times a week. When I got older my routine was to spend 4 evenings a week 3-4 hours nightly, training others, then do my deal after. That was about 40 minutes or so and I did it 7 days a week. But my routine was probably much different than what is typical among those on this forum; it was rarely more than 45 minutes and it was divided between shadow-boxing, heavy-bag, speed bag etc...I began each day with 20 minutes or so of stretching exercises, and calisthenics.
I don't know specifically what you are training to achieve, or what your regimen (spelling?) involves, and in general, after what I've read here, I think many ofyou are training too much. To train to box a brisk hour, working sharp, 5 days a week is plenty. That doesn't include roadwork but 3-4 miles 3 times per week is good and you can sharpen up for a match in a couple weeks by running "rounds"

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About Discouragement:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Getting discouraged is almost daily in boxing; she is a demanding jealous bitch and it can never be good enough to please. But it is something worthwhile and special to even have the courage and the opportuinity to try; I am sure that a vast majority on this site know what I mean, There are boxers and there are humans, and damn are they missing out!

Every day in the gym has its bits and pieces of diappointment- if you are very attuned to it, every critical and demanding, there will always be something, even on those red-letter days that you feel as if you could fly. You can always come back tomorrow and try again, unless of course you come to realize that it just ain't your true calling; this isn't for everyone and there are precious few Robinsons out there. But if/when you hang 'em up you still tried- you had to be budgeoned out of what most fear to even try.

Now, back in the days of fairly old yore, I suffered a pretty good hernia and a back injury. I was sore a few days but generally ignored it and went on with things. That was easy to do then because I was in shape- 6'3", walking around @183- ad pain goes away. Ten years or so down the road and I can't hit the bags much; my left shoulder ain't what it was, the back aches and the hernia don't help. So by now- a couple weeks ago I can barely move, I'm sore and stiff all the time. A friend gets on me about it and you know how when that spirit rises up... He gets me doing a variety of stretching exercises and I feel great . The only day I've felt bad since then was when when we didn't exercise. Doing pushups- building some strength back in the shoulder- and another day or two and 'll be hitting my chinups unassisted, even if it is onlya couple of them. . It'll take longer than before to get my punches sharp but it'll come...

The whole point of this being don't let discouragement throttle you until it becomes depression and takes your wind. If what happened in the gym ain't as you had hoped, why? Start there then fixit then fight it. Because it isn't about winning its about the fight, my friends ;)

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From a pm with Thomas Tabin:

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Hey Chris hows it going. Thats actually a very important question you bring up because the same way you watch a fight is similar to the way you watch your opponent in the ring. Ultimately, every fighter, no matter his style, is using some kind of strategy. Its up to you, the fighter, to figure it out.

When watching a fight, start by trying to break down what one guy is doing.

Note the way he he jabs: is it quick, is he stepping in with it - and if so how much, is he throwing it often; what is he trying to accomplish by jabbing, is he trying to counter with it, is he only initiating with jabs, is he jabbing to set up the right hand or other punches? And what about the other punches? how does he throw the hook? The right hand? When, and why is doing it?

Also note how he deals with his opponent's punches: what does he do to avoid the jab, does he slip it, parry it, counter it? If so with what counter? How about other things like does he follow when his opponent steps back? Does he step back when his opponent comes forward?

The point I'm trying to drive home is that every fighter is using some kind of plan or strategy when they fight. If you can figure out what he is trying to do you can therefore start to see patterns in his style. The more and more you understand about a fighter, the more you will know his strengths and weaknesses, and therefore, the better you will be at fighting him.

So using the Whitaker/Chavez fight as an example, you would start by watching the way one of them fights. You will start to see patterns in what they are doing and will start to be able to predict what they will do when certain scenarios occur. Ironically, In watching just one fighter you can get a feel for the other one since both interact with each other and its impossible to get a feel for one without getting a feel for the other (fighter A has to react to the punches fighter B throws, fighter B has to react to the punches fighter A throws)

In his book, Jack Dempsey says to watch what is happening in the middle. That is, that area between he two fighters. This is a decent way to watch fights but I've personally found that it makes me somewhat confused, as I find myself watching so much at one time that I get lost. Also keep in mind that by watching just one fighter, you're using the same mechanism in your brain as you would use in a real fight (in a real fight you're always watching just your opponent and not the both of you at the same time). Therefore I would say that by just watching one fighter at a time you achieve a feeling that is more realistic and is actually something like a mental xercise.

Here is the most important part though:

when you watch a fighter (Monzon, Hagler, Marciano, Tarver -- anybody) try to get a feel f how they fight and then ask yourself how you would fight them. How would you avoid their strengths while at the same time exploiting their weaknesses? This too, is something that you use in the ring be it in sparring or in a real fight. In order to be a great fighter, you will need to know how to assess a fighter and pinpoint their weaknesses. At the end of the day, this is work that is done by the brain, and therefore, can only be exercise by visualizing opponents while shadowboxing and watching tapes as though you were in that ring with him.

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