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Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
I'm a boxing fan. I couldn't care less about the financial arrangements made for fights.... who gets what.... who's the promoter.... blah, blah, blah.
As a boxing fan, I am the consumer of the product. Since boxing is no longer free, I like most everyone else pay for the occasional PPV fight and as a paying customer, like to receive value for my money.
This is a boxing forum, and yet we spend more time talking about contract ins-and-outs than we do about the fights themselves.
Why can't "X" face "Y"..... why promoter Joe Blow's fighters can't fight against promoter John Doe's fighters. As a fan, all that does is frustrate me because I can't see the fights I (as well as most boxing fans) I want to see.
I understand the marketing aspect of letting fights build up.... but boxing takes this beyond the point of ridiculous and into the Twilight Zone. And we all helplessly complain and wring our hands and then watch a fight 5 years beyond its expiration date.
Now.....
Needless to say, there is a veritable glut of boxing commissions, sanctioning bodies, governing bodies, and other meaningless names... making up a dysfunctional jumble of organizations whose functions and responsibilities, some of us mere mortals do not understand.
Also needless to say, boxing's very livelihood depends on us boxing fans, the consumers. Yet we historically put up with a myriad of problems including:
1. Inept and corrupt fight judges and shady, shameful decisions.
2. Fights that we want but do not get made.
3. Proliferation of "title" belts to the point they're as valuable and significant as a Cracker Jack surprise.
#2 is probably the most frustrating of all. Fans/consumers want the fight..... the fighters want the fight..... but we don't get the fight. All because Joe Blow "can't work with" John Doe. And so we're held hostage because of two corrupt, greedy, two-faced, lying idiots..... and products are withheld from the public until they're expired and rotten. Then we buy them anyway among the bitching and moaning.
Back to the interminable number and types of boxing organizations, commissions, regulatory boards, sanctioning bodies, governing bodies, and ALL KINDS of boards and bodies.
Someone please enlighten this poor soul.
Why can't we have an EFFECTIVE governing body (for lack of an not-already-used name) that can draw up some rules for boxing promoters??
Do they already exist? Am I missing something here? Are we not entitled to know what in hell is going on behind the scenes?
Professional football players (in the States) have their teams. But all players and teams must answer to the NFL, which sets all the rules and governs the sport.
Oh... you want individual players? Ok then, how about professional tennis players and golfers? In tennis there is the WTA, and in golf you have the PGA.
Still not the same? Oh well... can't think of any other examples at the moment.
All I'm saying is... we know the problems, as does the rest of the boxing world. Why do we have to let a handful of sleazy promoters get in the way of the sport we love? And why do we have to live with a jumble of organizations which individually have zero control over the entire sport, and collectively work together as well as a bunch of jungle predators thrown together in the same cage with one single piece of red meat?
Pathetic.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
The writers are the single biggest issue. These bitch made cowards let the promoters lie to them for access. Bob won’t give me credentials if I question this obvious lie. Eddie won’t give me the next interview if I call his BS what it is.
Someone stands up to them and the web of deceit crumbles. Bob doesn’t know if Al is a person when it’s time to talk Garcia/Loma but simultaneously he is working with Al on Wilder/Fury. Call the BS BS and the stupid don’t believe the stupid.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
I know people will say it has always gone on but has it really been this bad?
There are far too many ppv platforms and that has resulted in many promoters with their stables assigned to these TV companies which result in the top fighters not being able to fight one another.
Some of these fighters are happy and content with this arrangement as they get well paid and do not want to risk their unbeaten record.
Sure is sad that we are missing our classic Leonard v Hearns or not so classic Oscar v Tito fights.
I do not think we will get Crawford v Spence and the AJ v Wilder is tainted now.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I know people will say it has always gone on but has it really been this bad?
There are far too many ppv platforms and that has resulted in many promoters with their stables assigned to these TV companies which result in the top fighters not being able to fight one another.
Some of these fighters are happy and content with this arrangement as they get well paid and do not want to risk their unbeaten record.
Sure is sad that we are missing our classic Leonard v Hearns or not so classic Oscar v Tito fights.
I do not think we will get Crawford v Spence and the AJ v Wilder is tainted now.
double Bingo! It hasn't ever been this bad and AJ Wilder is forever tainted.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I know people will say it has always gone on but has it really been this bad?
There are far too many ppv platforms and that has resulted in many promoters with their stables assigned to these TV companies which result in the top fighters not being able to fight one another.
Some of these fighters are happy and content with this arrangement as they get well paid and do not want to risk their unbeaten record.
Sure is sad that we are missing our classic Leonard v Hearns or not so classic Oscar v Tito fights.
I do not think we will get Crawford v Spence and the AJ v Wilder is tainted now..
Wait a minute, AJ v Wilder is tainted because AJ lost and Wilder virtually lost.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I know people will say it has always gone on but has it really been this bad?
There are far too many ppv platforms and that has resulted in many promoters with their stables assigned to these TV companies which result in the top fighters not being able to fight one another.
Some of these fighters are happy and content with this arrangement as they get well paid and do not want to risk their unbeaten record.
Sure is sad that we are missing our classic Leonard v Hearns or not so classic Oscar v Tito fights.
I do not think we will get Crawford v Spence and the AJ v Wilder is tainted now..
Wait a minute, AJ v Wilder is tainted because AJ lost and Wilder virtually lost.
Mainly because AJ lost his zero. It would have been epic to have seen 2 undefeated heavyweight champions unifying the titles.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Iceing on the cake is AJ loses to Ruiz again, this is practically garanteed, just a few rounds earlier this go around. Wilder is now too old. Pit 2 and 2 together and, AJ Wilder is dead.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
The writers are the single biggest issue. These bitch made cowards let the promoters lie to them for access. Bob won’t give me credentials if I question this obvious lie. Eddie won’t give me the next interview if I call his BS what it is.
Someone stands up to them and the web of deceit crumbles. Bob doesn’t know if Al is a person when it’s time to talk Garcia/Loma but simultaneously he is working with Al on Wilder/Fury. Call the BS BS and the stupid don’t believe the stupid.
The writers? ;D Ha! as if. There is not the appetite for decent writing out there, sports or or any other kind like there used to be. Newspapers do not have the clout they used to and people are not given the room and time to build a career. They are still some magnificent writers out there but they have little to no power or influence because the world has changed.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
This is also where the magic lies and what makes it magnificent...still. People say things like "It is all a Circus" and bloody well ..duh.. yes that is kind of the point of PRIZE FIGHTERS. They are there to entertain, and the fact that there is still honour, integrity , sportsmanship and competitiveness there are in fights today, however inconsistent that is, should be applauded. It is Rock and Roll, Art, Poetry in Motion, and sometimes just simple violence but it just would not ever have become what it is without the bullshit artists, the blagging promoters, the crazy managers, the impresarios,he chancers and wide boys made good.
The fighters are more than just commodities to us and to their mangers and coaches but for promoters with large stables, they are also bargaining chips and assets. They (the promoters) drive hard bargains to enrich themselves and the fighters benefit but yes there comes a point where they are devaluing big fights by holding on to a blinding hand for far too long.
If it was more regulated it would run a big risk of making also-rans and supporting acts irrelevant. The whole shebang would shrink and become more predictable, financially unsustainable (WBSS?) and less entertaining. Be careful what you wish for.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
The olden days...Tex Rickard...Nat Fleischer... Did you know when text Rickard died his body was placed in a $15,000 bronze coffin and placed in the centre of Madison square garden? thousands and thousands pass to buy his coffin to pay respects to the greatest boxing promoter of all time. Record was a lawman and a cattle rancher and a mine owner, gambling Hall proprietor, champion poker player and Superstar fight promoter who used to bring in 5 million dollar Gates.
Before text Rickard came along fights were wild and chaotic events where people had to have their wits about them. there was a high risk but he changed the face of boxing with printed tickets with prices on them and seat numbers. He would employ security staff who made sure that you got the seat that you paid for. the tickets even had the dates printed on them and he transformed the sport of boxing into a place that you might take your lady to.
He died a few days after his 59th birthday.
Thanks a million, Tex.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fatboxingfan
The olden days...Tex Rickard...Nat Fleischer... Did you know when text Rickard died his body was placed in a $15,000 bronze coffin and placed in the centre of Madison square garden? thousands and thousands pass to buy his coffin to pay respects to the greatest boxing promoter of all time. Record was a lawman and a cattle rancher and a mine owner, gambling Hall proprietor, champion poker player and Superstar fight promoter who used to bring in 5 million dollar Gates.
Before text Rickard came along fights were wild and chaotic events where people had to have their wits about them. there was a high risk but he changed the face of boxing with printed tickets with prices on them and seat numbers. He would employ security staff who made sure that you got the seat that you paid for. the tickets even had the dates printed on them and he transformed the sport of boxing into a place that you might take your lady to.
He died a few days after his 59th birthday.
Thanks a million, Tex.
Interesting character who did a lot for boxing back in those days. Pretty straightforward back then. Fighters developed and created a following... promoters promoted... fights occurred... and everybody was a winner.
Can't imagine Rickard letting Dempsey vs. Tunney marinate.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
I also consider the ridiculous number of belts an obstacle. There should be one belt and that one belt holder be the best fighter willing to take on anybody, injury permitting, 2-3 times a year. It has become meaningless.
Then there are the judges who seem to be accountable to nobody and at least be expected to understand the rules of boxing, not have ADHD, be required to check for blindness a couple of times a year, and performance inhibiting drugs.
Then of course we do have our 'friends' the promoters, who seem to have these tough men wrapped around their legalese.
And of course some fighters who just go along with it. I love Calzaghe, but there was never an excuse for some of those fights. Manfredo....just a con job pay day. You have to call it for what it is. Canelo/Khan....a disgrace. Nobody needs to see any of that.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Its decayed down to where now, listen to all of us here. Jose Sulaiman and Don King shannanigans for decades. Larry Holmes had none of it and got robbed. I saw how it is thought Don King stole 100 mill from Tyson.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Has anyone here waffling about "the good old days," one belt, regular title defences, great promoters and perfect "judges" ever researched/read the history of boxing? The only thing that's changed is fighters are far, far more in control of their careers, have more opportunities and much better off. They aren't forced to fight, they choose too, like we choose whether or not to buy/watch.
EVERYTHING is about risk-reward, always has been for every professional fighter.
When facing Tunney, Dempsey hadn't fought in years yet it's The Ring mag upset of the decade. On the morning of the fight he was poisoned by someone in his team, there were huge bets involved, gangsters, missing officials and all round reported shady shit.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
I'm sorry you missed the irony in my post, Fenster. Of course it's impossible to compare boxing eras. My Dempsey-Tunney "marinating" comment was said pretty much tongue-in-cheek and in jest. I'm surprised it was taken seriously. Though the thread deviated slightly into the "good old days", my point (and original intent of the thread) remains. Promoters are the scourge of boxing and the main reason we don't get to see the fights we want WHEN we want them... if at all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Having people point out the economic structure of boxing does nothing to change my opinion or my assertions. The fact is that today, different from yesteryear, we're reduced to moaning and bitching about fights that should have been... and some of us (not me) seem content with talking about contracts and dollars and cents. In a way it's like a giant, virtual pacifier for fans who'd rather be talking about fights.
I'm pretty clear about the past of boxing, but I appreciate the reminder. It puts things in perspective for those who need it.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Good and old are a oxymoron
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.
Boycotts will never happen in boxing. Boxing fans grab whatever scraps are tossed at them by the promoter/network conglomerates, who laugh all the way to the bank.
The product keeps getting worse and worse, and boxing fans continue to grovel for more.... and paying good money for it.
Like dogs fighting over a dried up bone, some fans then turn their attention to who got the better contract and how the negotiations are going.
Personally I'd rather watch grass grow.
Promoters put up money for fights... so what. It's not outlandish to ask them to adhere to some not-too-stringent rules of engagement, to avoid the awful god stinking mess we get every time two highly touted fighters get anywhere sniffing distance from each other. Like I said... fighters want it... fans want it... what's the hold up. It's not like promoters are dying of hunger. But if the effort isn't made, nothing gets done. Simple as.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.
Before you get anywhere near the telly you have to have somebody back you and underwrite the costs of your training, pay your bills and so on. Being a promoter means you're investing a lot of money in novice pros, most of whom you'll lose money on. When you do get one who you actually make money with he's one punch away from losing you money again so it's entirely understandable that promoters are going to do everything they can to protect their fighters and maximise the amount of money they can make out of them. That is never going to change and precludes any chance of any kind of organisation of boxing other than what already exists. You're just not going to find a bunch of philanthropists out there who will invest time and money to create top fighters who will then make the fans the fights want to see and not worry about making money out of them. It's not going to happen.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.
Boycotts will never happen in boxing. Boxing fans grab whatever scraps are tossed at them by the promoter/network conglomerates, who laugh all the way to the bank.
The product keeps getting worse and worse, and boxing fans continue to grovel for more.... and paying good money for it.
Like dogs fighting over a dried up bone, some fans then turn their attention to who got the better contract and how the negotiations are going.
Personally I'd rather watch grass grow.
Promoters put up money for fights... so what. It's not outlandish to ask them to adhere to some not-too-stringent rules of engagement, to avoid the awful god stinking mess we get every time two highly touted fighters get anywhere sniffing distance from each other. Like I said... fighters want it... fans want it... what's the hold up. It's not like promoters are dying of hunger. But if the effort isn't made, nothing gets done. Simple as.
Spot on with the bolded part. Fans don't really have that much influence. If they did big fights would happen more often and when they are meant to happen. Boxing is far below standard in that regard. Joshua/Wilder? Mayweather/Manny? Just two examples of fights that the money men either wouldn't let happen or delayed beyond all point or meaning.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Damn mouse didn't click. But I especially liked the first point, Tits. Fans are largely taken for mugs and the system is weighted heavily in favor of those who do actually control it. If a product sells, they generally want to maximize its usage before something better comes along.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Damn mouse didn't click. But I especially liked the first point, Tits. Fans are largely taken for mugs and the system is weighted heavily in favor of those who do actually control it. If a product sells, they generally want to maximize its usage before something better comes along.
How many boxing bills have you attended?
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Damn mouse didn't click. But I especially liked the first point, Tits. Fans are largely taken for mugs and the system is weighted heavily in favor of those who do actually control it. If a product sells, they generally want to maximize its usage before something better comes along.
How many boxing bills have you attended?
Not really addressing the fact that fans do not get to determine the fights that they inevitably see. You know full well I do not get to see much boxing in the flesh. No fan asked to see Calzaghe/Manfredo and yet it was given to them and many lapped it up and that is a shame. Maximizing usage of the product, but a waste of prime product. To be fair to Calzaghe he did pick it up.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Damn mouse didn't click. But I especially liked the first point, Tits. Fans are largely taken for mugs and the system is weighted heavily in favor of those who do actually control it. If a product sells, they generally want to maximize its usage before something better comes along.
How many boxing bills have you attended?
Not really addressing the fact that fans do not get to determine the fights that they inevitably see.
You know full well I do not get to see much boxing in the flesh. No fan asked to see Calzaghe/Manfredo and yet it was given to them and many lapped it up and that is a shame. Maximizing usage of the product, but a waste of prime product. To be fair to Calzaghe he did pick it up.
Exactly. I'm not singling you out, but you're hardly a super hardcore boxing fan, you watch a small select number of fights every year, that's it. "Fans" aren't taken for mugs, it's just some fans enjoy boxing more than others, there are literally dozens and dozens of great matchups every month let alone year.
The same "mugs" who lapped up Calzaghe-Manfredo (35,000 tickets, millions watching on ITV and HBO) paved the way for Kessler, Hopkins and Roy fights. Without "mugs," you and your ilk don't get your handful of "hollywood" events each year. That's all.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Damn mouse didn't click. But I especially liked the first point, Tits. Fans are largely taken for mugs and the system is weighted heavily in favor of those who do actually control it. If a product sells, they generally want to maximize its usage before something better comes along.
How many boxing bills have you attended?
Not really addressing the fact that fans do not get to determine the fights that they inevitably see.
You know full well I do not get to see much boxing in the flesh. No fan asked to see Calzaghe/Manfredo and yet it was given to them and many lapped it up and that is a shame. Maximizing usage of the product, but a waste of prime product. To be fair to Calzaghe he did pick it up.
Exactly. I'm not singling you out, but you're hardly a super hardcore boxing fan, you watch a small select number of fights every year, that's it. "Fans" aren't taken for mugs, it's just some fans enjoy boxing more than others, there are literally dozens and dozens of great matchups every month let alone year.
The same "mugs" who lapped up Calzaghe-Manfredo (35,000 tickets, millions watching on ITV and HBO) paved the way for Kessler, Hopkins and Roy fights. Without "mugs," you and your ilk don't get your handful of "hollywood" events each year. That's all.
At the same time fights between prime fighters are missed or else delayed beyond recognition. I watch boxing many a weekend like anyone else, but I am certainly not someone who was lining up to see Calzaghe/Manfredo. I am a big Joe fan, but was honest enough to say that it was meaningless and that indeed it does make a mug of people watching. I see them as gullible and part of the problem rather than superfans. One should be honest about bad matchups or mismatches.
When Calzaghe was fighting Lacy or Hopkins or Eubank you could only have praise, but I see where somone like Al might be negative as some of those defences were against weak opponents. Warren is at it again lately with Fury. Cashing in and then and only then putting him back into danger. I find it cynical.
I think there is an unhealthy interest in the zero and it would be great if boxing wouldn't allow fights like Pac/Mayweather to wait half a decade. Boxing is great when greats fight greats and more of that would make boxing greater too.
One belt, one champ and regular best against the best fights. Boxing has diluted itself by straying from that. Compare the 70's HW's to today. Everyone fought everyone and again and again if need be. That's all it takes.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.
In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had
Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)
Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans ;D (no disrespect)
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirkland Laing
Boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA where you can buy a franchise and the franchise has a set number of guaranteed games every year, a gigantic regular guaranteed amount of money from TV every year, even very predictable guaranteed income from merchandising/food and drink at your stadium/arena etc.
Professional boxers don't have a pot to piss in when they start boxing for a living. There wouldn't be any fights at all if it wasn't for a bunch of sleazy fuckers putting up their own cash to put the fights on. And it's not a guaranteed thing -- plenty of people have tried and failed. You've got to subsidise a whole bunch of fighters, put them on a wage and pay their expenses and hope that some day one of them makes you some money and you can turn a profit on the whole enterprise. The regulatory system in boxing -- such as it is -- the sanctioning bodies, local commissions and so on has just evolved around the money guys who put the fights on. Various commissions operate basic health checks and supply officials and so on with their costs ultimately borne by the promoters (places like Vegas are a little different, the casinos basically fund the Nevada commission). The sanctioning bodies exist to make a profit too. They basically rent belts to various promoters so that their fighters can fight for and hold "world" titles.
The bottom line for boxing is that it's impossible to create what you have in other sports. There's no team or brand that can go on for ever, no leagues with guaranteed games/TV coverage/merchandising/sponsorship and so on for your team. It's just that bunch of sleazy guys putting their cash up in the hope of making a profit. And because it begins and ends with the promoters the whole structure of professional boxing can't be altered.
No... boxing is not like the NFL or the NBA... you're right. Except in one critical way. They depend on the fans. For all the "guarantees" you mention, none of them are worth spit if the fans don't go see the games. Empty stadiums can last only for so long. Again... professional sports are a product. We the fans are the consumers. However the business is structured, the rules of supply and demand still apply.
You forgot to mention golf and tennis players. Very few of professional golfers or tennis players are the Federers, Nadals, and Woods of the world. There's hundreds, maybe more, of pros who barely make enough money to remain on tour. Prize money below the top players drops off significantly. Yet they remain and persist. They continue because they enjoy what they're doing... and because maybe lightning will strike once in awhile and they'll win something.
So I appreciate you trying to make boxing into this totally different monster in the world of sports. But I refuse to believe that we (the consumers) have to continue to accept a totally damaged product.
That there are good, decent fighters, promoters, and other boxing people out there who want to bring fans the best? Absolutely. But I'm not buying the "oh but boxing's different" ball of wax.
You say boxing's structure can't be altered and we have to take it or leave it? Fine... that's your prerogative. Just remember... boxing might be one of the world's oldest sports... but fans of today are different from those of yesterday. Plus there are a lot more products out there competing for our consumer dollars. I still think promoters could be under a set of rules. Nothing too binding. Just enough to ensure they don't hold the sport hostage.
You can't have any set of rules govering promoters other than what exists. Promoters are the people putting up the money for the fights. Without the promoters professional boxing doesn't exist. It's never going to change.
It is TV companies that put up the money which ultimately comes from the fans that pay per view these contests. They want exclusivity of the fighter, promoters want exclusivity of the channel and groups are created which get in the way of big fights. Boycott ppv and hit them where it hurts.
Before you get anywhere near the telly you have to have somebody back you and underwrite the costs of your training, pay your bills and so on. Being a promoter means you're investing a lot of money in novice pros, most of whom you'll lose money on. When you do get one who you actually make money with he's one punch away from losing you money again so it's entirely understandable that promoters are going to do everything they can to protect their fighters and maximise the amount of money they can make out of them. That is never going to change and precludes any chance of any kind of organisation of boxing other than what already exists. You're just not going to find a bunch of philanthropists out there who will invest time and money to create top fighters who will then make the fans the fights want to see and not worry about making money out of them. It's not going to happen.
I appreciate you trying to paint promoters as these poor, risk-taking souls who sink their life savings into young pugs in the hopes that someday they'll make some money to put food on the table. But I assure you, we're no longer in the 1950's. Most promoters have plenty of money, and are not risking their livelihoods when they take on a promising fighter. You have a handful of former boxers who have made their millions and are now engaging in boxing promotions (DLH, PBF, Cotto... to name a few). You also have your old fogies who have already made their millions in boxing and are not hurting for money (Arum, for instance). Others have made their fortunes in other businesses and then choose to pursue boxing promotions. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed a tear for the plight of poor boxing promoters.
Also, let's dispense with the fallacy that promoters sink $$$$ into just any Joe, Dick and Harry that shows up on their doorstep. I'm pretty sure these guys who find good promoters are ones with actual promising futures, who have already shown a remarkable set of skills. So again... it's hard for me to feel sorry for promoters at this point.
Hey..... I get it that some of you get off on the economics of boxing, I really do. All the more power to you. You want to fill reams and reams of boxing threads with arguments over who makes more money than who..... and why Boxer X never got to face Boxer Y...... go for it. Let's just be honest and call a spade a spade. Boxing promoters are by and large a bunch of greedy bastards who'd rather risk huge fights not being made, rather than take 5% less than the rival promoter, just because that's the type of greedy bastards they are.
Another thing. Never fails to amaze me how good boxing fans are at disparaging one another (not you necessarily). "Mug fans"..... "fake arse fans"...... "casual fans"..... there is definitely no shortage of names for boxing fans to throw to one another. It's hilarious to me how fans are reduced to arguing about the financials of boxing, when all we really want to do is watch the fights we want to watch. And we're willing to pay good money for them! It's not like we're asking for them for free. Meanwhile, while we're reduced to arguing about contracts and who ducked who, because the big fights don't get made.... promoters are laughing their ass off because they have a fail-safe product which they can sell no matter how long it's been since its expiration date.
Finance is not my cup of tea. I do my personal finances and do pretty well, thanks very much. But for entertainment I like boxing. And again I couldn't give less of a flying one about any of the economics of the boxers and/or promoters.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Finally.... rules can be made. I don't care what anyone else says or thinks. You want to put together a multi-million dollar fight where you're going to be compensated hand over fist? You need to abide by these simple, non-stringent, very reasonable rules. We rule boxing... and we'll fine and sanction your ass if you don't comply. Saying something can't be done is the best and most surefire way to never having ANYTHING done.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Where there s a will there's a way, hopefully camoters can make the fights we want. Without not making us wait. Didn't anyone really go for the story but Wilder camp held out a 50 mill carrot on a stick to AJ, who refused. Who can thumb that down, 50 mill? is that the kind of old-world promotion that we are missing, just throw the number out and make the fight happen? AJ they claimed was more hung up about the venue then the 50mill.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.
In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had
Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)
Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans ;D (no disrespect)
Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Spoke like a woke bloke from Stoke (though Swansea tomorrow will probably wipe them out) 😄. Think I'm getting the hang of this now, Bilbo Baggins. The zero is neither here nor there, the padding is just the current fashion, and street fighting in Brixton is all the rage. Me mate seen a street promoter in Lancaster Gate abusing his fighter practically forcing him to fight a guy from Regent's Park... The venue was Mayfair and St James, right behind the Equinox gym .. now that's old school promoting right there!
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.
In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had
Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)
Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans ;D (no disrespect)
Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
So your real problem is with fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.
I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's 30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.
Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.
In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had
Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)
Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans ;D (no disrespect)
Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
So your real problem is with
fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.
I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's
30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.
Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that
should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
Perhaps some fighters do want to avoid challenges as well as promoters. I certainly look at Mayweather that way in his final decade. I also think others are carefully managed and the promoters lay down the money, sort out the contracts, and are of course at times looking out for fighters, but we do clearly miss out on a lot of fights because promoters won't let fights happen and do want to prolong that investment. It inevitably means easy fights or avoiding fights.
I don't think fans are spoiled in the slightest. What other sport can have fans forking out like boxing has them do? It is hardly a cheap hobby to follow. In saying that I do wish they would give me the option as some fights I would love to see properly. Kovalev-Canelo will no doubt be a lot of fun and I enjoy the fact that they are actually doing that. Should be more like that.
The elite fighters are spoiled more than the fans. Mayweather was taking the mickey more often than not towards the end. The fans were not spoilt.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Yep, all you non-mug "fans" always know what's best for boxing and how to "fix" it. You're all experts (especially with hindsight), know exactly what matches people should watch and what is pointless.
In the past few weeks, off the top of my head we've had
Spence-Porter (FOTY candidate)
Fury-Otto (almost upset of the year)
Loma-Campbell (P4P no.1 / two elite lightweights)
Kovalev-Yarde (almost another upset)
Browne-Pascal (big veteran upset)
Ramirez-Hooker (140 Unification / FOTY-ish)
Did you enjoy any? Watch any? Know who they are? "Back in the 70s, regular defences, best against best" ..... do me a favour, fake arse fans ;D (no disrespect)
Of course I watched several (on You Tube) as I cannot get to see fight and know who most are except the likes of Otto. Nobody is saying fun fights do not get made, but more that people like Fury do have somewhat weak resumes due to padding, and though upsets can happen, the padding happens to keep the money flowing and to protect the money man. That is why we have to respect fighters who do fight excellent opponents regularly and it should be encouraged more. Wilder was the same for years and people were getting fed up. You think Ali would have dodged anyone like they do today? There is some padding, but he fought everyone. Manny Pac too for a period. You cannot argue with that many top fighters on a resume. That is greatness and I do not care about it being a business or doing the least for the most. Give it your all and that's enough. Too much is given to the 0 and for me that is a no.
So your real problem is with
fighters. At the end of the day they sign the dotted line.
I'm not criticising anyone but it sums up the entire thread. Boxing fans are like spoilt children, never satisfied, always demanding the next one. Even when the business has been explained the reaction is - I don't care about the business side, I know best how to run boxing, it should be like this. There's
30 registered boxing promotions happening today, hardly any will have TV coverage/sponsorship/media coverage. There's a world outside of Bob, Al, Eddie, Oscar and the superstars they invest in.
Every single era of boxing is littered with fights that
should, would, could have been made. Every single era filled with great champions slated for facing "bums." From boxing's inception, it's demise has been predicted.
Perhaps some fighters do want to avoid challenges as well as promoters. I certainly look at Mayweather that way in his final decade. I also think others are carefully managed and the promoters lay down the money, sort out the contracts, and are of course at times looking out for fighters, but we do clearly miss out on a lot of fights because promoters won't let fights happen and do want to prolong that investment. It inevitably means easy fights or avoiding fights.
I don't think fans are spoiled in the slightest. What other sport can have fans forking out like boxing has them do? It is hardly a cheap hobby to follow. In saying that I do wish they would give me the option as some fights I would love to see properly. Kovalev-Canelo will no doubt be a lot of fun and I enjoy the fact that they are actually doing that. Should be more like that.
The elite fighters are spoiled more than the fans. Mayweather was taking the mickey more often than not towards the end. The fans were not spoilt.
Right on the button. But then again everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if someone wants to think that fans are "spoiled children" for wanting only the best matchups, I guess that is their god-given right. If someone would rather concentrate on the business side of boxing, since we're reduced to little else, then I guess that's fine as well.
All I know is that boxing is the only sport where the best don't always face the best, and all because of the greediness and outsized egos of a small handful of sleazy promoters. When two fighters at the top of their game won't face each other because the promoters are haggling over one percentage of the proceeds, the last thing I want to hear is some finance major giving lectures on Finance 101. Not interested. I'll choose to continue sports as entertainment. Entertainment we pay top dollar for.
Boxing is the only sport when, if and when the best finally face the best, it's way beyond their peak years and we're all reduced to "what ifs."
If there was such a thing as reincarnation (which I don't believe in), I'd come back as a boxing promoter because it's the perfect setup. Rob the public of their hard-earned money.... give them shitty or expired product.... watch them coming back for more.... and have them arguing over the "business side" of boxing.
Hahaha! Priceless. Actually..... what is priceless is calling fans spoiled children because they get upset when major fights are withheld while promoters try to "one-up" each other. Priceless.....
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
It is easy to forget when it is presented as spectacle and entertainment, which it is of course, that is also about risk taking. Boxers are by their very nature extreme risk takers as are promoters and managers. Like Fenster said in contests all around this country, which are not televised, boxers, promoters and managers/coaches will be rolling the dice every time two guys step through the ropes. Not just risk of serious injury and death which puts most people off. Risk of having a bad night at the office that ends your career. Risk of not attracting the sponsorship you need to get to the next level, Risk of your fighter ignoring or listening to advice form the corner that cost him or could have helped him win a decision. Risk of bad inept reffs, corrupt reffs, lousy judges, punters not buying tickets and so despite winning you don't get to fight on the next show. Risk of your investment saying something stupid or taking a dodgy supplement or getting into a fight on a night out,or being shot in the leg :-\, risk of being on such another level nobody wants to fight him. The list is endless.
You can't really compare a one off fight to a tennis, golf or team knockout tournament precisely because every time someone fights you are re-rolling the dice, and to a large degree resetting the odds. Form and past progress don't necessarily mean that much, unlike in non-combat sports where the rankings are often good predictors. In boxing there is a favourite but the consequences of losing are far bigger and can end careers if not seriously stall and hamper them. No dodgy risk taking irresponsible promoters and you have no boxing. If you want squeaky clean honest promoters, they would probably not even be interested in promoting boxing.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
It is easy to forget when it is presented as spectacle and entertainment, which it is of course, that is also about risk taking. Boxers are by their very nature extreme risk takers as are promoters and managers. Like Fenster said in contests all around this country, which are not televised, boxers, promoters and managers/coaches will be rolling the dice every time two guys step through the ropes. Not just risk of serious injury and death which puts most people off. Risk of having a bad night at the office that ends your career. Risk of not attracting the sponsorship you need to get to the next level, Risk of your fighter ignoring or listening to advice form the corner that cost him or could have helped him win a decision. Risk of bad inept reffs, corrupt reffs, lousy judges, punters not buying tickets and so despite winning you don't get to fight on the next show. Risk of your investment saying something stupid or taking a dodgy supplement or getting into a fight on a night out,or being shot in the leg :-\, risk of being on such another level nobody wants to fight him. The list is endless.
You can't really compare a one off fight to a tennis, golf or team knockout tournament precisely because every time someone fights you are re-rolling the dice, and to a large degree resetting the odds. Form and past progress don't necessarily mean that much, unlike in non-combat sports where the rankings are often good predictors. In boxing there is a favourite but the consequences of losing are far bigger and can end careers if not seriously stall and hamper them. No dodgy risk taking irresponsible promoters and you have no boxing. If you want squeaky clean honest promoters, they would probably not even be interested in promoting boxing.
I've no doubts nor am I denying the existence of the bottom rung of promoters/fighters. But at the PPV, televised level, what you have are multimillionaire promoters who are rich beyond their wildest dreams. And they STILL manage to keep fights from happening because one wants a 55/45 split, and the other one wants a 50/50 split. Or because one just "can't do business" with the other. At the level we're discussing, both fighters AND promoters are beyond the risks you mention. Promoters' wealth is secure... and fighters have already built a reputation and a following which will persist beyond a loss or a "bad night at the office."
And no... golf and tennis are non-combat sports, that's correct. My only point was that both sports something in common with boxing. For every marquee-name star we watch on TV, there's hundreds upon hundreds of scrubs who barely make a living off the sport, and have to spend their own money and savings just to get from one tournament to the next.
I'm not asking for "squeaky clean honest promoters." I'm asking for some sort of governing entity/body.... call it what you will.... that will stop the practice of major, logical, WANTED fights being made because Arum won't work with Hearn, who won't work with Warren, who won't work with Haymon, who won't work with Arum...... blah, blah, eternal blah. Even those old dogs King and Arum managed to work together like two good little children in order to bring us some fights we wouldn't have seen otherwise.
Again, saying something can't be done (and repeating it over and over again), is the most surefire way to never even hoping to get ANYTHING done.
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Re: Let's talk boxing promoters.... the scourge of boxing today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
It is easy to forget when it is presented as spectacle and entertainment, which it is of course, that is also about risk taking. Boxers are by their very nature extreme risk takers as are promoters and managers. Like Fenster said in contests all around this country, which are not televised, boxers, promoters and managers/coaches will be rolling the dice every time two guys step through the ropes. Not just risk of serious injury and death which puts most people off. Risk of having a bad night at the office that ends your career. Risk of not attracting the sponsorship you need to get to the next level, Risk of your fighter ignoring or listening to advice form the corner that cost him or could have helped him win a decision. Risk of bad inept reffs, corrupt reffs, lousy judges, punters not buying tickets and so despite winning you don't get to fight on the next show. Risk of your investment saying something stupid or taking a dodgy supplement or getting into a fight on a night out,or being shot in the leg :-\, risk of being on such another level nobody wants to fight him. The list is endless.
You can't really compare a one off fight to a tennis, golf or team knockout tournament precisely because every time someone fights you are re-rolling the dice, and to a large degree resetting the odds. Form and past progress don't necessarily mean that much, unlike in non-combat sports where the rankings are often good predictors. In boxing there is a favourite but the consequences of losing are far bigger and can end careers if not seriously stall and hamper them. No dodgy risk taking irresponsible promoters and you have no boxing. If you want squeaky clean honest promoters, they would probably not even be interested in promoting boxing.
I've no doubts nor am I denying the existence of the bottom rung of promoters/fighters. But at the PPV, televised level, what you have are multimillionaire promoters who are rich beyond their wildest dreams. And they STILL manage to keep fights from happening because one wants a 55/45 split, and the other one wants a 50/50 split. Or because one just "can't do business" with the other. At the level we're discussing, both fighters AND promoters are beyond the risks you mention. Promoters' wealth is secure... and fighters have already built a reputation and a following which will persist beyond a loss or a "bad night at the office."
And no... golf and tennis are non-combat sports, that's correct. My only point was that both sports something in common with boxing. For every marquee-name star we watch on TV, there's hundreds upon hundreds of scrubs who barely make a living off the sport, and have to spend their own money and savings just to get from one tournament to the next.
I'm not asking for "squeaky clean honest promoters." I'm asking for some sort of governing entity/body.... call it what you will.... that will stop the practice of major, logical, WANTED fights being made because Arum won't work with Hearn, who won't work with Warren, who won't work with Haymon, who won't work with Arum...... blah, blah, eternal blah. Even those old dogs King and Arum managed to work together like two good little children in order to bring us some fights we wouldn't have seen otherwise.
Again, saying something can't be done (and repeating it over and over again), is the most surefire way to never even hoping to get ANYTHING done.
Damn tits sorry I meant to like it