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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
You are making a case on victories that you know yourself did not happen despite them being on the record books. You also seem to ignore how easily he tends to be outboxed. It is just not the hallmark of an ATG. It would be like Mayweather losing the first 4 rounds to Marquez. And it was wrong to make that fight and miss the weight too.
I make the case that he is a competent fighter. His main attrbutes being durability and having good handspeed and movement. However, he is hardly ATG.
Manny is a much better fighter and despite his close mid career fights gave nearly everyone a chance to do it again. Canelo gets a gift and is never to be seen again.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Canelo IS massively underrated. You are not alone in refusing to acknowledge his quite extraordinary career. He hasn't even finished yet.
You don't have to like him or make excuses for the drugs, his weight shenanigans or pretend Oscar is not a knob. Just admit you and many have underrated him. What if he stops Kov?
(:
"Great" retort. Small wonder you got kudos from Fats. However, I just gave you 8 reasons why Canelo, if anything, is OVERrated. I could've easily made it 10.
You respond with... "he's underrated because I said so."
Keep up the good work.
:thumb:
Make your mind up one minute you don't have the time or inclination to take 30 seconds to use the forums search function, and then you are drafting a bullet pointed and numbered 8 point reply ;D
1. At the age of 23 Canelo faces the most dominant champ of the previous 10 years. The Man. He did what Cotto did only 10 years younger. He joined the likes of Pacquiao, Marquez, Mosely, De la Hoya etc in ending the fight on his feet having learned a lot and not been stopped.
2. Khan has always been MASSIVELY underrated. At times on a good night the guy is like the flash. Canelo did what he had to do sparking him in dramatic fashion. Circus show of a fight is a great compliment. Circus people are often good people and boxing would never be where it is today without them.
3. After debuting at 15 Canelo fought and beat Miguel Vazquez in his third fight. Vazquez was 19 and Canelo 16. Within 4 years Vazquez had won the IBF lightweight title, a belt he held for four years defending that belt 8 times. That hardly makes him a 'nobody, has-been, never-will-be, or over-the-hill ' opponent.
4. All Canelo can do is win the fight he is in. Dodgy decisions are there all the way through boxing from amateur to pro.
5. He fought Feilding after fighting Golovkin twice, he then fought Jacobs. It seem you yourself are happy to cherry pick to confirm your own delusions.
6. The one thing people like youself failed to get from the Golovkin saga was the irrefutable evidence it provided that Canelo had been underrated all along. The first fight was a modern classic and Alvarez proved he belonged at the very top table, even though he should have lost. He has constantly improved and added classy and sophisticated adjustments to his game you have to be a hater to miss.
7. The whole weight thing is bollocks and I am not going to defend him for that.
8. Similarly with the drugs bullshit. No excuses here for that.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Canelo is already a great and currently P4P top five with just about every reputable historian/publication/"expert" and genuine boxing fan on the planet. Why? These people are judging him purely on his boxing career, with a neutral mind and without outside influences. He's beat/fought more top names than anyone apart from Manny. Fact.
However, Beanz is right, if you read forums like this you'd think he was a useless hype job. Why? Simply the fact most fans can't separate their emotion and bias when assessing fighters.
Which is exactly why he is overrated by the media. Every cash cow will be overrated because money talks. You are just like everybody else who gets caught up in official decisions. Can you imagine if some of his decisions went the other way officially? Even if nothing changed about the fights. He just lost. I guarantee that you wouldn’t be saying he was a top 5 p4p guy. It’s only because he officially won these fights that he is rated as highly as he is.
I guarantee you that if he weren’t a cash cow, he wouldn’t be rated anywhere near as high as he is now. As I said about GGG, Canelo hasn’t clearly beaten anybody good except for finally Jacobs. Before that, every decision against a good opponent was controversial. That doesn’t show me an elite fighter. That shows me a really good fighter.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Canelo is definitely overrated by the masses. He may be underrated but some more hardcore fans. @
TitoFan just hates Mexican fighters 😁
Canelo is a really good fighter, but he is massively overrated because he isn’t a top five fighter but is generally a consensus top 3. He is in the bottom half of the top 10.
Bro... I like your short post the best. I'm going to post something now that may cause a small tremor in some places..... so I'd suggest you hold onto something firmly just in case.
Canelo definitely IS a "really good fighter", as you put it. (There. Any shaking? Some here may still be digging out from under the rubble. ;D )
Ok.... now.... having said that, let me correct one more thing. Pleeeeeeease don't egg on those who actually think I hate all Mexican fighters ;D ;D ;D
It's not true. I was a MASSIVE fan (I can't stop using that word now) of MAB, JMM, and Finito Lopez. All classy gentlemen who rose to the top of their sport without the Silver Spoon treatment, or being fed a procession of dead bodies to fatten their artificial records.
Now..... having said that.
I still cannot believe someone here, on a serious boxing forum, would have the unmitigated gall of saying that Canelo is underrated. Not just underrated, but MASSIVELY underrated.
My god..... I'm still reeling from that one. I'm serious..... it's the best comedic line in the history of the world. I'd definitely take Beanz on tour as long as he opened with that line. We'd make a fortune.
The new Face of Boxing is anything BUT underrated. I gave 8 solid reasons why if anything, he's overrated..... and stopped at 8 because I didn't want to be accused of hating all Mexican fighters. ;D ;D
After that, I haven't read one single word that will ever convince me to think otherwise. Those who feel he's underrated are definitely nuthugging to the Nth degree.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
It is like watching Hagler at the tail end of his career. That bit older, slower and vulnerable waiting for a young gun to finally beat him.
Golovkin crushed all his main challengers but did not have that classic rivalry or career defining fight.
The Canelo contests were ruined and as a result do not count.
Ffs! Stop posting like a 10 year old. Of course they fucking count! Both fights were close, so even if you think GGG won, they’re not exactly a robbery either way.
I don’t know what the fuss is all about, I genuinely thought the 1st fight was a draw, and I genuinely thought Canelo one the 2nd. But I totally see how people might have had it different.
There have been way worse decisions. Come on, I’m not a fan of Canelo , and until GGG started whoring himself out to Canelo like a little bitch, I was a fan of his. But you have to see it as it is.
Some of us think GGG should've won both fights, so go figure. Canelo wasn't going to lose a decision in Vegas... and anyone who thinks otherwise probably still believes in the stork.
This time around GGG was the bigger name, so he probably got a little bit of a consolation gift decision.
The bigger name gets the nod. And there ain't no bigger name in Vegas than Canelo.
Like I said, I get that, and although I don’t agree, I wouldn’t argue massively against it. There wasn’t a lot in it.
But my point is, you know you’re not gonna get a decision in Vegas against Canelo after the first fight.
So why bother chasing a rematch unless you’re gonna go in hard looking for a KO?
GGG looked less likely to KO Canelo in the 2nd fight than he did in the 1st. So why bother?
The object of professional boxing is to earn as much money as possible and he would earn in one defence against Canelo the same as if he had in 10 defences. I am sure he would have loved to tell Canelo and Oscar where to go but the economics of it meant he had to wait and take the rematch.
Just like Hagler did with Leonard.
Unsurprisingly I don’t see it like that. When Oscar was doing all his “A side,Diva stuff” , I GGG had carried on as he was and creating his own legacy, GBP were running out of opponents for the Caneloweight title, and credibility was running low.
They should’ve made Oscar boil in his own piss by ignoring him and they would’ve had nowhere to go.
Instead he became Oscar’s bitch.
You stop posting like a 3 year old girl who believes in fairies and unicorns. Are you seriously telling me that GGG should turn away career high paydays? There are you tubers boxing on ppv who are absolutely rubbish at the sport and BJS is on the undercard, the boxing world is crazy. GGG did the right thing just admit it.
Now now, stop using my lines. Just because I said you were posting like a 10 year old! ;D;D
GGG’s stock was rising. If he’d have beaten Jacobs, then BJS, then maybe Charlo, and possibly gone up for a SMW title , he would’ve turned the tables.
Whereas Canelo was running out of guys who were prepared to boil down to Caneloweight. He was becoming a joke figure. But Oscar timed it to perfection, getting GGG just as he was getting over the hill.
And GGG Knew this was the case, and that is why he held out for the cash cow.
I mean, come on, your opponent fails a drug test, you’ve got the chance to throw him under a bus, but no, you put your career on hold and wait until he’s ready. Dear oh dear.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
It is like watching Hagler at the tail end of his career. That bit older, slower and vulnerable waiting for a young gun to finally beat him.
Golovkin crushed all his main challengers but did not have that classic rivalry or career defining fight.
The Canelo contests were ruined and as a result do not count.
Ffs! Stop posting like a 10 year old. Of course they fucking count! Both fights were close, so even if you think GGG won, they’re not exactly a robbery either way.
I don’t know what the fuss is all about, I genuinely thought the 1st fight was a draw, and I genuinely thought Canelo one the 2nd. But I totally see how people might have had it different.
There have been way worse decisions. Come on, I’m not a fan of Canelo , and until GGG started whoring himself out to Canelo like a little bitch, I was a fan of his. But you have to see it as it is.
Some of us think GGG should've won both fights, so go figure. Canelo wasn't going to lose a decision in Vegas... and anyone who thinks otherwise probably still believes in the stork.
This time around GGG was the bigger name, so he probably got a little bit of a consolation gift decision.
The bigger name gets the nod. And there ain't no bigger name in Vegas than Canelo.
Like I said, I get that, and although I don’t agree, I wouldn’t argue massively against it. There wasn’t a lot in it.
But my point is, you know you’re not gonna get a decision in Vegas against Canelo after the first fight.
So why bother chasing a rematch unless you’re gonna go in hard looking for a KO?
GGG looked less likely to KO Canelo in the 2nd fight than he did in the 1st. So why bother?
The object of professional boxing is to earn as much money as possible and he would earn in one defence against Canelo the same as if he had in 10 defences. I am sure he would have loved to tell Canelo and Oscar where to go but the economics of it meant he had to wait and take the rematch.
Just like Hagler did with Leonard.
Unsurprisingly I don’t see it like that. When Oscar was doing all his “A side,Diva stuff” , I GGG had carried on as he was and creating his own legacy, GBP were running out of opponents for the Caneloweight title, and credibility was running low.
They should’ve made Oscar boil in his own piss by ignoring him and they would’ve had nowhere to go.
Instead he became Oscar’s bitch.
You stop posting like a 3 year old girl who believes in fairies and unicorns. Are you seriously telling me that GGG should turn away career high paydays? There are you tubers boxing on ppv who are absolutely rubbish at the sport and BJS is on the undercard, the boxing world is crazy. GGG did the right thing just admit it.
Now now, stop using my lines. Just because I said you were posting like a 10 year old! ;D;D
GGG’s stock was rising. If he’d have beaten Jacobs, then BJS, then maybe Charlo, and possibly gone up for a SMW title , he would’ve turned the tables.
Whereas Canelo was running out of guys who were prepared to boil down to Caneloweight. He was becoming a joke figure. But Oscar timed it to perfection, getting GGG just as he was getting over the hill.
And GGG Knew this was the case, and that is why he held out for the cash cow.
I mean, come on, your opponent fails a drug test, you’ve got the chance to throw him under a bus, but no, you put your career on hold and wait until he’s ready. Dear oh dear.
Precisely. It is not as though Golovkin was struggling for cash after the first Canelo fight anyway. I disagree that the goal is money and only money. I believe integrity also plays a role in those with a conscience. Golovkin sold out in that regard.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
I'm gonna start practicing, since Beanz is probably too busy with his business to come across the pond and tour in the States.
Let's see...........
"Hey how you guys doin' tonight? Fine looking crowd we got here. Everyone ready for some good laughs tonight?!?
Alright.... I'll start you off with one of my favorites. A priest and a rabbi walk into a bar. Who's there to greet them, but me and the MASSIVELY UNDERRATED Canelo Alvarez................"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYVO5bUFww0
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Canelo is already a great and currently P4P top five with just about every reputable historian/publication/"expert" and genuine boxing fan on the planet. Why? These people are judging him purely on his boxing career, with a neutral mind and without outside influences. He's beat/fought more top names than anyone apart from Manny. Fact.
However, Beanz is right, if you read forums like this you'd think he was a useless hype job. Why? Simply the fact most fans can't separate their emotion and bias when assessing fighters.
Which is exactly why he is overrated by the media. Every cash cow will be overrated because money talks. You are just like everybody else who gets caught up in official decisions. Can you imagine if some of his decisions went the other way officially? Even if nothing changed about the fights. He just lost. I guarantee that you wouldn’t be saying he was a top 5 p4p guy. It’s only because he officially won these fights that he is rated as highly as he is.
I guarantee you that if he weren’t a cash cow, he wouldn’t be rated anywhere near as high as he is now. As I said about GGG, Canelo hasn’t clearly beaten anybody good except for finally Jacobs. Before that, every decision against a good opponent was controversial. That doesn’t show me an elite fighter. That shows me a really good fighter.
If decisions went against him my opinion would hardly be much different, in fact he wouldn't be so hated, would he? The reason he rates so high is the standard of his opposition and the fact he's proved he can consistently compete with world-class fighters and all styles. I believe Golovkin beat him twice, however, my regard for Canelo GREW with each contest. Lara fight proved he can hold his own against a world-class slickster.
I'm not arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
The difference between a "W" and "L" alters the perception, however, there's a world of difference between an outright "robbery" and a fight which can go either way. The ONLY man to convincingly beat Canelo is Floyd (a legend). Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
You set the bar far to high (the same for Golovkin), I don't view boxing like you, anyone who proves they can beat world-class opposition and hang with great fighters is elite. The very fact you say "he hasn't clearly beat anyone good apart from Jacobs," says it all. Canelo's 2nd and 3rd tier opposition is packed with "champions," former "champions" and world-rated fighters. All different styles.
I don't need excuses or outside influences to form my opinion, it's not media hype or cash cow favouritism, his record speaks for itself.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
I must say..... I've seen people contradict themselves from one post to the next. Hell..... I've even done it myself. But I don't believe I've EVER seen anyone contradict themselves from one sentence to the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I'm not arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
Still..... it's good to know that one can be a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever, and yet not have their opinion disregarded.
Let's reexamine the point about the Floyd-Canelo humiliating shutout fight one more time, for the benefit of those who STILL haven't understood the point.
The fact that you GET a fight with Floyd Mayweather, in and of itself, should not be used as a measure of your greatness. If you clamored long and hard enough.... and were granted a fight with Floyd.... and got summarily and predictably shut out and embarrassed.... you haven't proven a DAMN THING, other than you should have never gotten that fight in the first place. It happened to Hatton..... it happened to Canelo. Both had fan bases that DEMANDED a fight vs. Floyd as proof of their stupid and ridiculous p4p claims. What happened? The inevitable. At least Hatton can say he landed a few on Floyd before getting knocked out. Canelo can't even claim as much. Most of his punches missed by FEET.
Who has earned shots at Mayweather and fought competitive fights? Maidana, Cotto, Judah, Mosley, DLH. Hell..... even the MEGA showdown with Pacquiao, although hugely disappointing, was LIGHT-YEARS more competitive than the Canelo fiasco. Floyd Mayweather showed exactly how HUGE the chasm was between himself and Canelo. All Canelo did was show up and flail around for 12 rounds. Could've been 112 rounds.... Canelo would STILL be trying to touch him. AGAIN I mention that other fiasco, where Canelo knocked out a man half his size (and a weak chin to boot), Amir Khan. I suppose you give him all sorts of credit for that one too. And yet WE'RE the clowns. Priceless.
Tell you what. I gave you and Beanie 8 good reasons why Canelo is overrated. How about you coming up with ONE legitimate reason as to why you think he's (cough) underrated. Or better yet........ MASSIVELY underrated... LOL.
Before you attempt that ill-fated task, I'll kindly put the definition of "underrated" on here so you and your buddy can understand why you're wrong.
"underrated - underestimate the extent, value, or importance of (someone or something)"
Now..... is anybody here, including myself, underestimating Canelo's value or importance to boxing?? I'd say hell no. How about that? In fact, we all here recognize Canelo's value and importance to boxing more than you know. That is precisely the fact. Some of us here are all too aware of Canelo's importance to boxing. Unfortunately the dog and pony show which Canelo's entire career since Day One has worked to perfection. From the early coddling, record-padding years... to his carefully groomed status as a star (remember.... stardom and greatness are not one and the same).
Underrated? I think not.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Canelo is already a great and currently P4P top five with just about every reputable historian/publication/"expert" and genuine boxing fan on the planet. Why? These people are judging him purely on his boxing career, with a neutral mind and without outside influences. He's beat/fought more top names than anyone apart from Manny. Fact.
However, Beanz is right, if you read forums like this you'd think he was a useless hype job. Why? Simply the fact most fans can't separate their emotion and bias when assessing fighters.
Which is exactly why he is overrated by the media. Every cash cow will be overrated because money talks. You are just like everybody else who gets caught up in official decisions. Can you imagine if some of his decisions went the other way officially? Even if nothing changed about the fights. He just lost. I guarantee that you wouldn’t be saying he was a top 5 p4p guy. It’s only because he officially won these fights that he is rated as highly as he is.
I guarantee you that if he weren’t a cash cow, he wouldn’t be rated anywhere near as high as he is now. As I said about GGG, Canelo hasn’t clearly beaten anybody good except for finally Jacobs. Before that, every decision against a good opponent was controversial. That doesn’t show me an elite fighter. That shows me a really good fighter.
If decisions went against him my opinion would hardly be much different, in fact he wouldn't be so hated, would he? The reason he rates so high is the standard of his opposition and the fact he's proved he can consistently compete with world-class fighters and all styles. I believe Golovkin beat him twice, however, my regard for Canelo
GREW with each contest. Lara fight proved he can hold his own against a world-class slickster.
I'm not
arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
The difference between a "W" and "L" alters the perception, however, there's a world of difference between an outright "robbery" and a fight which can go either way. The
ONLY man to convincingly beat Canelo is Floyd (a legend). Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
You set the bar far to high (the same for Golovkin), I don't view boxing like you, anyone who proves they can beat world-class opposition and hang with great fighters is
elite. The very fact you say "he hasn't clearly beat anyone good apart from Jacobs," says it all. Canelo's 2nd and 3rd tier opposition is packed with "champions," former "champions" and world-rated fighters. All different styles.
I don't need excuses or outside influences to form my opinion, it's not media hype or cash cow favouritism, his record speaks for itself.
So elite to you just means any fighter who is good? I guess I will have to remember that next time when I’m using that term. What term should we use to distinguish between Mayweather and Canelo if not using the terms elite and great? Or do you make no distinction?
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I must say..... I've seen people contradict themselves from one post to the next. Hell..... I've even done it myself. But I don't believe I've EVER seen anyone contradict themselves from one sentence to the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I'm not arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
Still..... it's good to know that one can be a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever, and yet not have their opinion disregarded.
There's zero contradiction.
1. The first quote refers to reputable historians/publications/"experts" and boxing fans who believe Canelo beat Golovkin. I didn't, but enough unbiased judges and rational minded fans did, therefore I respect their opinion.
2. The second quote needs zero explanation.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I must say..... I've seen people contradict themselves from one post to the next. Hell..... I've even done it myself. But I don't believe I've EVER seen anyone contradict themselves from one sentence to the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I'm not arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
Still..... it's good to know that one can be a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever, and yet not have their opinion disregarded.
There's
zero contradiction.
1. The first quote refers to reputable historians/publications/"experts" and boxing fans who believe Canelo beat Golovkin. I didn't, but enough unbiased judges and rational minded fans did, therefore I respect their opinion.
2. The second quote needs
zero explanation.
Oh shit 😲 no offense, actually it's a compliment.... fuck me but you just did exactly what I praised Beanz for! You integrated different posts and constructed a sound argument! Well done.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I must say..... I've seen people contradict themselves from one post to the next. Hell..... I've even done it myself. But I don't believe I've EVER seen anyone contradict themselves from one sentence to the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I'm not arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
Still..... it's good to know that one can be a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever, and yet not have their opinion disregarded.
There's
zero contradiction.
1. The first quote refers to reputable historians/publications/"experts" and boxing fans who believe Canelo beat Golovkin. I didn't, but enough unbiased judges and rational minded fans did, therefore I respect their opinion.
2. The second quote needs
zero explanation.
I feel like then you are admitting that you are arrogant enough to disregard differing opinions. It’s alright to disregard others’ opinions if you feel like they are biased or uneducated. I definitely listen to everybody’s opinions, but there are times when said person has no idea what they are talking about, therefore, I don’t take them seriously.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
This all started with Beanz calling Canelo "massively underrated."
As I've clearly stated, the definition of underrate is "underestimate the extent, value, or importance of (someone or something)".
To my knowledge, no one here is underestimating the value or importance of Canelo to boxing today. To do so would be ludicrous.
My own personal opinion is that if anything, Canelo is overrated. I gave several reasons as to why I believe that. I am not alone in my thinking.
Canelo's loss to Floyd has been used by both camps as an arguing point to back up their claims. My own opinion is that getting a fight is not the same as belonging in a fight or subsequently performing competitively in a fight.
I've never hidden my dislike for Canelo, although at the same time I make it clear that I was a huge fan of MAB, JMM, and Finito Lopez. Fighters who, in my estimation, earned every accolade they received while boxing.
Beyond that, anything else would just be repeating myself... and I don't like to do that too much.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Canelo is already a great and currently P4P top five with just about every reputable historian/publication/"expert" and genuine boxing fan on the planet. Why? These people are judging him purely on his boxing career, with a neutral mind and without outside influences. He's beat/fought more top names than anyone apart from Manny. Fact.
However, Beanz is right, if you read forums like this you'd think he was a useless hype job. Why? Simply the fact most fans can't separate their emotion and bias when assessing fighters.
Which is exactly why he is overrated by the media. Every cash cow will be overrated because money talks. You are just like everybody else who gets caught up in official decisions. Can you imagine if some of his decisions went the other way officially? Even if nothing changed about the fights. He just lost. I guarantee that you wouldn’t be saying he was a top 5 p4p guy. It’s only because he officially won these fights that he is rated as highly as he is.
I guarantee you that if he weren’t a cash cow, he wouldn’t be rated anywhere near as high as he is now. As I said about GGG, Canelo hasn’t clearly beaten anybody good except for finally Jacobs. Before that, every decision against a good opponent was controversial. That doesn’t show me an elite fighter. That shows me a really good fighter.
If decisions went against him my opinion would hardly be much different, in fact he wouldn't be so hated, would he? The reason he rates so high is the standard of his opposition and the fact he's proved he can consistently compete with world-class fighters and all styles. I believe Golovkin beat him twice, however, my regard for Canelo
GREW with each contest. Lara fight proved he can hold his own against a world-class slickster.
I'm not
arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
The difference between a "W" and "L" alters the perception, however, there's a world of difference between an outright "robbery" and a fight which can go either way. The
ONLY man to convincingly beat Canelo is Floyd (a legend). Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
You set the bar far to high (the same for Golovkin), I don't view boxing like you, anyone who proves they can beat world-class opposition and hang with great fighters is
elite. The very fact you say "he hasn't clearly beat anyone good apart from Jacobs," says it all. Canelo's 2nd and 3rd tier opposition is packed with "champions," former "champions" and world-rated fighters. All different styles.
I don't need excuses or outside influences to form my opinion, it's not media hype or cash cow favouritism, his record speaks for itself.
So elite to you just means any fighter who is good? I guess I will have to remember that next time when I’m using that term. What term should we use to distinguish between Mayweather and Canelo if not using the terms elite and great? Or do you make no distinction?
Semantics... I knew this was where we were heading, been through it a million times.
Floyd can sit alongside Leonard, Duran, Ali
Canelo will "currently" sit with Oscar, BHOP, Chavez
They're all great fighters but there's a distinctive difference between the first and second group.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Canelo is what he is. Ginger Boy, cute, talented, sturdy as hell, good pop, apparently good chin, lost to GGG, lost to Floyd, schooled by Khan, mehhhhh...... He's not the best.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Canelo is already a great and currently P4P top five with just about every reputable historian/publication/"expert" and genuine boxing fan on the planet. Why? These people are judging him purely on his boxing career, with a neutral mind and without outside influences. He's beat/fought more top names than anyone apart from Manny. Fact.
However, Beanz is right, if you read forums like this you'd think he was a useless hype job. Why? Simply the fact most fans can't separate their emotion and bias when assessing fighters.
Which is exactly why he is overrated by the media. Every cash cow will be overrated because money talks. You are just like everybody else who gets caught up in official decisions. Can you imagine if some of his decisions went the other way officially? Even if nothing changed about the fights. He just lost. I guarantee that you wouldn’t be saying he was a top 5 p4p guy. It’s only because he officially won these fights that he is rated as highly as he is.
I guarantee you that if he weren’t a cash cow, he wouldn’t be rated anywhere near as high as he is now. As I said about GGG, Canelo hasn’t clearly beaten anybody good except for finally Jacobs. Before that, every decision against a good opponent was controversial. That doesn’t show me an elite fighter. That shows me a really good fighter.
If decisions went against him my opinion would hardly be much different, in fact he wouldn't be so hated, would he? The reason he rates so high is the standard of his opposition and the fact he's proved he can consistently compete with world-class fighters and all styles. I believe Golovkin beat him twice, however, my regard for Canelo
GREW with each contest. Lara fight proved he can hold his own against a world-class slickster.
I'm not
arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
The difference between a "W" and "L" alters the perception, however, there's a world of difference between an outright "robbery" and a fight which can go either way. The
ONLY man to convincingly beat Canelo is Floyd (a legend). Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
You set the bar far to high (the same for Golovkin), I don't view boxing like you, anyone who proves they can beat world-class opposition and hang with great fighters is
elite. The very fact you say "he hasn't clearly beat anyone good apart from Jacobs," says it all. Canelo's 2nd and 3rd tier opposition is packed with "champions," former "champions" and world-rated fighters. All different styles.
I don't need excuses or outside influences to form my opinion, it's not media hype or cash cow favouritism, his record speaks for itself.
So elite to you just means any fighter who is good? I guess I will have to remember that next time when I’m using that term. What term should we use to distinguish between Mayweather and Canelo if not using the terms elite and great? Or do you make no distinction?
Semantics... I knew this was where we were heading, been through it a million times.
Floyd can sit alongside Leonard, Duran, Ali
Canelo will "currently" sit with Oscar, BHOP, Chavez
They're all great fighters but there's a distinctive difference between the first and second group.
I agree that it is semantics but these are important distinctions. That’s the point of the post. To show that GGG is great, but isn’t on the same tier as elite fighters.
And you put Canelo on the same tier as Bhop, Oscar, and Chavez? Jeez. No wonder why you think that everybody underrates him. I think you far and away overrate him with that. If he were on their tier, I would say he should be a consensus #1 p4p right now.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
He didn't say "which" Chavez. ;)
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
He didn't say "which" Chavez. ;)
Ha
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Just for fun, I will compare Canelo to the three guys Fenster said that he is on par with in greatness. I’m going to guess that afterwards he will try to back pedal saying it’s not what he meant, but oh well. I will do it any way. Canelo could still possibly become an ATG. He is still young and if he proves to be extremely durable, then he could have a long reign at the top of the boxing world and become on the same tier as these guys. Anyways, here I go.
De la Hoya: five years into his career, he beat an ATG in Whitaker. Close fight that could have gone either way. Whitaker is on the same tier as Mayweather. Eight years into his career (I get that I’m not counting amateur experience) Canelo fought Mayweather and got completely shut out. Coincidentally, both were 23 years old. Both of their opponents were past their best I would say. De la Hoya fought and lost a very controversial decision to Trinidad. Most people, including me, thought the Oscar should have easily won. Canelo fought GGG twice and won once and had one draw. Majority of people thought that GGG deserved to win both fights. I would guess that I could compare Trinidad and GGG in greatness. Let’s just go with it. So I would say that Oscar handled Tito much easier than Canelo handled GGG. Oscar lost a SD against Mosley and then got robbed again in their second fight. Most everyone saw de la Hoya winning that fight. Mosley is another ATG fighter. He also fought Mayweather at the end of his career and gave him a really close fight (who we already mentioned shut out Canelo). Canelo fought close fights against Lara and Trout. I’m not sure which of Oscars opponents I would compare those two to, but let’s go with Vargas comparing their level of greatness. Oscar knocked out Vargas and convincingly won. You could maybe come back with de la Hoya had a close win against Quartay.
The point is, I know that all fighters will have some close fights no matter what. It’s the nature of boxing. Styles make fights. The difference is that Oscar proved to be able to convincingly beat great opponents on occasion and even have debateable decisions with truly elite fighters (Whitaker and Mayweather). Canelo has not proven that at all. Not saying he still can’t, but he is not at all on that level. His resume does not rival Oscars in the slightest IMO.
Bhop: Bhop could be compared to GGG. A lot of his greatness comes from his longevity. Bhop also completely dismantled top guys in the division. Absolutely embarrassed Tito, the only person to stop De la Hoya (I get that the weight difference was pretty significant but it’s still a pretty good accomplishment), shut out Pavlik who was supposed to be the next big thing and was the MAN at middleweight at the time, went up in weight and destroyed Tarver who was at the top of his game.
Again, he had some close/controversial losses (Calzaghe and Taylor) against good/great fighters, but that’s fine because he proved to be able to completely dominate some good and great fighters. As I’ve said countless times, Canelo has yet to dominate a really good fighter. He beat Jacobs convincingly but he didn’t dominate and every other good fighter he has faced it has been a close decision that could have gone either way.
Chavez: his resume may not be as good as the previous two, but like Bhop, he went on a tear and just wrecked his competition. He got a controversial draw against Whitaker, but proved to at least be able to hang with him. He fought a lot of solid fighters and reigned at the top for a long time. Again, he didn’t just squeak by these good fighters, he absolutely destroyed some of them. Let’s just look at one. A lot of people say that he ruined Camacho by how badly he beat him. Canelo doesn’t even have one match that he beat a fighter near that caliber that convincingly.
Really long post (I’m taking my post advice from @TitoFan) but I’m showing how ridiculous it is to say that Canelo is on the same tier as those guys. I agree that these fighters are a tier below people like Mayweather, Duran, Ali, etc, but Canelo is at very least a tier below them. If not two tiers. He hasn’t proven yet to be more than a great fighter that can get close decisions against good fighters.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
A note about BHop, Trinidad, and DLH. Trinidad and DLH faced off at 147. From there they both went to 154, then to 160. Both lost to Hopkins, a lifelong middleweight, at 160. But whereas Trinidad had KO'ed William Joppy prior to that, another middleweight champion, DLH's foray into middleweight wasn't nearly as impressive. Against BHop, Trinidad went the full fight before being TKO'ed in the last round. Against BHop, DLH never looked like he belonged, before being dispatched with a glancing liver shot in the 9th. Not really trying to make a point here, other than to put my own twist on Trinidad and DLH in the heavier weights.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
A note about BHop, Trinidad, and DLH. Trinidad and DLH faced off at 147. From there they both went to 154, then to 160. Both lost to Hopkins, a lifelong middleweight, at 160. But whereas Trinidad had KO'ed William Joppy prior to that, another middleweight champion, DLH's foray into middleweight wasn't nearly as impressive. Against BHop, Trinidad went the full fight before being TKO'ed in the last round. Against BHop, DLH never looked like he belonged, before being dispatched with a glancing liver shot in the 9th. Not really trying to make a point here, other than to put my own twist on Trinidad and DLH in the heavier weights.
I agree. De la Hoya didn’t really ever belong at middleweight. Trinidad may have been the same, but as you said, he did dismantle Joppy. He at least proved to be able to hold his own at middleweight. De la Hoya only proved to struggle with Sturm at middleweight. Also, De la Hoya started lighter than welterweight. Trinidad was a full blown welterweight.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
I agree that it is semantics but these are important distinctions. That’s the point of the post. To show that GGG is great, but isn’t on the same tier as elite fighters.
And you put Canelo on the same tier as Bhop, Oscar, and Chavez? Jeez. No wonder why you think that everybody underrates him. I think you far and away overrate him with that. If he were on their tier, I would say he should be a consensus #1 p4p right now.
The comparison wasn't literal and you've ignored the crucial word - "currently." At the moment Canelo is a multi-weight champion, P4P rated and biggest star in boxing, which could all change within a couple of fights/years. Comparing individual performances across eras is impossible, nothing but fantasy.
You asked for a distinction between elite and great, I gave you boxing gods and HOF-greats. Canelo will never be a boxing god, he's "currently" a first ballot HOFamer (whether you like it or not), a few bad losses his stock will drop significantly, look at Roy, went from "superman" to chinny cherry picker in the blink of an eye.
I never said "everyone" underrates Canelo, I started by explaining all reputable publications have him top 5 P4P and he's the biggest star, however, reading fan forums like this I get the impression he is underrated not overrated. You yourself are a prime example, anyone reading your posts would think Canelo has never faced a top name apart from Golovkin.
Name some current fighters who meet the standards you've put on Golovkin and Canelo? Lets start with your P4P no.1 - Bud?
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Canelo is already a great and currently P4P top five with just about every reputable historian/publication/"expert" and genuine boxing fan on the planet. Why? These people are judging him purely on his boxing career, with a neutral mind and without outside influences. He's beat/fought more top names than anyone apart from Manny. Fact.
However, Beanz is right, if you read forums like this you'd think he was a useless hype job. Why? Simply the fact most fans can't separate their emotion and bias when assessing fighters.
Which is exactly why he is overrated by the media. Every cash cow will be overrated because money talks. You are just like everybody else who gets caught up in official decisions. Can you imagine if some of his decisions went the other way officially? Even if nothing changed about the fights. He just lost. I guarantee that you wouldn’t be saying he was a top 5 p4p guy. It’s only because he officially won these fights that he is rated as highly as he is.
I guarantee you that if he weren’t a cash cow, he wouldn’t be rated anywhere near as high as he is now. As I said about GGG, Canelo hasn’t clearly beaten anybody good except for finally Jacobs. Before that, every decision against a good opponent was controversial. That doesn’t show me an elite fighter. That shows me a really good fighter.
If decisions went against him my opinion would hardly be much different, in fact he wouldn't be so hated, would he? The reason he rates so high is the standard of his opposition and the fact he's proved he can consistently compete with world-class fighters and all styles. I believe Golovkin beat him twice, however, my regard for Canelo
GREW with each contest. Lara fight proved he can hold his own against a world-class slickster.
I'm not
arrogant enough to disregard the opinions of those who differ.
The difference between a "W" and "L" alters the perception, however, there's a world of difference between an outright "robbery" and a fight which can go either way. The
ONLY man to convincingly beat Canelo is Floyd (a legend). Any fan who thinks a loss to a legend can be used as a stick to beat is a clown and deserve no respect whatsoever.
You set the bar far to high (the same for Golovkin), I don't view boxing like you, anyone who proves they can beat world-class opposition and hang with great fighters is
elite. The very fact you say "he hasn't clearly beat anyone good apart from Jacobs," says it all. Canelo's 2nd and 3rd tier opposition is packed with "champions," former "champions" and world-rated fighters. All different styles.
I don't need excuses or outside influences to form my opinion, it's not media hype or cash cow favouritism, his record speaks for itself.
So elite to you just means any fighter who is good? I guess I will have to remember that next time when I’m using that term. What term should we use to distinguish between Mayweather and Canelo if not using the terms elite and great? Or do you make no distinction?
Semantics... I knew this was where we were heading, been through it a million times.
Floyd can sit alongside Leonard, Duran, Ali
Canelo will "currently" sit with Oscar, BHOP, Chavez
They're all great fighters but there's a distinctive difference between the first and second group.
I agree that it is semantics but these are important distinctions. That’s the point of the post. To show that GGG is great, but isn’t on the same tier as elite fighters.
And you put Canelo on the same tier as Bhop, Oscar, and Chavez? Jeez. No wonder why you think that everybody underrates him. I think you far and away overrate him with that. If he were on their tier, I would say he should be a consensus #1 p4p right now.
The comparison wasn't
literal and you've ignored the crucial word - "currently." At the moment Canelo is a multi-weight champion, P4P rated and biggest
star in boxing, which could all change within a couple of fights/years.
You asked for a distinction between elite and great, I gave you boxing gods and HOF-greats. Canelo will never be a boxing god, he's "currently" a first ballot HOFamer (whether you like it or not), a few bad losses his stock will drop significantly, look at Roy, went from "superman" to chinny cherry picker in the blink of an eye.
I never said "everyone" underrates Canelo, I started by explaining all reputable publications have him top 5 P4P and he's the biggest
star, however, reading fan forums like this I get the impression he is underrated not overrated. You yourself are a prime example, anyone reading your posts would think Canelo has never faced a top name apart from Golovkin.
Name some current fighters who meet the standards you've put on Golovkin and Canelo? Lets start with your P4P no.1 - Bud?
I said in my post about comparing the guys that you compared to Canelo that you would try to move the goal post which is what you did. I’ve already answered your questions. You are just grasping at straws now. I’ve told you before that you are a poster who just loves to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. That’s why I hate watching sports talk shows because it’s just a bunch of people disagreeing and being controversial just for the sake of it.
It’s unfortunate too because you do make some good points sometimes and are at least pretty knowledgeable, but your attitude of having to be against the norm makes it hard to have a good debate.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
And before you come in and say it, no I’m not avoiding your question. I already proved what you said way wrong and you won’t just admit it and move forward. You had to backtrack. Therefore there is no reason to debate further.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Comparing individual performances across eras is impossible, nothing but fantasy. How can we determine one fighter was REALISTICALLY tougher to beat than an other? We can't.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.
I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.
Blimey :D
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”
1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.
By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.
So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.
He’s overrated.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.
I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.
Blimey :D
It’s not a competition. Like I said before, you are like those sports analysts who love to disagree to get ratings. That’s why I stopped watching them. It’s not interesting if I know they don’t believe what they are saying. I’m not angry just bored and know that you will never change your opinion with good solid evidence. Again, it’s not just this situation but what I have seen of you over a long period of time.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”
1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.
By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.
So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.
He’s overrated.
It’s almost impossible to be underrated while at the same time being the biggest money maker in the sport. Nobody in boxing gets a bigger push. If you think he’s underrated, you must think that he is one of the greatest of all time because from what I see, he is rated very highly by most “experts.” Much more highly than I think he has proven to be.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”
1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.
By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.
So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.
He’s overrated.
It’s almost impossible to be underrated while at the same time being the biggest money maker in the sport. Nobody in boxing gets a bigger push. If you think he’s underrated, you must think that he is one of the greatest of all time because from what I see, he is rated very highly by most “experts.” Much more highly than I think he has proven to be.
The strategy was clear from the get-go and it worked to perfection. Make Canelo a "star"..... then pick and choose your opponents with the "A side" weight behind contractual demands. Pure Hollywood.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”
1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.
By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.
So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.
He’s overrated.
It’s almost impossible to be underrated while at the same time being the biggest money maker in the sport. Nobody in boxing gets a bigger push. If you think he’s underrated, you must think that he is one of the greatest of all time because from what I see, he is rated very highly by most “experts.” Much more highly than I think he has proven to be.
The strategy was clear from the get-go and it worked to perfection. Make Canelo a "star"..... then pick and choose your opponents with the "A side" weight behind contractual demands. Pure Hollywood.
He is the Miley Cyrus of boxing. You have to put in the work, but are ultimately selected and pushed.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
I wonder how it effects a fighters head to win but lose. I guess they know going into it it’s part of the game. GGG will always be the man to me. He is the last guy I saw fight live, I mean they are all live, just the last one I saw live. You can feel the guys punches six rows back like a bass drum at a concert
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.
I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.
Blimey :D
It’s not a competition. Like I said before, you are like those sports analysts who love to disagree to get ratings. That’s why I stopped watching them. It’s not interesting if I know they don’t believe what they are saying. I’m not angry just bored and know that you will never change your opinion with good solid evidence. Again, it’s not just this situation but what I have seen of you over a long period of time.
Opinions aren't evidence. And i've been polite saying we're struggling with interpretation, you ignore my points then tell me what I really think. I have no idea what your problem is.
Canelo has beaten over a dozen world-class fighters, all styles, champions, former champions, HOF fighters. I do not respect fans who strip fighters records down putting a negative spin on everything. It is childish. I have only stated Canelo is underrated by many fans, however, already noted it depends on where the bar is set. I don't believe fighters like Rocky Fielding and Alfonso Gomez are crap, scrubbs, bums, I respect them. The very fact fighters like Canelo can wipe the floor with them is because he's LEVELS above - elite!!!
Floyd?
Cotto?
Mosley?
Golovkin?
Jacobs?
Lara?
Trout?
Khan?
Vazquez?
Lopez?
Smith?
Angulo?
Kirkland?
Chavez Jr?
Cintron?
Rhodes?
N'Dou?
Baldomir?
Yeah, yeah, there's excuses for all his wins. They were past their best, robbed, "bums," catchweight, blah, blah, blah. Smoke and mirrors. If any fighter in the world went 9 wins / 9 losses with that opposition I'd give them big praise let alone 17 wins/1 loss/1 draw.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
I don’t doubt that GGG is tough. There are fighters who look more impressive against lesser fighter than others. Especially when you have big power. You look dominant beating decent opponents. You look unbeatable. Then you step up and realize that once somebody can take your punch, you aren’t nearly as good as you looked. Fighters can adjust to you and beat you.
Again, I thought that GGG beat Canelo twice, but I feel that Canelo proved that GGG isn’t is as good as advertised. If GGG were the #1 p4p guy like a lot of people thought, he should have more clearly best Canelo who I believe is overrated. Especially being so great, he should have adjusted and beat him easier in the second fight. But it was the opposite.
This is where it starts.
Claiming that GGG must have been overrated because he never clearly beat someone else you all think is overrated. Yet you all think he did in the first fight, like most fans (myself included) but the judges refused to admit that. Not knocking out Canelo now makes GGG overrated.
Ridiculous logic.
It stems from you guys refusal to rate Canelo realistically . Its not just you either, it is common across all boxing forums where he is underrated to the point that now you are all piling on, and dissing not only Golovkin, but the whole sport and other boxers with this daft "whoring himself out" "Canelo is his pimp" bullshit.
For all his faults Canelo is no Wilder. He has a solid CV and there is absolutely no shame in GGG choosing to rematch a guy, who many people, other than the judges, think he has beaten twice, for a huge payday.
Both GGG /Canelo fights proved that Canelo was indeed underrated to have made the contests so competitive. To not admit that is in fact, yet another way to bash GGG.
The guy can't win. He has fought Jacobs, Canelo, and now Derevyanchenko and not knocking them out or winning clearly on points has made him drop a level in your eyes. That is fine but is also evidence of you underrating Canelo and GGG, when a huge list of impressive stoppages by both are now repackaged as those opponents all being bums or overrated themselves. It's just not realistic and doesn't show any respect for the careers of all those fighters you are reducing to nobodies.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
I don’t doubt that GGG is tough. There are fighters who look more impressive against lesser fighter than others. Especially when you have big power. You look dominant beating decent opponents. You look unbeatable. Then you step up and realize that once somebody can take your punch, you aren’t nearly as good as you looked. Fighters can adjust to you and beat you.
Again, I thought that GGG beat Canelo twice, but I feel that Canelo proved that GGG isn’t is as good as advertised. If GGG were the #1 p4p guy like a lot of people thought, he should have more clearly best Canelo who I believe is overrated. Especially being so great, he should have adjusted and beat him easier in the second fight. But it was the opposite.
This is where it starts.
Claiming that GGG must have been overrated because he never clearly beat someone else you all think is overrated. Yet you all think he did in the first fight, like most fans (myself included) but the judges refused to admit that. Not knocking out Canelo now makes GGG overrated.
Ridiculous logic.
It stems from you guys refusal to rate Canelo realistically . Its not just you either, it is common across all boxing forums where he is underrated to the point that now you are all piling on, and dissing not only Golovkin, but the whole sport and other boxers with this daft "whoring himself out" "Canelo is his pimp" bullshit.
For all his faults Canelo is no Wilder. He has a solid CV and there is absolutely no shame in GGG choosing to rematch a guy, who many people, other than the judges, think he has beaten twice, for a huge payday.
Both GGG /Canelo fights proved that Canelo was indeed underrated to have made the contests so competitive. To not admit that is in fact, yet another way to bash GGG.
The guy can't win. He has fought Jacobs, Canelo, and now Derevyanchenko and not knocking them out or winning clearly on points has made him drop a level in your eyes. That is fine but is also evidence of you underrating Canelo and GGG, when a huge list of impressive stoppages by both are now repackaged as those opponents all being bums or overrated themselves. It's just not realistic and doesn't show any respect for the careers of all those fighters you are reducing to nobodies.
I’m thinking you didn’t understand my original point. I said that GGG was a very good fighter. The point I’ve been making is that there are levels to this. Fenster tried to compare Canelo to people like De la Hoya and Bhop. Even comparing GGG to them is far fetched. Both are la Hoya and Bhop have clearly beaten some great fighters and made them look like amateurs.
The best fighters that GGG has faced were Canelo, Jacobs, and Derevyanchenko. Jacobs and Derevyanchenko both had very good cases to have won the fights. He beat Canelo fairly clearly the first time (about as clearly as I thought Derevyanchenko beat GGG) and beat him in a close fight the next time IMO at least. He has some other good opponents on his hit list, but as I said before, some styles just look better against weaker opposition than others.
So GGG is a great fighter, but he proved to me that any time he stepped up, he couldn’t fully deliver. He is good enough to beat top fighters, but not good enough to prove that he is a level above them. So that’s my point. There are levels to this. GGG I thought before was on a higher tier, but I realized that at this point of his career, he has never proven to be able to get to that next level.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
I don’t doubt that GGG is tough. There are fighters who look more impressive against lesser fighter than others. Especially when you have big power. You look dominant beating decent opponents. You look unbeatable. Then you step up and realize that once somebody can take your punch, you aren’t nearly as good as you looked. Fighters can adjust to you and beat you.
Again, I thought that GGG beat Canelo twice, but I feel that Canelo proved that GGG isn’t is as good as advertised. If GGG were the #1 p4p guy like a lot of people thought, he should have more clearly best Canelo who I believe is overrated. Especially being so great, he should have adjusted and beat him easier in the second fight. But it was the opposite.
This is where it starts.
Claiming that GGG must have been overrated because he never clearly beat someone else you all think is overrated. Yet you all think he did in the first fight, like most fans (myself included) but the judges refused to admit that. Not knocking out Canelo now makes GGG overrated.
Ridiculous logic.
It stems from you guys refusal to rate Canelo realistically . Its not just you either, it is common across all boxing forums where he is underrated to the point that now you are all piling on, and dissing not only Golovkin, but the whole sport and other boxers with this daft "whoring himself out" "Canelo is his pimp" bullshit.
For all his faults Canelo is no Wilder. He has a solid CV and there is absolutely no shame in GGG choosing to rematch a guy, who many people, other than the judges, think he has beaten twice, for a huge payday.
Both GGG /Canelo fights proved that Canelo was indeed underrated to have made the contests so competitive. To not admit that is in fact, yet another way to bash GGG.
The guy can't win. He has fought Jacobs, Canelo, and now Derevyanchenko and not knocking them out or winning clearly on points has made him drop a level in your eyes. That is fine but is also evidence of you underrating Canelo and GGG, when a huge list of impressive stoppages by both are now repackaged as those opponents all being bums or overrated themselves. It's just not realistic and doesn't show any respect for the careers of all those fighters you are reducing to nobodies.
Golovkin isn't overrated. Golovkin changed his whole career over Canelo. Big difference. Golovkin clearly got shafted in his first fight with Canelo. In their second fight, GGG used a stupid tactic in trying to outbox Canelo, instead of pressing forward and pressuring him. He got shafted in that one also. Since then, he's been fixated on Canelo and pretty much ignored everyone else, drawing the well-deserved criticism of the fans.
Canelo has two things going for him. A good beard... plus Vegas judges and a whole boxing org in his pocket. Other than that he's overrated.
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Re: Not GGG bashing but...
Triple G is at the end of his career and not the champion he was when he was knocking out world class fighters a couple of years ago. So he has even greater reason to call out Canelo, now that he has a title, and get another pay day but I hope he does challenge and beat the young guns who have belts to prove his quality.
How can GGG beat Canelo when he knows he will not get a decision? All out attack? I do not think he has the stamina now at his age and Canelo has a good chin. Comprehensively outboxing Canelo? Same thing, I do not think GGG has it in him. The only guarantee is that he will be paid very well which is a nice consolation.