Rickson Gracie in retrospect

**VictorCharlie** · 03-07-2007 01:44 AM

Rickson Gracie is often called the greatest MMA fighter ever. He allegedly has over 300 wins with no losses. As far as recognized MMA fights he is 11-0 winninng two vale tudo's along with a number of Pride and other orginizations fights. My question is this if Rickson is the great flag bearer for the Gracie clan why didn't he fight in Pancrase with the rest his elite peers? The top MMA fighters at the time were competing in Pancrase not Japan's or Brazil's vale tudos. Rickson claim of greatness would have been helped with victories over Bas Ruten/Frank&Ken Shamrock etc. Furthermore why was Royce not Rickson chosen to dominate the first several UFC's? This is just really me thinking out loud but maybe one of yall out there is a little more well read on the Gracie clan.

**Heavy D** · 03-07-2007 07:29 AM

The reason Rickson never competed against Bas and co. is because 299-1 just isn't as good as 300-0. Basically, a lot of people accuse him of either padding or straight up making up that record. Somehow, nobody really knows for sure.

As far as why Royce was chosen to dominate the UFC, I remember hearing that he was chosen BECAUSE he looked like a scrawny nerd. Rickson is actually a pretty big guy. Royce, not so much. They wanted to prove just how good their Jiu Jitsu was by having a guy that should get KILLED against some of the monsters in the cage, and showing how easily he defeats them.

**VictorCharlie** · 03-07-2007 08:05 PM

Anybody else feel the Gracie name is over stated in MMA. I mean I think they can be credited with helping to bring MMA into mainstream as well as revolutionizing the way NHB fighting is done by showing how dominant BJJ can be. Royce/Rickson etc are phenomenal submission fighters and two of the best on the ground ever but in terms of the well rounded elite fighters of today they pale in comparison. The Gracies have failed to create a legit top tier MMA fighter much less a champion in quite some time. This might very well be b/c they are all making tons of cash on their schools and seminars needless to say for a name that carries so much weight in the MMA world they have done very little since the early UFC days.

**Von Milash** · 03-07-2007 08:56 PM

Van,

I couldn't agree more. I don't know the Gracie history in detail because...well, I didn't have cable back then, lol, but I think the Gracies (ie, Royce) was dominating when the game was in its infancy. ie, he was a big fish in a small pond. If if we took the Royce from back then, transported him forward in time to today, there's NO WAY IN HELL he could take on the guys of today, ESPECIALLY the heavyweights.

as to part two, I'd guess that you don't throw your star to the slaughter... ie, we'll keep his perfect record in tack. It was the same as Dana saying how stupid pride was to throw Wandy at DH when there was everything for Wandy to lose. ie, they were perhaps protecting him from failure.

**ukgaz** · 03-07-2007 09:15 PM

Rorian Gracie had intended for Rickson to be the Gracie representive in the first UFC. After Rorian created the Gracies in Action series with the help of Art Davie they begun work on a new project that would eventually become the UFC's first show. Rickson was Rorian first choice for obvious reasons - he was younger than Rorian by 8 years, he had the more marketable/muscular look and was considered the champion of the family due to fights against zulu and the Hugo Duarte beach fight. Just before the first show Rickson left the Gracie Academy in Torrence and went his own way after Rorian found that he had been teaching students on the side and was asked to leave. With a rift developing in the family Rorian turned to Royce and the rest is history....

**Brockton Bomber** · 03-07-2007 09:22 PM

Actually Rickson could crack a lil. And Royce Gracie in his prime could definitely be UFC or Pride WW champ even today. Probably even compete with the heavies. Prime Royce had amazing resistance to strikes, and he closed distance like a friggin cobra. The only reason he lost to Saku and Hughes is because he was shot. The 400-1 claimed record for Rickson is not and MMA record, but his combined record in jiu jitsu, sambo, judo, and MMA competition. Helio, his father, said as much when Rickson was 9-0 MMA. With minimal training in strikes, prime Rickson would still smoke any HW in pride or UFC today, maybe even without. Rickson fought the best, although the sport was in its infancy.

The story about picking Royce for UFC because he was scrawny was also true.

As far as producing future champs is concerned, there's a couple of Gracie kids that are 16 and 19 I believe, and JJ champs. These kids have been training in strikes for years, and apparently they're bigger than the last generation. When these kids are old enough, somebody's getting owned.

The Gracies are the first family of MMA.

**ukgaz** · 03-07-2007 09:35 PM

Bear in mind that when Rickson faced takada at Pride 1 he was already 39 years of age. By the time Saku challenged him he was in his 40's. I'm sure if he was 10 years younger and in his prime he would have met that challenge. Whether he won or not we will never know. This new sport began to grow but his era had already come and gone.

For a full detailed account of the early years and what and why things happened as they did I would recommend Clyde Gentry's No Holds Barred book. Brilliant book

**VictorCharlie** · 03-07-2007 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Brockton Bomber

Actually Rickson could crack a lil. And Royce Gracie in his prime could definitely be UFC or Pride WW champ even today. Probably even compete with the heavies. Prime Royce had amazing resistance to strikes, and he closed distance like a friggin cobra. The only reason he lost to Saku and Hughes is because he was shot. The 400-1 claimed record for Rickson is not and MMA record, but his combined record in jiu jitsu, sambo, judo, and MMA competition. Helio, his father, said as much when Rickson was 9-0 MMA. With minimal training in strikes, prime Rickson would still smoke any HW in pride or UFC today, maybe even without. Rickson fought the best, although the sport was in its infancy.

The story about picking Royce for UFC because he was scrawny was also true.

As far as producing future champs is concerned, there's a couple of Gracie kids that are 16 and 19 I believe, and JJ champs. These kids have been training in strikes for years, and apparently they're bigger than the last generation. When these kids are old enough, somebody's getting owned.

The Gracies are the first family of MMA.

I gotta disagree on a prime Royce being able to beat the best of the world WW's right now. I give Royce a huge amount of respect for beating three bigger fighters a night multipile times, but I feel that early UFC's rules definately had some things that favored his game. You take out the Gi, add scoring, add the refs ability to stand up stalled out fighters and rounds w/a time limit I think Royce would have found it a little more dificult. All that combined with not only better skilled and well rounded fighters but all together much better athletes I just don't see Royce being the hugely dominating force that he was. I would be hard pressed to pick a prime Royce against GSP, Hughes or BJ Penn.