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Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Roy Jones Jr.
Willie Pep
Mayweather Jr.
Whitaker
Winky Wright
all had/have great reflexes but that doesn't always mean everything. Ali had great reflexes, but when he fought flat footed he was relatively easy to hit footwork aside. Leonard also appeared that way. Michael Nunn, Meldrick Taylor, Shane Mosley all have great reflexes, but they could be hit. What of the top mentioned guys had the best defensive style in that the most people could use it effectively? I would say Wright.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Taeth
Roy Jones Jr.
Willie Pep
Mayweather Jr.
Whitaker
Winky Wright
all had/have great reflexes but that doesn't always mean everything. Ali had great reflexes, but when he fought flat footed he was relatively easy to hit footwork aside. Leonard also appeared that way. Michael Nunn, Meldrick Taylor, Shane Mosley all have great reflexes, but they could be hit. What of the top mentioned guys had the best defensive style in that the most people could use it effectively? I would say Wright.
that's a hard question.....reflexes are such a huge part of defense...no matter what kind of defense you're using....Mike Tyson in his prime had an awesome "Peek a Boo".......all great defenses require awesome reflexes...how else could you block the punches?....
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Hands down it would have to be a cross between Floyd & Wright. No doubt.
The shoulder roll (Floyd) & an impenatrable guard (Ronald) would have to go down as unbeatable.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by wacko3205
Hands down it would have to be a cross between Floyd & Wright. No doubt.
The shoulder roll (Floyd) & an impenatrable guard (Ronald) would have to go down as unbeatable.
B-HOP has an awesome shoulder roll...heck, he can hit you with it as well!!!
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by THE Bigragu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wacko3205
Hands down it would have to be a cross between Floyd & Wright. No doubt.
The shoulder roll (Floyd) & an impenatrable guard (Ronald) would have to go down as unbeatable.
B-HOP has an awesome shoulder roll...heck, he can hit you with it as well!!!
:coolclick: Agreed...the thing you forgot to mention...he'd get away with it also. ;D
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
A defense like Charles Burley or the more orthodox fighter in that time Ezzard Charles is better. With these guys it's not unusual to see them constantly adjusting, even their rhythm of their defense/punches change according to flow of the fight. And against these guys you can't just pick your spot and name your shot.
Now Floyd looked impressive making Philip D. making him miss with his shoulder-rolls and ducking/weaving, but you look at a guy like Willy Pep and he does more than just wear you out. Let's put Willy in that position up against the ropes. For instance he'll miss a left and then lean back, now he's on the ropes. Let's say the poor sucker closes the distance and then-- Willy grabs him behind the elbow and spins him around. Now the positions are reversed and Willy is just beating the hell out of him. He'd do that sometimes or at least keep the guy away, feinting and working to set him up. Like any fighter of worth his defense was always changing.
You see what I mean? The guys with the great defenses were adaptable, had a big bag of tricks and never relied on one way of fighting a guy.
B-Hop is big time film-buff, he can thank Archie Moore and the other old-timers for showing him how it's done. He also knew the dirty tricks as well, he'd bang on you with his shoulders, hit you with fouls so that his opponent is between him and the referee, and most importantly he kept control of the fight.
The way you hold your arms isn't what defense in boxing truly is, it's adapting and setting your opponent up to fight your fight.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by wacko3205
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Originally Posted by THE Bigragu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wacko3205
Hands down it would have to be a cross between Floyd & Wright. No doubt.
The shoulder roll (Floyd) & an impenatrable guard (Ronald) would have to go down as unbeatable.
B-HOP has an awesome shoulder roll...heck, he can hit you with it as well!!!
:coolclick: Agreed...the thing you forgot to mention...he'd get away with it also. ;D
cc #2800 bro....yeah...he would get away with it...like 20 times!!!
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
1 punch KO power
KO power isn't good enough by itself. Even a guy like Marciano was good at feints and suckering a guy so he could land his shots. Mike Tyson was also a counterpuncher.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Chris N.
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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
1 punch KO power
KO power isn't good enough by itself. Even a guy like Marciano was good at feints and suckering a guy so he could land his shots. Mike Tyson was also a counterpuncher.
You are correct, Sir.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Chris N.
A defense like Charles Burley or the more orthodox fighter in that time Ezzard Charles is better. With these guys it's not unusual to see them constantly adjusting, even their rhythm of their defense/punches change according to flow of the fight. And against these guys you can't just pick your spot and name your shot.
Now Floyd looked impressive making Philip D. making him miss with his shoulder-rolls and ducking/weaving, but you look at a guy like Willy Pep and he does more than just wear you out. Let's put Willy in that position up against the ropes. For instance he'll miss a left and then lean back, now he's on the ropes. Let's say the poor sucker closes the distance and then-- Willy grabs him behind the elbow and spins him around. Now the positions are reversed and Willy is just beating the hell out of him. He'd do that sometimes or at least keep the guy away, feinting and working to set him up. Like any fighter of worth his defense was always changing.
You see what I mean? The guys with the great defenses were adaptable, had a big bag of tricks and never relied on one way of fighting a guy.
B-Hop is big time film-buff, he can thank Archie Moore and the other old-timers for showing him how it's done. He also knew the dirty tricks as well, he'd bang on you with his shoulders, hit you with fouls so that his opponent is between him and the referee, and most importantly he kept control of the fight.
The way you hold your arms isn't what defense in boxing truly is, it's adapting and setting your opponent up to fight your fight.
:coolclick: Pretty much agree with the entire post...cept for the high lighted part.
Wright totally debunks that statement. It's all in the wrists & forearms. ;D
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Jeah wright does debunk that, I don't think he feels anything in those arms anymore, heck better than getting your head battered in on any day tho!
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Great defence is all about balance, keeping your feet in the right place at the right time, concentrating on the distance from the opponent, keeping your hands up, never taking your eyes of an opponent, leaning, bending your knees, many many factors, even biting on your gumshield correctly is part of a good defence, it can be the difference between getting knocked out and staying awake.
Winky Wright is blessed with huge forearms, he really is like a damn crab, and stands so upright and just protects everything, he has developed this over many years, he's adapted his style to his attributes and all the greats learn to do that over time, the legends find a way to be strong in more than their initial strength departments, like Lennox for example was nothing like the strong defensive fighter he is now, but he developed his jab, so offense and defense just moulded, making him the best.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
well no reflexes it's got to be Winky Wright because he doesn't move he just covers up.
All around, I like Pep's the best
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
James Toney circa Holyfield was probably the best defense in heavyweight boxing at that time IMO.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Toney and Hopkins both had good defenses, but not elite. The thing I like about Mayweather and Winky's defense is that they are so tight. Willie Pep didn't have the tighest defense and he got hit alot by Saddler... if you thought Mayweather against Castillo was bad you should have seen a few of their fights. I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.
1. Pick up the rhythm of your opponent(makes it easy to counter, and know what their next punch will be)
2. Don't just stand there with your arms up(roll/dip the punches) or throw back at the nearest oppertunity like Winky.
3. Stay relaxed
4. Don't cement your feet into the ground you have to move your feet to either keep the distance or make the opponent have to move while their punching... it makes it alot harder to hit the opponent when you have to move while throwing combinations.
5. Make them respect your offense so you can choose when they come in.
6. Stay composed in any part of the ring.
7. If you keep your hands, everytime you throw a punch bring back to the guard and don't let it fall down.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
The thing about Wright is that he is able to get his gloves up and down in time to block his body and head. He also ducks a few punches here and there, and he is always quick to throw the jab often and accurately. He can almost determine when his opponent will throw punches by when he decides not to throw the jab.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Taeth
I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.
I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Personally, I like my boy Mayorga's defense the best. ;D 8)
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Hulk
Personally, I like my boy Mayorga's defense the best. ;D 8)
He does block punches with his face as well as anyone. ;D
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
the best defense is a great offense,
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
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Originally Posted by Hulk
Personally, I like my boy Mayorga's defense the best. ;D 8)
He does block punches with his face as well as anyone. ;D
Damn straight he does. He's a pimp like that. 8) And he will be BACK to kick Fernando Vargas's ass, least I hope that shat gets made.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
yeah james toney went into that weird angle head cock backed defense mode.
for some reason no one could land when he did that for a MIN?
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Roy Jones Jr Willie Pep
yeah RIP! he was Great!
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Pernell has to be up there for sure. Awesome defence,he made Oscar look foolish at times.(and was it me or was Lampley shouting at combos that just were NOT landing!).
Floyd's defence is simply sensational,you can count the number of times he has been caught flush and hard on 1 hand. (minus the Castillo fights ;D ;))
Winky's defence is good,nay excellent but I want to see how it would stand up to a big banger 160 or so. It was awesome at 154 but Vargas DID manage to land really well on him. I have not seen anyone work his body really well,which if they did,would certainly lower his arms and leave more openings. B Hop has an awesome defence. Lovely footwork,towards the end of his career,it was strange even seeing him get hit.
Pepps' was exceptional minus the Saddler fights but I've heard rumours that he lost some of those fights on purpose so I'm not sure. Wasn't there a law suit invloved?
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Pepps' was exceptional minus the Saddler fights but I've heard rumours that he lost some of those fights on purpose so I'm not sure. Wasn't there a law suit invloved?
I could be wrong, but I think it's believed that all the Saddler losses were legit, honest defeats.
But with every other loss that Pep had in his prime, there's at least some suspicion that he lost on purpose.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
After retiring, he and Saddler involved in a series of exhibition bouts, and in 1980, Pep sued Sports Illustrated for running a story suggesting that he threw his fight with Perez. Pep won the lawsuit, and Sports Illustrated had to pay him a large amount of money because the article was detrimental to Pep's personality and not based on proven facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Pep
Not exactly a relaible source I know! ::** ;D
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Michael Watson had a great defence he used to cup his hands right over his face Eubank started doing it after he saw Watson doing it
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by THE Bigragu
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Originally Posted by wacko3205
Hands down it would have to be a cross between Floyd & Wright. No doubt.
The shoulder roll (Floyd) & an impenatrable guard (Ronald) would have to go down as unbeatable.
B-HOP has an awesome shoulder roll...heck, he can hit you with it as well!!!
Yep yep
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.
I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.
Roy Jabbed enough. And Pernell is as far from a technical fighter as Graziano. He did throw good punches, but his defense style where he would go low and he would usually have his hands at his chest where Roy often had his. Anyways Pernell's defensive style was as far from orthodox as they came, and I doubt a handful of fighters could have foughten with his style.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Most effective shoulder roll fighter is still Mayweather, then James Toney or Archie Moore then maybe Hopkins there are alot of guys who have done it, and another one is Travis Simms who has a pretty solid defense as well, and its the best defense for countering that I've seen.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
I agree how Mayweather shoulder rolls is awesome he rarely takes a clean shot
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
.....no one has talked about Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. Their defenses weren't all that bad.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I think Pep was just lucky there wasn't any really quick fighters in his era for him to face because like Pernell Whitaker or Roy Jones Jr. their styles are so daring and open that somebody with even close to the same speed would give them hell. Even look at Montell Griffin who used an awkward style to keep Roy off balance.
I don't think there's much in common between Roy and Pernell.
Roy held his hands low, didn't really jab, he was extremely unorthodox.
Pernell was a textbook technical fighter. He could do flashy stuff too and showboat, but he was much more textbook than Roy.
Roy Jabbed enough. And Pernell is as far from a technical fighter as Graziano. He did throw good punches, but his defense style where he would go low and he would usually have his hands at his chest where Roy often had his. Anyways Pernell's defensive style was as far from orthodox as they came, and I doubt a handful of fighters could have foughten with his style.
I'm sure that most fighters couldn't have fought using Pernell's style.
My point was that Pernell's style didn't have much in common with Jones'.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
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Originally Posted by Lyle
.....no one has talked about Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. Their defenses weren't all that bad.
I already pointed out Ezzard Charles, Charles Burley and the old timers in general. They were all pretty crafty. Walcott was pretty cagey too, no arguing that he also knew art of feinting and setting his opponent up.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Reflexes aside... Personally considering that Roy Jones jr, Pernell etc are based more on reflex imo..
I would go with Bernard ..As his defence is less reflex or blocking then it is strategy and great movement..
Tarver fight for a great example.. The side to side movement and odd shoulder roll and the way he leaps in with his punches takes away other strategies from his opponent so that he stays in controll..
Toney... Some could argue james' defence is reflex ..But i personally would put it down to great ring experiance and ring smarts...He doesnt wait for the shot to be thrown he throws his first moves then throws again.. I get a greater impression he works off experiance and educated guesses etc..
And of course winky wright's defence is very good with his patient style and incredibly long arms just like in the trinidad fight you kind of get the feeling that not only is it frustrating to fight winky..
But its incredibly disheartening and mentally hard to find a way to get to winky..
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Winky is pretty solid, he's hardly off balance, and how many times can you think of him in a bad angle. He hasn't committed to his shots until recent fights, and that'd give his opponents less to work with.
Hopkins knows what he's doing, he knows how to fight southpaws and any fighter by feinting and setting up his shots. The big thing is that he gets them to fight his kinda fight.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
in my opinion, reflexes aside i think the 2nd best defense is still the "boxer stance" because it is more likely for a boxer to be hittable when his arms are put down than say a style like winky where his arms are always up and ready for a cover.
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Re: Reflexes a-side, what is the best defence
Winky and Floyd hands down.Defense is making your opponent miss and/or not taking scoring blows.