Ratings discussions, ideas, concerns etc

[Galaxy]

As Spicoli suggested I think we should use this thread for discussions on any ideas or concerns that may come up & keep the rating thread just for the ratings...

Here's one to start us off:

I think that if a ranked fighter fights at another weight they should not automatically be ranked in the pool there. If they beat someone already in the pool then it should happen or if it is a credible opponent, because the pools are going to start overflowing. e.g. Mario Santiago's last fight was at 130 but not against a quality opponent & I feel he is not ready to move up yet anyway

[JazMerkin]

I personally feel that guys doing the bare minimum to stay there, like Judah, should not stay ranked over guys who've beaten a better quality of opponent.

I personally feel that if Mayweather beats Marquez at the least he should be ranked ahead of Judah & maybe the winner of Rodriguez/Hlatshwayo.

I also feel him & Pacquiao being higher is more likely to bring us a champ as they're the only 2 people wanna fight.

Maybe we introduce the Pound For Pound list in somewhere, where beating a guy voted in the Top 10 outside of his weightclass is worth a little extra or something.

Another thing, is maybe a guy who hasn't registered a win in 12months+ can be overtaken by the fighter directly below him. 2 years without win & being dropped is fair, but if its one of those guys who never bothers to fight than it will be difficult bringing in new blood.

Good idea for a thread Galaxy

[Galaxy]

I personally feel that guys doing the bare minimum to stay there, like Judah, should not stay ranked over guys who've beaten a better quality of opponent.

I personally feel that if Mayweather beats Marquez at the least he should be ranked ahead of Judah & maybe the winner of Rodriguez/Hlatshwayo.

I also feel him & Pacquiao being higher is more likely to bring us a champ as they're the only 2 people wanna fight.

Maybe we introduce the Pound For Pound list in somewhere, where beating a guy voted in the Top 10 outside of his weightclass is worth a little extra or something.

Another thing, is maybe a guy who hasn't registered a win in 12months+ can be overtaken by the fighter directly below him. 2 years without win & being dropped is fair, but if its one of those guys who never bothers to fight than it will be difficult bringing in new blood.

Good idea for a thread Galaxy

I see what your saying & I kinda agree but as I said on another thread it should be based on what they have done at that weight. Mayweather has been out for nearly 2 years & Marquez has never fought there before so there achievements at that weight are arguably less.

With killers new rule where we could vote fighters down a spot we can combat guys taking the easy road by demoting them a spot.

I sort of like your idea of beating a p4p fighter being worth more but it could get a little sketchy. We recently had Agbeko defeat Darchinyan, does that then mean Agbeko should advance further at 118 by beating a man who had never fought at that weight before? Even though he was a p4p ranked fighter?

Maybe if you beat a p4p guy you advance 2 spots, e.g. Mayweather defeats Marquez so he would enter at 9th.

I'm not to fussed about those 2 being higher because I feel for a champ to be crowed at 147 they have to go through Mosley!

As to your second point I think that's what killer is aiming for by being able to demote fighters once per month, if that fighter is ranked 10th we could vote to drop him to the pool? Freeing up a vacancy for new blood...

[JazMerkin]

I personally feel that guys doing the bare minimum to stay there, like Judah, should not stay ranked over guys who've beaten a better quality of opponent.

I personally feel that if Mayweather beats Marquez at the least he should be ranked ahead of Judah & maybe the winner of Rodriguez/Hlatshwayo.

I also feel him & Pacquiao being higher is more likely to bring us a champ as they're the only 2 people wanna fight.

Maybe we introduce the Pound For Pound list in somewhere, where beating a guy voted in the Top 10 outside of his weightclass is worth a little extra or something.

Another thing, is maybe a guy who hasn't registered a win in 12months+ can be overtaken by the fighter directly below him. 2 years without win & being dropped is fair, but if its one of those guys who never bothers to fight than it will be difficult bringing in new blood.

Good idea for a thread Galaxy

I see what your saying & I kinda agree but as I said on another thread it should be based on what they have done at that weight. Mayweather has been out for nearly 2 years & Marquez has never fought there before so there achievements at that weight are arguably less.

With killers new rule where we could vote fighters down a spot we can combat guys taking the easy road by demoting them a spot.

I sort of like your idea of beating a p4p fighter being worth more but it could get a little sketchy. We recently had Agbeko defeat Darchinyan, does that then mean Agbeko should advance further at 118 by beating a man who had never fought at that weight before? Even though he was a p4p ranked fighter?

Maybe if you beat a p4p guy you advance 2 spots, e.g. Mayweather defeats Marquez so he would enter at 9th.

I'm not to fussed about those 2 being higher because I feel for a champ to be crowed at 147 they have to go through Mosley!

As to your second point I think that's what killer is aiming for by being able to demote fighters once per month, if that fighter is ranked 10th we could vote to drop him to the pool? Freeing up a vacancy for new blood...

How about this, fighters in the Pound For Pound list ranked from #1-5 are worth a maximum 2 place jump on a vote, whilst 6-10 are a max 1 place jump.

So Agbeko beating Darchinyan means we create a vote where we have the option of keeping him where he is or taking 3rd from Yonnhy Perez?

Should Mayweather beat Marquez, rather than just take the vacant 10th spot, he could come in at 8th, hence a jump of 2 places.

I agree anyone has to go through Mosley, but particularly that division, we have our best chance of crowning a champ if PBF & Pac are higher as only they & Berto are fighters who Mosley seems interested in fighting.

[Spicoli]

Have to throw in my 2 cents and by no means am I trying to be a downer and disrespect the hard work and dedication you guys have put in but I'm not big on meshing the p4p and our official rankings together.

p4p can be veeeery subjective and while it credits some of the more high profile fighters it lacks in solidity....tends to bend in the wind I believe.Ive always thought it (all p4p lists) a bit askew and defined by ones preferences and their really is no solid definition.I'm still scratching my head at guys like Mayorga jumping to the Rings p4p ratings.He may have been worthy as top of division by by NO means was he one of 'The best fighters in the world'.Just something that has stuck with me.The ranking should be solid,just don't want to see it turn into a numbers game and get all convoluted.

Good thread Galaxy.One thing I was aiming for was a way to consolidate all of these polls and threads.Seems we may get lost in 'paperwork'.Limit the number of poll threads as to keep them tight knit with centered focus.At the rate we are going I cannot help but think that some members will get lost in wash of pages and we may not see resolved voting.May just focus on what directly interest us and end up having many unresolved issues,polls,votes,etc.Again....the work and effort you guys have done is to be commended and is much appreciated,maybe I just need the AM coffee

[JazMerkin]

Have to throw in my 2 cents and by no means am I trying to be a downer and disrespect the hard work and dedication you guys have put in but I'm not big on meshing the p4p and our official rankings together.

p4p can be veeeery subjective and while it credits some of the more high profile fighters it lacks in solidity....tends to bend in the wind I believe.Ive always thought it (all p4p lists) a bit askew and defined by ones preferences and their really is no solid definition.I'm still scratching my head at guys like Mayorga jumping to the Rings p4p ratings.He may have been worthy as top of division by by NO means was he one of 'The best fighters in the world'.Just something that has stuck with me.The ranking should be solid,just don't want to see it turn into a numbers game and get all convoluted.

Good thread Galaxy.One thing I was aiming for was a way to consolidate all of these polls and threads.Seems we may get lost in 'paperwork'.Limit the number of poll threads as to keep them tight knit with centered focus.At the rate we are going I cannot help but think that some members will get lost in wash of pages and we may not see resolved voting.May just focus on what directly interest us and end up having many unresolved issues,polls,votes,etc.Again....the work and effort you guys have done is to be commended and is much appreciated,maybe I just need the AM coffee

That's why I'm suggesting only using it as a voting option. So let's use it the Darchinyan/Agbeko fight as an example. We put up a poll with options, should Agbeko stay where he is or should he jump one spot taking Perez' spot in 3rd. I can definitely understand your concerns, as my main worry with the P4P list is how at times it seems like a popularity contest, with guys like Pavlik & Hatton particularly doing far better than their work suggests. So what I'm suggesting is using it as a voting method. Most of us here are pretty objective & knowledgeable about the sport & different divisions, so I don't think it would end up devaluing it. So I'm not suggesting that the P4P list means automatic jumps, just that it allows the committee to vote on it slightly differently if you get my drift.

[Galaxy]

As I said in an earlier post, mixing the p4p with our ratings could get sketchy. Spicoli has put through some good points, & Jaz yourself said it seems like a popularity contest. Whose p4p are we going to use? The Ring? Ours? Joe Blogs?

My boy Calderon ain't even in The Rings top 10.

Maybe we put it to a vote to see what members think of the idea, but at this point I'd have to vote against it.


I also see what Spicoli is saying about having to many threads, I have tried to just keep the threads to that weeks results so as not to get to far ahead of ourselves.

We could try putting all the votes for the week in one thread with multiple choices, with members just posting in the thread for any additions for the mods to add so they can vote on them too, but you can only have so many options on the polls. Maybe a couple of threads for the week with multiple selections?

I'm not very good at this computer stuff so I'm not really sure what we can & cannot do, if we could have a thread a week with multiple polls it would be perfect...

[JazMerkin]

As I said in an earlier post, mixing the p4p with our ratings could get sketchy. Spicoli has put through some good points, & Jaz yourself said it seems like a popularity contest. Whose p4p are we going to use? The Ring? Ours? Joe Blogs?

My boy Calderon ain't even in The Rings top 10.

Maybe we put it to a vote to see what members think of the idea, but at this point I'd have to vote against it.


I also see what Spicoli is saying about having to many threads, I have tried to just keep the threads to that weeks results so as not to get to far ahead of ourselves.

We could try putting all the votes for the week in one thread with multiple choices, with members just posting in the thread for any additions for the mods to add so they can vote on them too, but you can only have so many options on the polls. Maybe a couple of threads for the week with multiple selections?

I'm not very good at this computer stuff so I'm not really sure what we can & cannot do, if we could have a thread a week with multiple polls it would be perfect...

I propose using our own Pound For Pound rankings, which I think are in all honesty better than the Ring's at the moment. I'm also not saying that it definitely mean someone jumps 1-2 places, only that it gives another option after a fight. For example, it offers us Agbeko going up to 3rd, which I would personally vote against. But that's my point, it gives us the options to vote on an issue a bit more.

[Galaxy]

As I said in an earlier post, mixing the p4p with our ratings could get sketchy. Spicoli has put through some good points, & Jaz yourself said it seems like a popularity contest. Whose p4p are we going to use? The Ring? Ours? Joe Blogs?

My boy Calderon ain't even in The Rings top 10.

Maybe we put it to a vote to see what members think of the idea, but at this point I'd have to vote against it.


I also see what Spicoli is saying about having to many threads, I have tried to just keep the threads to that weeks results so as not to get to far ahead of ourselves.

We could try putting all the votes for the week in one thread with multiple choices, with members just posting in the thread for any additions for the mods to add so they can vote on them too, but you can only have so many options on the polls. Maybe a couple of threads for the week with multiple selections?

I'm not very good at this computer stuff so I'm not really sure what we can & cannot do, if we could have a thread a week with multiple polls it would be perfect...

I propose using our own Pound For Pound rankings, which I think are in all honesty better than the Ring's at the moment. I'm also not saying that it definitely mean someone jumps 1-2 places, only that it gives another option after a fight. For example, it offers us Agbeko going up to 3rd, which I would personally vote against. But that's my point, it gives us the options to vote on an issue a bit more.

Well put up a poll Ace & see what the members think, with our p4p though you don't know how accurate it is either as there could be users with multiple accounts or as you said voting on popularity. I remember seeing VD having Pacquiao way down the 1st time around (5th I think).

I'm just saying there's to much room for abuse. I do sorta like the idea as I agree beating an elite guy should be worth more & it maybe a good idea to have the option (members can over rule it with a vote if they disagree) but p4p is purely mythical & our divisional ratings should be based on whats done at that weight against fighters who have achievements at that weight. Floyd was criticized for fighting the smaller Hatton (who was p4p by The Ring entering), & now again for fighting Marquez

[Spicoli]

Have to throw in my 2 cents and by no means am I trying to be a downer and disrespect the hard work and dedication you guys have put in but I'm not big on meshing the p4p and our official rankings together.

p4p can be veeeery subjective and while it credits some of the more high profile fighters it lacks in solidity....tends to bend in the wind I believe.Ive always thought it (all p4p lists) a bit askew and defined by ones preferences and their really is no solid definition.I'm still scratching my head at guys like Mayorga jumping to the Rings p4p ratings.He may have been worthy as top of division by by NO means was he one of 'The best fighters in the world'.Just something that has stuck with me.The ranking should be solid,just don't want to see it turn into a numbers game and get all convoluted.

Good thread Galaxy.One thing I was aiming for was a way to consolidate all of these polls and threads.Seems we may get lost in 'paperwork'.Limit the number of poll threads as to keep them tight knit with centered focus.At the rate we are going I cannot help but think that some members will get lost in wash of pages and we may not see resolved voting.May just focus on what directly interest us and end up having many unresolved issues,polls,votes,etc.Again....the work and effort you guys have done is to be commended and is much appreciated,maybe I just need the AM coffee

That's why I'm suggesting only using it as a voting option. So let's use it the Darchinyan/Agbeko fight as an example. We put up a poll with options, should Agbeko stay where he is or should he jump one spot taking Perez' spot in 3rd. I can definitely understand your concerns, as my main worry with the P4P list is how at times it seems like a popularity contest, with guys like Pavlik & Hatton particularly doing far better than their work suggests. So what I'm suggesting is using it as a voting method. Most of us here are pretty objective & knowledgeable about the sport & different divisions, so I don't think it would end up devaluing it. So I'm not suggesting that the P4P list means automatic jumps, just that it allows the committee to vote on it slightly differently if you get my drift.

I hear you bud.I can def see your reasoning Jaz.I just think we could get into manufacturing positions.It may all boil down to a consensus that Agbeko deserves to be higher than Perez,Not so much on beating a p4p guy...but a better fighter in Vic than Mabuza ?Maybe we collectively did not look far enough down the road??I'm not sure who the manager of 118 is but would be interested in their opinion.Love the p4p list,alot of focus and work put into it but I believe we will get bogged down.It should stand alone for its quality.


just a thought for all....why not make a thread for each division and all related polls,votes are entered there in and references to key developments over time are referenced on the most current page for locating purposes?Gives the division a center point instead of many,many names bouncing around?Make us managers earn our keep

[JazMerkin]

I can definitely see the concerns you guys have, my main concern is that the new rule killer has brought in won't lead to guys facing weak opposition being demoted, as nearly half of our managers aren't pro-active enough to vote, let alone actually do anything in their division. It's generally us three, CFH, VD, Daxx & killer who actually vote on issues. I think part of the problem we have is that a lot of the people who originally voted on divisions have now gone & IMO there's a danger that younger, exciting fighters who've come on don't really get their due. Boxing moves fairly fast, particularly at the lower end of each of our rankings & I think opposition plays a big part in deciding who goes where. For example, Ngoudjo has been sitting in our rankings ahead of guys beating better opposition like Ortiz or Maidana.

I'm just trying to find another method that might help result with us having the best 10 fighters in each division in that division, as well as hopefully bringing us a champion.

[Galaxy]

Remember Jaz, the guys in our rankings have either earned their rankings or been voted in so dropping them to much could be a little unfair. I agree that some of the managers aren't as active as others but its not to stop us from keeping an eye on all our ratings as a whole. (Like you did with Torres' situation.)

I think fighters winning their rankings is fair, & although there maybe lots of young talent around they need to beat someone ranked or be voted in to ascertain a ranking. You can say what you want about Ngoudjo but his opposition has been pretty good & everyone but the loss to Urango was competitive


With it approved to fill vacancies by voting coming in at 4 votes to 1, we might want to have a think about who we want to vote on for filling these spots. Next week is pretty quiet with only 2 ranked fighters fighting so we might want to post some polls on these vacancies:


#10 at Heavy is vacant

#10 at Jr. Middle is vacant

#10 at Jr. Welter is vacant but we have voted that the Mayweather/ Marquez winner fills that spot

#10 at Jr. Feather is vacant

#10 at Jr. Bantam is vacant & with Kirilov coming out at the beginning of August there’ll be 2 spots available

#9 & #10 at Jr. Fly are vacant

#10 at Straw is vacant


I like Spicoli's idea for a separate thread for each division but that's going to be 17 divisions, plus one for the p4p! Maybe we could break it into groups like killer has (3 or so to a group) If we had a main thread with links to each division would be great.

I think the best way to do the polls might be a couple grouped together with multiple choice.

e.g

TITLE: Prescott, M. Vasquez, I. Vasquez.

OPTIONS:

Prescott out of pool.
Prescott remains in pool.
M. Vasquez for #10.
M. Vasquez into pool.
I. Vasquez removed from 122 & into pool at 126.
I. Vasquez remain ranked at 122 & into pool at 126.
I. Vasquez into the pool at 122 & 126.

I think we can have up to 10 options per poll so maybe 3 polls is all we'll need for the weekly votes.

etc, sorry for the long post but had a bit to say...

[JazMerkin]

Breaking down threads by division don't seem possible possible, I've tried. I can understand your points, but I think there's also the problem that our rankings don't take account of 'unretiring' boxers. Let's say Calzaghe came back today, he fulfills all the criteria to be ranked, has fought in the past 12 months & in the past 18 beat our #1 & #10. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I want our rankings to be realistic of where the best guys in the division are & also create more champions. Maybe a suggestion being that in the instance that Mosley fought Mayweather after the JMM fight, that that becomes a fight to get a champ, as the 1-5 rule doesn't take into account the respective quality of divisions or of a fighter coming up.

Maybe a way to deal with it is that if a fighter hasn't beaten a ranked or pool opponent in 2 years, they can drop below fighters who've beaten better opposition in that time on a committee vote. I feel Zab Judah & Clinton Woods are both examples of this. I just think quality of opposition needs to be factored in, at least at the lower end of the rankings where we have guys doing the bare minimum to hold position.

[killersheep]

I can appreciate what Jaz is saying about p4p fighters, but I don't think that it is something we can quantitatively implement. The p4p fighters are sure to be at or near the top of their weight classes anyway and beating them takes over their spot.

I also think that have a thread for each weight class would be very difficult to maintain.

The issues that have come up recently reflect the infancy of this system, but I think it's heading in the right direction. The reason I brought up the Manager's choice idea was because although our system does a good scatter shot of saying who's who, a little tweaking would give a more accurate representation of true rankings.

[Galaxy]

I think its easier to keep the divisions all together

I think killers rule of voting for a fighter to be dropped one spot is the best way of dealing with the issue, it just needs a few tweaks

As for un-retiring fighters, I think they should have to earn their way back into the rankings, they retired (no matter for how long) & have to fight their way back in

The more I think about it the more I'm against combining the p4p to our divisional ratings, I see where Jaz is coming from, but like killer said our ratings are still young & will begin to give a better reflection in time. I too want to crown champions but manipulating the system is not the way to do it. If Floyd were to beat Mosley next he'd become our #1, then if he fought Cotto or Berto it would probably for the championship. It may take time but I think sticking to our system is best