Midrange Left Hook (Question for Fran)

[HerbM]

Midrange Left Hook Video and article on MyBoxingCoach.Com :
The Left Hook at Mid-Range - The Text Book Punch! | MYBOXINGCOACH.COM

Nice video and good explanation.

Would you (Fran mainly, but others also) please discuss the following question(s):

1) The move (as demonstrated) STARTS with the push by the leading leg which translates into hip turn to generate the power.

Would this DELIVER more power on the target if the hand motion -- i.e., getting the glove up with the L-bend almost at the target -- STARTED first, so that the hip motion was generated right before and as the glove is contacting the target?

If so, what would be the disadvantage of this (same motion, just changing the initiation sequence to conserve the hip power until ready to deliver it) or the advantages of doing it in the order given?


2) Another (related) issue: I understand the explanation give for not trying to deliver too much power with the midrange hook and thereby transferring the weight onto the front foot.

Given this, where is the power coming from if the hip has already turned and the hand moves directly alongside (not towards) the target and finishes almost as soon as it moves through the target? I.E., if the hip turn has completed and the arm isn't doing the work, where is the work done?


3) On a different focus: In the "slipping" video, you state explicitly that the left or INSIDE SLIP is very similar to the right cross without the punch (same hip and leg movements to move the head over).

Is the (right or) OUTSIDE SLIP (almost) the same as the Midrange hook without the hook punch?

If not, would you please note any important differences?

Thanks so much both for the videos and for all your help here on the forum. I always learn a lot from your material.


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HerbM

[WayneFlint]

To address one of the points your interested in herb which is number one, with the left hook its the initial explosion starting from your foot that should start the movement of the pelvis (this is assuming that the left hook has been set up) bending the left knee and exploding from the left foot in sinc while your right foot is on the ball of the foot to allow a tiny pivot if necessary and to generally reframe from planting the heel which will stop the pelvis rotation as you get around to a point generally putting the brakes on the shot thnik of it like leaving up the handbrake in your car. the arm should be lifted into placement parallel to your pelvis simply lifting the elbow. and shortly after the initial explosion of the left foot is when it should leave from your side to sort of hitch a ride on the momentum just created by your legs. if you start the movement with your upperbody first i would say youll tend to throw a few arm punches now and then and might throw yourself out of sinc with the pelvis rotation, your upper body is mainly slow twitch when compared with your legs. if the legs are set up properly and in balance with good posture and placement throughout you have a solid base wound up ready to use your limbs and joints making sure non of them are going to stop you from getting a good pelvis rotation. (all hooks should be thrown like this the only difference with range occures from the elbow and what degree it needs to be bent at for a short hook or long range you simply dont bend the elbow as much, the only difference in hooks at different range should occure at the elbow in what degree it is bent at, the target is the next thing that changes which doesnt effect how you should throw the punch barring the elbow. close range your more than likely going to get the side of the head if your square on with your opponent, hopefuly the chin. whereas at long range the hook can be throw directly into the face/nose on one of the same targets you might have for a jab this is assuming the hook has been thrown as ive instructed above.)

Sorry for the mess of a post herb, i havent got time to finish it or tidy it up, hope this helps, allthough the credit goes to my trainer scrap im only saying what hes taught me. hope im not giving too much away scrap i just thought it might answer some questions on ''getting the hip into the shot'' i know you just dont have time to respond to these types of questions as it could easily turn into an essay to elaborate it properly lol.

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Hey Herb

As usual, very thought-provoking and considered questions, I wanted to have a good think before responding. Here We go!

Midrange Left Hook Video and article on MyBoxingCoach.Com :
The Left Hook at Mid-Range - The Text Book Punch! | MYBOXINGCOACH.COM

Nice video and good explanation.

Would you (Fran mainly, but others also) please discuss the following question(s):

1) The move (as demonstrated) STARTS with the push by the leading leg which translates into hip turn to generate the power.

Would this DELIVER more power on the target if the hand motion -- i.e., getting the glove up with the L-bend almost at the target -- STARTED first, so that the hip motion was generated right before and as the glove is contacting the target?

If so, what would be the disadvantage of this (same motion, just changing the initiation sequence to conserve the hip power until ready to deliver it) or the advantages of doing it in the order given?

It feels like this is a question of acceleration, albeit that the answer is not black and white as I do believe that you have made a very good point here. At mid-range, I think by leaving the hip rotation later in the move may result in the fist travelling at a consistent speed rather than accelerating, and I think that this consistent speed might be slower. But, and this is a big but, I believe that at short range your approach may very well work quite well. Given that by definition the range and therefore distance travelled is shorter, then the delayed hip rotation is likely to add power at the expense of speed (the impact of the loss of speed is negligible given the shot only travels 6 inches or so.) It's something I'm aware of when using the Maize Bag. I'll give this more thought, but great point Herb.

2) Another (related) issue: I understand the explanation give for not trying to deliver too much power with the midrange hook and thereby transferring the weight onto the front foot.

Given this, where is the power coming from if the hip has already turned and the hand moves directly alongside (not towards) the target and finishes almost as soon as it moves through the target? I.E., if the hip turn has completed and the arm isn't doing the work, where is the work done?

Don't forget, even without performing an inside slip, there's quite a bit of torque stored after the rotation. The shoulders are aligned toward the target and the hooked arm still has a few inches to travel. Getting this shot right is about speed and timing.

3) On a different focus: In the "slipping" video, you state explicitly that the left or INSIDE SLIP is very similar to the right cross without the punch (same hip and leg movements to move the head over).

Is the (right or) OUTSIDE SLIP (almost) the same as the Midrange hook without the hook punch?

In short, yes, but with a conscious, very slight, tilt of the upper body to the right. The right leg bends slightly more also. The inside slip is identical to a right cross, the outside slip is very similar to a hook, but with a little extra.

Hope this helps Herb, as always, thanks very much for you analysis. It really helps me a great deal.

Cheers

Fran

[HerbM]

Thanks for thinking this through with me Fran. I intend to work much of this on the bag, practicing both ways (I think that now I know something like 11 ways to "throw a hook" from reading, watching, and from my coach who will only accept ONE way <grin>).

There are three reason I thought of this:

1) Generally the "big muscles", especially the core have shorter movements or smaller ranges of motion, so if the body motion starts even with the hands the body motion tends to be "all used up", i.e., up against the stops (at the end of range of motion) before the hands get there.

2) Body/core motions tend to be more likely to commit weight and put one out of balance, especially as you mention if you miss, so saving them to the end and only committing just at or just before the strike means that you already KNOW you will hit.

3) My own hip, shoulder, and back range of motion sucks -- I have had tight ligaments and tendons my whole life, but with arthritis I am even more limited (notice that this is mostly not the painful type, just limiting in movement) so those big core motions are generally going to be even short for me before I "hit the stops".

So I have a general principle that I try to get my core into my punches "near the end" rather than "at the start".

The main disadvantages are that it requires really good timing (a lot of carefully correct practice) and it is easier to 'get lazy' and start leaving out the really powerful portion of the movement, unless I keep working the practice correctly and pay a lot of attention to getting it right constantly.

Also, by moving the leg and hip first, you set up a "wave like" or "whip like" action from bottom to top which proceed smoothly up the body to the shoulder and out through the arm finishing at the hand. This is a very natural way to release energy.

Doing it in the (partially) reversed order is not likely to be nearly as smooth.

I an not however certain that the hip later method would be slower, since I would ideally add the hip just as the arm reaches max speed and JUST BEFORE the strike so we are adding to the velocity of the arm (by turning) rather than having that hip be essentially FINISHED turning at impact (if it had started first it would have already 'used up' its rang of motion unless you overturn it and risk losing balance.)

I really like your videos and always learn a lot by watching and practicing them.

Thanks Fran.

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HerbM

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Herb

It's an absolute pleasure to be involved in these discussions with people like you and Wayne because of the degree of thought and analysis you guys put in. As a coach, it's always good to have my thinking challenged...we all need to continually assess our understanding of our technical approach, even after 30+ years!

Take it easy Herb

Fran

[HerbM]

Thanks Fran, I enjoy reading both your posts here and your newsletter.

BTW, I have tried both methods, turning hips first, and turning hips later, and they both seem to 'work' and feel comfortable, but I haven't yet made any clear distinction about which strikes more powerfully or which is safer etc.

Moving the leg-hip first definitely makes it easy to REMEMBER to get the hips into the hook, and helps alleviate "arm punching (alone)" so as a coach this might be preferable even if there is/were a (small?) advantage to turning near to contact.

Also, my coach watched me do these both (modifications to his hook instructions) without giving me any additional push-ups, so that was good. Generally, I have done pushups for doing a simpler hip rotation late in the hook.

Oh, another thing: Although Freddie Roach teaches the hook slightly differently than you (on the Title boxing video series) he definitely has the hip turn FIRST, and the shoulder arm motion following -- he sort of makes SPACE for the hand/arm by turning this way so that he gets room to throw (almost like cocking the punch) but without first dropping his hand and without actually loading up or cocking.

I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense -- it's like he moves his hip away from his hand, then there is more room to "swing". My coach hates this method --and i have done the push-ups to prove that.

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HerbM

[boxingbantz]

Herb and Fran, you two are a credit to this forum.

People could probably learn more on this forum than they would from a book. I've definitely learnt a heck off a lot from this forum and will be a lot of what I've learnt to the gym on Monday when I have my first 1-1 coaching session (obviously I'm gonna go with an open mind as I'm sure all coached have their own ways of teaching etc).

Keep up the good work.

[HerbM]

Thanks Koppas.

Fran is the real deal, a long time coach and boxer with many successes in both careers:

About | MYBOXINGCOACH.COM

While you are at his site, remember to book mark it and watch (all of) his videos there, and subscribe to his newsletter email articles. They have all been worth the time and effort.

As far me, I am just a newbie boxer (just over 8 months) and an old guy (58 last week) who will never get to fight in a real bout (can't pass the medical for Masters amateur apparently or I would do it.)

So consider everything you get from me to be unverified rumor until you prove it for yourself in actual practice, sparring, and combat.

The one big thing I have going is my experience in "modeling excellence" and the ability to break things down logically, plus an absolute refusal to believe even my own 'stuff' until it is proven under pressure against fully resisting opponents.

I really started boxing to continue my combat arts training CHEAPLY (the boxing gym was less expensive for MORE training than BJJ, Systema, etc) but then "got the bug" and ended up going to the gym almost everyday, while continuing to work out at Systema, BJJ, and knife defense separately.

Now, if I can just get Coach to let me do full sparring -- been bugging him for over six months, but he is very protective and has no idea that I have a head like a concrete block and a body like a water bag for absorbing blows.

This site has been an excellent source of answers (and questions*) from everyone, both directly, and also from video links like Fran's site and the ones posted by Scrap and others, as well as all the books posted by Chris Nagel.

Definitely read the books by Dempsey, Haislett, Frazier, InsideTheRing (RossBoxing archive), Champ Thomas, and others. I learned something -- a lot usually -- from every single one of those books.

*Sometimes I learn the most from other people's questions, but the answers that are offered by others to questions I never thought to ask, and from trying myself to work through and answer it logically and clearly which helped me clarify things that I had just read in the books, heard from my coach, knew from other martial arts, or picked up here on the forum.

Keep asking....I know I will.

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HerbM
Keep fighting -- God will tell you when you are dead.