Very cool video regarding Israel's defensible borders and territory negotiations.

[Kev]

I think it's difficult to argue against any of this really. When you realise what a tiny country it is, and where in the world it is, it's no wonder they get paranoid sometimes.

Great graphics too.

[Andre]

Yeah agreed, they cant give up at this point in time, they would be consumed from all sides.

Be much better in the long run (if there was one); if they tried to help Palestinian people and earnt trust from within, so that the internal hatred is cut off from being taught. Treat them in their hospitals, help them rebuild etc and make life better for them and show the world a whole new way how to extend boarders. Rebuild the strip to look like a paradise on earth and then share it.

[Kev]

It's not just the Palestinians that hate Israel though it's the entire Arab world.

Actually prior to their 1948 War of Independence the Palestinians and Jews lived in peace side by side.

It wasn't the Palestinians and the Israeli's that declared war on each other, it was the other Arab nations. They declared war on Israel and then commanded the Palestinians to leave or else be fought as enemies along with Israel. They were promised their land back after the Arabs won this easy war.

Only it didn't work out for them quite like that, they had their asses kicked and then the Palestinians were homeless.

At the same time, and seemingly missed by most, the Arab world expelled 800,000 Arab Jews from Syria, Iran, Jordan etc and stole all of their homes, land and possession.s

These 800,000 homeless made their way to the fledging Israeli nation who welcomed them like brothers, took them in, gave them full citizenship, and amazingly didn't ask the rest of the world for a penny in aid to do so. They just absorbed the burden of them into their nation without complaint.

Meanwhile the Arabs did fuck all for the Palestinians but preferred to keep them in refugee camps as their propaganda tool against the Jews.

This is a great read here. http://97.74.65.51/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

[Gandalf]

That video seems very much to a propaganda piece too. Nobody is talking about a return to pre 1950 borders anyway. The way to broker a 2 state solution is according to the 1967 accords.

How many threads are you going to start on this topic anyway Bilbo? I think you have now overtaken me!

[Andre]

It's not just the Palestinians that hate Israel though it's the entire Arab world.

Actually prior to their 1948 War of Independence the Palestinians and Jews lived in peace side by side.

It wasn't the Palestinians and the Israeli's that declared war on each other, it was the other Arab nations. They declared war on Israel and then commanded the Palestinians to leave or else be fought as enemies along with Israel. They were promised their land back after the Arabs won this easy war.

Only it didn't work out for them quite like that, they had their asses kicked and then the Palestinians were homeless.

At the same time, and seemingly missed by most, the Arab world expelled 800,000 Arab Jews from Syria, Iran, Jordan etc and stole all of their homes, land and possession.s

These 800,000 homeless made their way to the fledging Israeli nation who welcomed them like brothers, took them in, gave them full citizenship, and amazingly didn't ask the rest of the world for a penny in aid to do so. They just absorbed the burden of them into their nation without complaint.

Meanwhile the Arabs did fuck all for the Palestinians but preferred to keep them in refugee camps as their propaganda tool against the Jews.

This is a great read here. http://97.74.65.51/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

Yeah they got more troubles than them,but it would be a start and it would stop anyone else gaining any moral high ground over them ,it would nip alot of there oppositions arguments right in the bud.

The Arabs are well hated, The Egyptians we have out here cant stand them.They overtook their home and they banned their ancient Egyptian language being spoken and banned their traditional practices.

[Kev]

That video seems very much to a propaganda piece too. Nobody is talking about a return to pre 1950 borders anyway. The way to broker a 2 state solution is according to the 1967 accords.

How many threads are you going to start on this topic anyway Bilbo? I think you have now overtaken me!

Until you agree with me Miles, until you agree........

[Kev]

That video seems very much to a propaganda piece too. Nobody is talking about a return to pre 1950 borders anyway. The way to broker a 2 state solution is according to the 1967 accords.

How many threads are you going to start on this topic anyway Bilbo? I think you have now overtaken me!

An open letter from the Jews to the World, including you Miles.

[CFH]

It's not just the Palestinians that hate Israel though it's the entire Arab world.

Actually prior to their 1948 War of Independence the Palestinians and Jews lived in peace side by side.

It wasn't the Palestinians and the Israeli's that declared war on each other, it was the other Arab nations. They declared war on Israel and then commanded the Palestinians to leave or else be fought as enemies along with Israel. They were promised their land back after the Arabs won this easy war.

Only it didn't work out for them quite like that, they had their asses kicked and then the Palestinians were homeless.

At the same time, and seemingly missed by most, the Arab world expelled 800,000 Arab Jews from Syria, Iran, Jordan etc and stole all of their homes, land and possession.s

These 800,000 homeless made their way to the fledging Israeli nation who welcomed them like brothers, took them in, gave them full citizenship, and amazingly didn't ask the rest of the world for a penny in aid to do so. They just absorbed the burden of them into their nation without complaint.

Meanwhile the Arabs did fuck all for the Palestinians but preferred to keep them in refugee camps as their propaganda tool against the Jews.

This is a great read here. http://97.74.65.51/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

I'm not trying to be a dick, but that is totally untrue. There were frequently clashes between the two groups from pretty much the beginning of the Mandate.

[Kev]

It's not just the Palestinians that hate Israel though it's the entire Arab world.

Actually prior to their 1948 War of Independence the Palestinians and Jews lived in peace side by side.

It wasn't the Palestinians and the Israeli's that declared war on each other, it was the other Arab nations. They declared war on Israel and then commanded the Palestinians to leave or else be fought as enemies along with Israel. They were promised their land back after the Arabs won this easy war.

Only it didn't work out for them quite like that, they had their asses kicked and then the Palestinians were homeless.

At the same time, and seemingly missed by most, the Arab world expelled 800,000 Arab Jews from Syria, Iran, Jordan etc and stole all of their homes, land and possession.s

These 800,000 homeless made their way to the fledging Israeli nation who welcomed them like brothers, took them in, gave them full citizenship, and amazingly didn't ask the rest of the world for a penny in aid to do so. They just absorbed the burden of them into their nation without complaint.

Meanwhile the Arabs did fuck all for the Palestinians but preferred to keep them in refugee camps as their propaganda tool against the Jews.

This is a great read here. http://97.74.65.51/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

I'm not trying to be a dick, but that is totally untrue. There were frequently clashes between the two groups from pretty much the beginning of the Mandate.

Nah you are right, I meant from the Israeli side and before the Balfour Declaration. Some jews have always remained in Israel and the Arab world down the last few thousand years.

But the Palestinians didn't invade Israel, it was the Arab nations, and those Arab nations told the Palestines to get out, until they had cleaned up. It wasn't the Israeli's who created the refugee problem it was the Arabs.

Also Israel bore the burden of the 800,000 Arab Jews who were kicked out of Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc and welcomed them to their own homeland. The Arabs took all of their property and belongings totalling billions of pounds in today's money, more than enough to sort the problem of their own Palestinian brothers but they didn't because they are just barbaric races.


But this is the thing I don't get. If you attack a nation and go to war and lose, and your land gets taken away, well that's just tough shit pretty much. You can't aggressively attack another nation without warning and then complain when they kick your ass and take control of some of your land to defend their own borders against future attacks.

[Kev]

Anyway, watch the video, it's good.

[Gandalf]

That video seems very much to a propaganda piece too. Nobody is talking about a return to pre 1950 borders anyway. The way to broker a 2 state solution is according to the 1967 accords.

How many threads are you going to start on this topic anyway Bilbo? I think you have now overtaken me!

An open letter from the Jews to the World, including you Miles.

All I got from that video was a self righteous rabbi trying to tell us how persecuted the Jews were and that they eventually decided to live in the Middle East, surrounded by Arabs as a way of trying to avoid all that. Okay, there was more, but it was too brief and all too one sided anyway. I don't buy into his one sided take on it all whatsover. As a historian I know not to take one point of view at face value and a simple video is never going to alter my thinking in any serious way. I've already said that Israel now has a right to exist. America commited mass genocide in wiping out up to 100, 000, 000 native indians. Do we now say America is an illegitimate state? If you go back far enough most states are illegitimate in that sense. But now it exists, progress needs to be made.

Recent goings on are not the actions of a blameless, hard done by state. They are the actions of an unhinged and heavily subsidised baby brother of the worlds major (and itself rather unhinged) superpower. Jew's have been repressed throughout history, but that doesn't relate to now. The people in control in Israel have never been bullied and have only known being the bully.

[Gandalf]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

[Kev]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

[Gandalf]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

Bilbo, it is trying having to respond to you in these topics because we seem to disagree on pretty much everything everything. When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out Palestinians? Just tally up the death ratios of Jews against Arabs and see where that gets you. Admittedly they haven't gone the US/Nazi way of entire ethnic cleansing, but they have gone the way of full on apartheid and occupation. I would prefer a pistol to the head than years of pointless struggle and oppression at the hands of imperialist bullies and that is just what the Israeli's are. The elite are a seriously nasty bunch of people. Why can't you get that through your head? Why has the world opposed Israel on so many fronts and yet nothing gets done because of the US veto? Are you telling me the entire world has it wrong on Israel? That they haven't commited acts of international terrorism? That they don't purposely oppress the people in Gaza?

You say the blockade has been going on for the past couple of years. Simply not true, it's been going on for several years. It's just that the Israeli's used the wipe out of Gaza as an excuse to go public on it. I cannot excuse the use of rockets, but likewise can you justify the building of illegal settlements, the destruction of farmland, the restricted access to water supplies and so on. Are these the actions of benevolent colonialists? Israel likes to control Palestine in part because it relies upon on the water supplies, of course they don't want to let go in such an arid part of the world.

You are twisting my words on the illegitimacy of the Israel state (after all most states are illegitimate when we go to their roots like you agree), but UN backing doesn't neccessarily mean the correct decision has been made. It just means that the power brokers have reached agreement. How many resolutions have been passed against Israel and rejected by a single veto? Does that make all of them illegitimate? Of course not. And I'm sure you are not naive enough to think so either.

[Kev]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

Bilbo, it is trying having to respond to you in these topics because we seem to disagree on pretty much everything everything. When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out Palestinians? Just tally up the death ratios of Jews against Arabs and see where that gets you. Admittedly they haven't gone the US/Nazi way of entire ethnic cleansing, but they have gone the way of full on apartheid and occupation. I would prefer a pistol to the head than years of pointless struggle and oppression at the hands of imperialist bullies and that is just what the Israeli's are. The elite are a seriously nasty bunch of people. Why can't you get that through your head? Why has the world opposed Israel on so many fronts and yet nothing gets done because of the US veto? Are you telling me the entire world has it wrong on Israel? That they haven't commited acts of international terrorism? That they don't purposely oppress the people in Gaza?

You say the blockade has been going on for the past couple of years. Simply not true, it's been going on for several years. It's just that the Israeli's used the wipe out of Gaza as an excuse to go public on it. I cannot excuse the use of rockets, but likewise can you justify the building of illegal settlements, the destruction of farmland, the restricted access to water supplies and so on. Are these the actions of benevolent colonialists? Israel likes to control Palestine in part because it relies upon on the water supplies, of course they don't want to let go in such an arid part of the world.

You are twisting my words on the illegitimacy of the Israel state (after all most states are illegitimate when we go to their roots like you agree), but UN backing doesn't neccessarily mean the correct decision has been made. It just means that the power brokers have reached agreement. How many resolutions have been passed against Israel and rejected by a single veto?Does that make all of them illegitimate? Of course not. And I'm sure you are not naive enough to think so either.

You don't need to respond, in fact I would love it if you didn't. Just let me have the final say and all will be well

You can do what you would have the Israeli's do and make the first conscession.