Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
What about a prime Lennox? Or a 1991 Holyfield? Or 1988 Tyson? You know, the Tyson who just bludgeon Holmes and Spinks
Is it safe to say, that, that exciting Muhammad Ali that we all remember from the 1970s was only just a shell of what he was in the 60s?
And still look what he accomplished in the 1970s, as a heavier and slower and older more flat-footed fighter that he ever was before. And yet still he would mix it up and go toe-to-toe and still out punch and out box everybody
Look how he had to get revenge two times each against Ken Norton and Joe Frazier.
Always wonder what a Foreman rematch would have looked like.
It's hard I think to imagine anybody greater than Muhammad Ali. So what do you all say? Is there anybody seriously in the history of boxing who could be a prime Muhammad Ali? If so who would that be?
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
I always say that although I might be biased, Ali is the GOAT. The few fights before he lost his license were his peak and he looked unstoppable. With that said, nobody is actually unstoppable. I think that it would have taken someone like Holyfield to beat him. Someone who would come forward and could take all that he gave him.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Excellent points.
Yeah prime Evander 1991 would be nearly impossible for anyone, though I believe Foreman in 1973 would demolish Evander. Hell when Foreman was 42 years old he put a hurt on Holyfield that Holyfield says was the worst he ever got. And that is slow old man George Foreman.
Still wish there was a rematch between Ali and Foreman. Foreman would not have fought that same kind of fight. I think formans Jab if he had thrown 25 Jabs per round would have landed consistently on Ali's face, and would have made a big difference after four or five rounds. That coupled with George Foreman not throwing so many bombs and tiring himself out.
Also Ali got away with murder with all the holding and grabbing behind the head
But yeah 1966 1967 Muhammad Ali even 1965 and even 1964 somewhat this guy Cassius Clay was untouchable.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Yes he could be beaten. Incredible ring general he was, yes he was beatable, all fighters are from the best to the worst. Incredible boxer, outstanding skill, but yes he could have been beaten.
Holyfield I think is a guy in ANY era of boxing he'd give the best of the best of the best a hard time. Joe Louis was like that, Marciano to an extent (given he wasn't even really heavyweight sized) was like that. Not that they'd be the ones to beat Ali, but they were just not easy fights at any point in their careers. Foreman kind of evolved and his raw ability as a young fighter is only rivaled by Wilder.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.
Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.
Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.
Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.
......but he's no Joe Louis ;)
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Lennox may have the size and skill to overpower Ali, Tyson had the speed and power to trouble Ali, Holmes had the jab and chin but they are not greater than him.
Greater doesn't always win though does it? We can look back on any number of fights where the overwhelming favorite got beat and in hypothetical matchups sometimes that is lost or dismissed.
Ali took punches from some big boppers in Foreman and Frazier and Shavers, but who is to say what would happen if someone was able to keep Ali at arm's length and force Ali to get on the inside? Never happened. Ali DID struggle with guys with good jabs, but that's later in his career.
Some people feel better putting Ali on a pedestal and saying he's The Goat and he'd never get beaten the same way others do it about Tyson or I've done it about Louis and Marciano, but those are just personal preferences at the end of the day. There's something to like about the swagger, the style, the grit, the heart, the performances put on by those incredible athletes and hell it's something that is across all sport. People love to elevate those they truly enjoyed to godlike status....some of them made their skills seem divine Ali was certainly one of them.
......but he's no Joe Louis ;)
Yes he is greater ;D
BTW i am sure you know this when I say great I was not saying it because it was Ali's saying it was all that he achieved in the ring.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Great thread. I’ve said in the past that I don’t believe he is the GOAT as a Boxer. Obviously the total impact he had was iconic , possibly more than any other human let alone sportsman.
But when you narrow it down to Ali in ‘67, I don’t think anybody does beat him.
But even more intriguing, if there had been an “Ali of ‘68 & ‘69”, I truly think there would be absolutely no argument whatsoever. Shame really.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Yes he is greater ;D
BTW i am sure you know this when I say great I was not saying it because it was Ali's saying it was all that he achieved in the ring.
25 Consecutive Successful Title Defenses...a measurable statistical accomplishment greater than ....wait for it.....wait for it....ANY.OTHER.HEAVYWEIGHT.CHAMPION.....let's put that in a time frame.....EVER.
I rest my case
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Great thread. I’ve said in the past that I don’t believe he is the GOAT as a Boxer. Obviously the total impact he had was iconic , possibly more than any other human let alone sportsman.
But when you narrow it down to Ali in ‘67, I don’t think anybody does beat him.
But even more intriguing, if there had been an “Ali of ‘68 & ‘69”, I truly think there would be absolutely no argument whatsoever. Shame really.
Let us not forget that Joe Louis lost years of his prime as well.....and again 25 title defenses in a row
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Thread of the Year
My finally take on this manner is that '67 Ali would outspeed any fighter in history. Or even 1965-1968 Ali as well. Frazier would've HAD to fight Ali WAY SOONER THAN MARCH 8, 1971, had Ali not been revoked. By 1968 or '69, an Ali-Frazier fight would've been forced to challenge for the title.
In 1968/69, a continuously active Ali would have whipped a younger, less experienced Frazier.
Prime Evander would dog the hell outta Ali but land few shots, maybe a boring fight due to styles. Can't picture Evander trying to cut the ring off for 15 rounds. That's just not his style.
Lennox ' s size would be tough for Ali but Lennox had shit stamina (and Ali would knock him out by the 10th or 11th or 12th round. I can see Lennox gasping for breath by about the 10th round and then Ali would just slice him like a razor blade. Ali wood pretty much due to Lennox Lewis what he did to George Foreman, it would just take him about 5 more rounds too do it. Ali TKO 13
IT WOULD SORT OF LOOK LIKE HOLMES VS COONEY.
Marciano and Dempsey would be too small
the only people I can think of at this may sound crazy but what about a prime Klitschko?
What about a prime Jack Johnson or Joe Louis?
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
I am not going to criticize Joe Louis accomplishments in his 25 defences. As for him beating Ali, he was too small and slow.
Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time and was huge for his time period with the skills to match. Wonder how Johnson would manage 12 and 15 rounds compared to the 45 he was doing?
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I am not going to criticize Joe Louis accomplishments in his 25 defences. As for him beating Ali, he was too small and slow.
Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time and was huge for his time period with the skills to match. Wonder how Johnson would manage 12 and 15 rounds compared to the 45 he was doing?
You're not going to criticize it because you can't. You could say "Who really did he beat?" but I'd counter with "OK then who did he duck?". Louis was 6'2...too slow? Where do you get that? He was fast enough to knock out the majority of the fighters he faced.
Jack Johnson was 6'0 & 1/2", Dempsey was 6'1, Jess Willard was 6'6 & 1/2" ....so "huge" for his time period....meh John L. Sullivan was 5'10 & 1/2", Jim Corbett was 6'1, James J. Jeffries was 6'1 & 1/2". Not really all that much of a "giant" unless you're talking personality and then yeah sure thing.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I am not going to criticize Joe Louis accomplishments in his 25 defences. As for him beating Ali, he was too small and slow.
Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time and was huge for his time period with the skills to match. Wonder how Johnson would manage 12 and 15 rounds compared to the 45 he was doing?
You're not going to criticize it because you can't. You could say "Who really did he beat?" but I'd counter with "OK then who did he duck?". Louis was 6'2...too slow? Where do you get that? He was fast enough to knock out the majority of the fighters he faced.
Jack Johnson was 6'0 & 1/2", Dempsey was 6'1, Jess Willard was 6'6 & 1/2" ....so "huge" for his time period....meh John L. Sullivan was 5'10 & 1/2", Jim Corbett was 6'1, James J. Jeffries was 6'1 & 1/2". Not really all that much of a "giant" unless you're talking personality and then yeah sure thing.
Ok, remember I did not ask for this, you made me do it.
Joe did not duck anyone but whoever they were they were not of the calibre or league of Liston, Frazier and Foreman.
Remember Billy Conn, if a light heavy can out box Joe who was a slow starter and got knocked down early in some of his defences what would a full grown prime Ali do?
Jack Johnson I believe weighed over 15 stones which was heavy for that time period. He had great boxing skills too. I was not talking about height.
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Ok, remember I did not ask for this, you made me do it.
Joe did not duck anyone but whoever they were they were not of the calibre or league of Liston, Frazier and Foreman.
Remember Billy Conn, if a light heavy can out box Joe who was a slow starter and got knocked down early in some of his defences what would a full grown prime Ali do?
Jack Johnson I believe weighed over 15 stones which was heavy for that time period. He had great boxing skills too. I was not talking about height.
I made you do NOTHING. Bring your tired ass arguments. Joe didn't duck anyone, THANK YOU for proving, my point.
Billy Conn got BEAT....twice. You can do nothing but speculate as to what a full grown prime Ali would do...Joe Louis certainly had better nights than the Conn fight and Ali certainly had worse nights than the Williams fight. You make the mistake of taking the best of the best of the best of Ali and then holding up an overall poor Joe Louis performance (one where he needed a KO and GOT IT mind you) and say "You think this could beat this?"....why would it not be Ali as Conn who boxes perfectly for 15 rounds and then gets KO'd late trying to finish the show? Why in your mind does that NEVER happen? Surely Ali never suffered a KO loss like that BUT Joe Louis certainly dealt those out.
And that's the problem in a nutshell with this game...Marciano never lost a single fight and yet "Well he's too small to beat Ali" ....well I guess Marciano stood no chance vs the larger Rex Layne....oh wait.
I'm not hating on Ali by saying he's beatable, I'm merely pointing out Joe Louis' statistical achievement which no heavyweight has ever matched (or probably ever will) match. It's a special achievement and worthy of praise and accolade.
15 stone....210 pounds....again not "giant" ;D
Re: Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Yes he is greater ;D
BTW i am sure you know this when I say great I was not saying it because it was Ali's saying it was all that he achieved in the ring.
25 Consecutive Successful Title Defenses...a measurable statistical accomplishment greater than ....wait for it.....wait for it....ANY.OTHER.HEAVYWEIGHT.CHAMPION.....let's put that in a time frame.....EVER.
I rest my case
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Great thread. I’ve said in the past that I don’t believe he is the GOAT as a Boxer. Obviously the total impact he had was iconic , possibly more than any other human let alone sportsman.
But when you narrow it down to Ali in ‘67, I don’t think anybody does beat him.
But even more intriguing, if there had been an “Ali of ‘68 & ‘69”, I truly think there would be absolutely no argument whatsoever. Shame really.
Let us not forget that Joe Louis lost years of his prime as well.....and again 25 title defenses in a row
Not gonna discount Louis obviously. But he was a bit before my time and I haven’t seen much of him. Although Louis’s record was clearly phenomenal, The way Ali changed the face of HW Boxing is unrivalled. Big guys never had speed and skills like him.
