how to counter the counter jab

I had my second sparring session yesterday. We were only allowed to throw jabs to the head (single, double, triple etc.) For the first two and a half rounds I was landing alot of jabs until my trainer told my opponent "you've just got to counter the jab". After that he would not throw any jabs until I did. I'd throw a jab and all of a sudden I'd be a hit with a hard counter jab. (At my gym were trained to catch the left jab with the right glove and counter with the jab). I've read here about feinting a counter-puncher to counter his counter. I tried that but my opponent is alot more experienced and did not fall for any of my lies.
I think I read here once about jabbing the bicep, shoulder or glove. Next time I'm going to jab his left glove then his head then his left glove again. Ill also just throw jabs to his glove to not become predictable.

Could you guys please help me out. Could you also please tell me some fighters who are good at feinting jabs and countering the jab counter. Thanks

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Originally Posted by jahmez

I had my second sparring session yesterday. We were only allowed to throw jabs to the head (single, double, triple etc.) For the first two and a half rounds I was landing alot of jabs until my trainer told my opponent "you've just got to counter the jab". After that he would not throw any jabs until I did. I'd throw a jab and all of a sudden I'd be a hit with a hard counter jab. (At my gym were trained to catch the left jab with the right glove and counter with the jab). I've read here about feinting a counter-puncher to counter his counter. I tried that but my opponent is alot more experienced and did not fall for any of my lies.
I think I read here once about jabbing the bicep, shoulder or glove. Next time I'm going to jab his left glove then his head then his left glove again. Ill also just throw jabs to his glove to not become predictable.

Could you guys please help me out. Could you also please tell me some fighters who are good at feinting jabs and countering the jab counter. Thanks

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If you're feinting while out of range then I can see why your opponent isn't buying them. If you can get closer, your feints will pose a real enough threat to prompt your opponent into leading. Your feints also have to look convincing. For instance, this can a jerking your shoulder forward (resembling the beginning of the jab), or even a quick non-committal jab that is just short of the mark.

Here are a couple of things that you can try:
-Stepping in, and then stepping out to draw their lead. You might have to feint with your shoulder while coming in as to convince them you're stepping in with a jab.

-Stepping forward. There's something about getting closer which pressures an opponent to punch. Feints from in close will force your opponent to lead, react defensively (giving you an opening in the process), or retreat.

After you draw their lead, you need to defend against it. You either catch/parry their jab, or slip it and come back with your own. Personally I like to borrow part of the old-timers stance, which is standing nearly sideways to my opponent, in a semi-crouch, with a slight dip/lean to the right which makes it easy to slip punches.

One great fighter that I like to watch is Emile Griffith, he had a good jab and he knew how to land it. 8)

Thanks alot for the advice. I think the first point (stepping in with a feint then stepping back) will be most effective against this particular opponent because he is a short inside fighter (I should have mentioned it last night but I was in a rush). It's interesting that you mention that particular stance because I began using it after reading about it on this forum. I think its the best way to also put power into the straight right. I've heard alot about Emile Griffith so I'm going to check him out right now on youtube. I've got another question. I've seen Tyson throw jabs while leaning to his right from the waist and I think I've seen Ali sometimes do it as well (but not leaning to the right as much as Tyson). Is this to counter the the jab counter? If so could you please explain how to do it. Thanks.

When the jab comes, you dip to the right, just enough to slip the punch. It's usually a slight motion when avoiding the jab, but can become more exaggerated to avoid hooks or swings. The move allows you to simultaneously load up on your shots. James Toney is good example of a fighter that would do this. Note you simply can not get the same result by standing square.

If you'd like to explore this idea more, here's are a couple posts by Thomas that go along with this:
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...psey-roll.html

Here are several threads regarding stance:
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ds-stance.html
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...nding-jab.html
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ur-stance.html
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ans-reach.html
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ey-burley.html

-That's just some things to think about in regards what you can do with your stance.

Anyways, once you have them second guessing themselves about when to jab, you can start leading with your own jabs. Try jabbing from from different angles and elevations. Double and triple your jabs which can deter your opponent from countering.

Thanks alot man. I'm gonna read through these now. I watched some footage of Griffith. From what I saw looks like he could do everything. Great head movement, smooth relaxed style. You were right about his jab too. I watched him fight Paret and he was landing it nicely. He was using it to get inside too. One exchange he did while Paret was against the ropes was awesome. He just exploded with combos and would then move his head when Paret tried to counter. I love the old fighters they seem so complete.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jahmez

I had my second sparring session yesterday. We were only allowed to throw jabs to the head (single, double, triple etc.) For the first two and a half rounds I was landing alot of jabs until my trainer told my opponent "you've just got to counter the jab". After that he would not throw any jabs until I did. I'd throw a jab and all of a sudden I'd be a hit with a hard counter jab. (At my gym were trained to catch the left jab with the right glove and counter with the jab). I've read here about feinting a counter-puncher to counter his counter. I tried that but my opponent is alot more experienced and did not fall for any of my lies.
I think I read here once about jabbing the bicep, shoulder or glove. Next time I'm going to jab his left glove then his head then his left glove again. Ill also just throw jabs to his glove to not become predictable.

Could you guys please help me out. Could you also please tell me some fighters who are good at feinting jabs and countering the jab counter. Thanks

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So were you guys just throwing lefts only like sword fighting? Or lead arms only whatever your stance. Or could you use just the jab then whatever with the rear? Or just jabs off of both?

just any number of left jabs

Thats not an easy exersize for any length of time,aside from experience it would be tough on anyone shorter in range or shorter in height and worse if you were both.

Coming over the outside of their jab with a jab elbow down is the block and counter, but thats a tough job to keep it up repetitively even if you are the larger and do out reach them.

Maybe your right if the other guys is more experienced or larger wait for him to move and disrupt his jab then move in.

I would be blocking it with a glove and fireing around the reverse side to his reaction. Even blocking it coming in with my elbow at his wrist or forearm distance and then being in the loaded position fireing it as I move into my range.

I think to fire low and immediatley fire high and the reverse is the key to getttig past their inital reaction cause if they are hit low or even see it go low their arm will come low in reaction so the opening is obviously instantly going to be high and visa versa. Triple up too and go for what you know will be their last reaction to number 2 shot.

Thanks alot for the advice. What I like about this forum is that you get spoilt for choice with the ammount of knowledge passed on.

I agree this really is the best boxing forum ive come across by far.

This is sort of a late reply, but I have done this exercise during shadow sparring (maybe with light taps/hits).

My coach insists we be able to catch (with power hand) and throw a jab simultaneously. [Or even vice versa, but this is the most common.]

Usually this is in the form of "catch his and throw at the same time" but there is no reason this cannot be done as "throw yours and catch his as he counters".

I even cheat a little bit (as long as it works) by throwing the jab and pre-loading* the catch as it seems likely that a lot of opponents will throw that counter jab. (Danger here is to get over focused on that catch and miss his counter right so you have to also be attentive to that against a better opponent AND when coach is letting your throw both hands.)

*A friend of mine who teaches Systema calls this spinal loading, where you prepare a move consciously and (in effect) load it into your spinal reflexes -- while this may not be technically accurate in neurological terms, it works as at least an accurate metaphor. It's pretty much similar to what a batter does when waiting for a baseball pitch or a base runner does when waiting for the batter to hit.

The base runner may be a better example since he is likely loading to (even contradictory) actions: 1) to RUN on the hit, and 2) to RETURN to base on the throw for the pick off.

Loading multiple actions is possible but is probably limited a few before the value of pre-loading is lost to the difficulty of having (some many) choices.

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HerbM