Debate for the MMWC Heavy/Flyweight Titles.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Jt Rock (Champion) vs. DaxxKahn.

Post only Welcome from:
Bilbo, Julius Rain (El Gamo, ICb TBA)Judges. Hitman Donny (MMWC representative)

1)12 Posts each (as rounds.)
2)No assault on the other posters Character.
3)Points may be deducted after debate finishes. Judges; El Gamo, ICB and TBA
4)Winner will walk away with the MMWC HW and Flyweight Title.
5)Start time at the Champions (Bilbo's) discretion. (1pm east coast usa.)
5)All other communication by PM.
6)Subject will be revealed before debate begins
7) Judges must withold comment until after the debate.

Only one title can be held at a time so one must be vacated upon victory and receipt of the second.

[El Gamo]

LMFAO@the rules!! HW-Flyweight unification?!! 1belt at a time? This is as legit as the WBC/BA/BF.DE etc!!

[Kev]

Jt Rock (Champion) vs. DaxxKahn.

Post only Welcome from:
Bilbo, Julius Rain (El Gamo, ICb TBA)Judges. Hitman Donny (MMWC representative)

1)12 Posts each (as rounds.)
2)No assault on the other posters Character.
3)Points may be deducted after debate finishes. Judges; El Gamo, ICB and TBA
4)Winner will walk away with the MMWC HW and Flyweight Title.
5)Start time at the Champions (Bilbo's) discretion. (1pm east coast usa.)
5)All other communication by PM.
6)Subject will be revealed before debate begins
7) Judges must withold comment until after the debate.

Only one title can be held at a time so one must be vacated upon victory and receipt of the second.

Damn, witty putdowns and sarcastic below the belt jibes were the central pillars that I was going to build my arguments around

I don't know, take away sarcasm and personal insults from the hobbit's arsenal and he doesn't have a lot left.

You've basically banned my entire offensive arsenal.

[donnydarkoIRL]

LMFAO@the rules!! HW-Flyweight unification?!! 1belt at a time? This is as legit as the WBC/BA/BF.DE etc!!

I provide a service which meets a demand, il be damned if i can understand it sometimes but...

[brucelee]

I've warned EG already in another thread regarding Bilbo's possible tactics. LOL. I'll be watching this debate closely coz I'd like to fight Bilbo some time. Got to fight the best and the brightest.


I've promised myself to crush Bilbo in the future. hehehe. Watch your back Bilbo coz I will put you to sleep with a bat and I just can't imagine how I'd torture you.Mwahahaha.

[Kev]

Erm ok so the champ is here, but it's not looking good for Julius, where is he?

[Julius Rain]

im here now, lets get it on.

[Julius Rain]

The topic is, which current division heavyweight or flyweight is better right?

so should I go first?

[Julius Rain]

Jt Rock (Champion) vs. DaxxKahn.

Post only Welcome from:
Bilbo, Julius Rain (El Gamo, ICb TBA)Judges. Hitman Donny (MMWC representative)

1)12 Posts each (as rounds.)
2)No assault on the other posters Character.
3)Points may be deducted after debate finishes. Judges; El Gamo, ICB and TBA
4)Winner will walk away with the MMWC HW and Flyweight Title.
5)Start time at the Champions (Bilbo's) discretion. (1pm east coast usa.)
5)All other communication by PM.
6)Subject will be revealed before debate begins
7) Judges must withold comment until after the debate.

Only one title can be held at a time so one must be vacated upon victory and receipt of the second.

Damn, witty putdowns and sarcastic below the belt jibes were the central pillars that I was going to build my arguments around

I don't know, take away sarcasm and personal insults from the hobbit's arsenal and he doesn't have a lot left.

You've basically banned my entire offensive arsenal.

come on bilbo its the pro debate, since u say so then your pretty much screwd. I didn't need the advantage but yea ur chances just went down the drain

[Kev]

No worries, I'm going to be polite courteous and respectful throughout and prove I can win on pure debating skills alone.

To that end, I'll be ever the gentleman and say, ladies first, Julie feel free to start.

[Julius Rain]

Round 1:

Recently we just had the peter mccline fight although I won't pretend that we have great heavyweights at this current era. We still do get a lot more excited, seeing two heavy hitters go at it. I brought up the peter mccline first becuase in that fight we expected peter to be the one with the iron chin and stronger punch but mccline expose peter, dropping him 3 times in exciting fasion. Peter went on to survive and win the decision but nevertheless we were given a exciting heavyweight match, it even had more action then the pac-mab 2.

Although, one of my favorite fighter right now (nonito"filipino flash" donaire) just k.o'ed the biggest prick vic darchinian in the flyweight division, the heavyweights still do get more attention and produce a lot more excitement.

[frozensolid_702]

Round 1:

Recently we just had the peter mccline fight although I won't pretend that we have great heavyweights at this current era. We still do get a lot more excited, seeing two heavy hitters go at it. I brought up the peter mccline first becuase in that fight we expected peter to be the one with the iron chin and stronger punch but mccline expose peter, dropping him 3 times in exciting fasion. Peter went on to survive and win the decision but nevertheless we were given a exciting heavyweight match, it even had more action then the pac-mab 2.

Although, one of my favorite fighter right now (nonito"filipino flash" donaire) just k.o'ed the biggest prick vic darchinian in the flyweight division, the heavyweights still do get more attention and produce a lot more excitement.

Wlad is an all time great (post emmanuel steward)..................




He just doesn't have the competition to prove it

[Kev]

Round 1. Bilbo's Post

It is my belief that the flyweight division currently produces more excitement and drama than do the plodders and jobbers making up our once elite and glorious heavyweight division.

It seems that even Julius himself would rather talk about the flyweights as he was unable to resist exclaiming how Nonito Donaire, the Filipino Flash, and one of Rain's favourite fighters no less scored an exciting and devastating KO over the much vaunted big punching little guy Vic Darchinyan.

Of course Bilbo is in complete agreement!

Anyway back to the main contention of Bilbo's argument. I believe currently the flyweight divisions are producing more excitement, drama, competition, quality fights, top class boxing and perhaps suprisingly big KO's than the heavyweights do at this present time.

Over the course of this debate I will attempt to provide justifcation for all of my claims. I will start in this post by examining more closely Rain's assertion that the heavyweights still get more attention and produce more excitement, a statement that I believe is false.

First off I will agree with Rains, that traditionally the hevayweight division has been seen as the glamour division, anc certainly in the minds of the casual sports fan, dimly aware of any stars beyond the names of Tyson, Hoylfield, Ali and Foreman this may well always prove to be the case.

However for the educated boxing fan, the idea of the heavyweight division being preeminent in our sport has long since gone out of the window. This much can be demonstrated most fully perhaps by examining the fights and fighters that the most illustrious boxing channel in the world HBO decides to broadcast.

HBO is to many people the face of boxing, they have broadcast almost all of the greatest fights of the last 30 years and beyond and it's certainly intruiging to note that these days their own focus has been very much in the lighter weight divisions.

If you want to see punchers on HBO it's certainly not to the heavyweights that you would look, but rather the exciting little guys, the ever popular Jorge Arce, the powerful and menacing Vic Darchinyan, the popular but recently humbled Brian Viloria.

Suprisingly these guys though have all been exposed in the ring thus bringing to our attention some of the best tacticians and skilled boxers in the entire sport, emerging stars like Christian Mijares and Nonito Donaire who have shown that the little guys can possess skill and talent in abundance.

And recently we saw perhaps the greatest example of speed and skills overcoming size and strength when the tiny Ivan Calderon put on a masterful display to outpoint the big punching Hugo Cazares and stamp his own name in dramatic fashion amongst the best of the flyweight divisions.

It is important to note that for the informed boxing fan these fights were as much essential viewing as any fights in the heavyweight division.

A belief that the boxing spotlight still shines most brightly upon the heavyweight division is sadly about as misguided as the belief that Evander Holyfield has that he will still be champion of the world again.

[Julius Rain]

Round 2: Julius "Marvelous" Rain came out of the first round just testing the waters.....here he tunes up the pace just a bit.

vic, arce and viloria are the three guys you named in the flyweight division that were so called big names, but thanks for pointing out they all have been defeated by lesser names yet better fighters.

Both vic and arce are not exactly fan favorites. Arce is 50/50, with his overly obvious to be popular but always get the shorter end of the show. For example, he rides a hourse to a ring, suppose to look like the horse is dancing and its suppose to be exciting but it turns out to look boring and a dissapointing after arce overly hyped his ring entrance and worst of all mr. suppose to be exciting gets shut down by a technician mijares.

Bilbo I won't disagree with you about good boxers in the flyweight division becuase I dont' have to, we are debating which division produce more excitement. And so far the three guys you name that are suppose to be exciting have all been knock off or shut down by less exciting but better boxers.

Brian Viloria, coming off the olympics this flyweight was dubbed as the strongest puncher in a class out of Jermain "bad intention" Taylor and jeff "lion heart" lacy. Brian delivered and prove the lable of him as a huge puncher was true after he won the flyweight title in the under card of pac-velazquez fight in a brutal 1st round knock out of then champion eric ortiz. After that it was downhill for brains once promising career, it began with jose antonio aguirre. Although he beat jose in a 12 round decision, it showed signs of the slowing down of brians career. Omar Nino Romero, then out points viloria in his next fight and from there on, brian viloria hasn't won a fight. Edgar Sosa and Omar Nino isnt going to be big names as Brians Viloria was once suppose to be.

Bilbo's chances of convincing the judges the flyweight division is a lot more exciting died off with brian vilorias downhill career.

Ivan Calderon, although he posses boxing skills he can't produce the lust for knock outs fight fans grave and the flyweight division need more of. The only way the flyweight can get the attention of other fight fans beside the pure boxing fans is to produce a lot more knock outs. Darchinyan, Arce and Viloria once produce those knock outs but even then it wasn't enough. We can't look to mijares his a pure boxer, and Nonito? maybe but his more likely to be moving up out of the FLYWEIGHT DIVISION. Which leaves nobdy in the flyweight to current grasp more fans attention.

IN the Heavyweights, we atleast have wladimir Klitschko. A improving champion that has been producing knock outs after knock outs lately. His not exactly the russian Ivan Drago we all have grave to see step into a real boxing ring but Wlady has been getting the job done via impressive knock outs. Anybody can admit, when a wladimir klitschko fight is on we tune in.

he has stack up 4 straight k.o's in less than 8 rounds.

Lemon Brewster in 6
Ray Austin in 2
Calvin Brock in 7
Chris Byrd in 7

And the Return of his brother vitaly if it does happen will increase drama in the heavyweights. We don't always have great heavyweights against great heavyweights but there is always drama in the heavyweight divisions. And drama equals excitement.

[Kev]

Bilbo's Round 2 Post.

Before I get onto the next phase of my debate I need first to correct your misunderstanding regarding the defeats of Arce, Viloria and Darchinyan. Far from deflating the drama in the flyweight division the emergence of these slick tactician's has merely added to the flyweight talent pool.

Jorge Arce was soundly beaten by Christian Mijares it is true, but it heralded the birth of an exciting new fighter, not the death of an old one. Arce's career continues to grow strong and Mijares is a very highly regarded potential big name star for the future.

I won't extrapolate further to include the defeats of Viloria and Darchinyan, the merits of individual fighters isn't what's being debated here, rather the excitement factor that the division brings.

Suffice to say though that Darchinyan's defeat, in what has been considered to have been one of the knockout's of the year heralded the rise of another slick boxer puncher and gave a further boost to an already growing division.

Regarding your personal preference of distate towards Arce's ring entrances again you have completely missed the point. The issue isn't whether you personally like him but rather if fighters like Arce are helping to bolster interest in the little guys. The very fact that HBO want to screen his fights and ring entrances, riding in on a horse or a harley just highlights the obvious demand from fight fans to see something different and fresh.

Regarding the competition levels within the heavyweight and flyweight divisions this really is a no brainer. In this post I'll just examine the heavyweight scene and contrast it with the flyweights in my next post.


It is a terrible indictement for the heavyweight division that only it's recognised best fighter Wladimir Klitschko even has a contract with HBO. There is barely any interest from the major networks in the heavyweight division at present.

The heavyweight division is in terrible shape right now. There are barely a handful of guys who have any credibility whatsoever. Wladimir Klitschko is far and away the best fighter in the division yet his status is suspect to virtually all boxing fans and writers alike. I won't get into his high profile KO defeats, it's not relevant regarding excitiment but his jab heavy style has won few boxing fans around the world, most of whom still cry out in a vain hope for Lennox Lewis to return.

Wladimir's recent outings have been wholly uninspiring affairs. His mismatch win over Ray Austin is a fight that shouls never have been made, and his rematch with Lamon Brewster was a torrid viewing experience.

As for the other 'champions', they don't even get televised at all by the major networks. You cannot get a sadder indicement regarding the current state of the heavyweight division than the fact none of the other champions are deemed worthy to be screened by boxing's premier coverage network.

This is really no suprise, with the average age of the current heavyweights being in the mid thirties, with many approaching their 40's and even beyond it's hard to muster much excitement.

As for the younger guys, suppsoedly in their 'primes', well they are considered so poor by fighters from the previous generation that most of them have decided to come back!

That Evander Holyfield almost 45 years of age, who had been banned from boxing due to heart problems and a series of poor performances could mount a comeback that would see him fight for another title this year says more about the abilities of the current lot than any amount of debating ever could.

It's also completely tragic that this title fight wasn't picked up by a major network and instead had to sell itself as a PPV.

Holyfield is not alone in believing he can still achieve success amonsgt the plodders of the current heavyweight scene.

Michael Moorer, Oliver McCall, David Tua and Henry Akinwande all continue to fight on, McCall losing out yeserday in another world title elimanator. If he would have won, and he almost knocked out his opponent in the 10th round, he would have fought for another world title 10 years after losing his last one.

David Tua, who wasn't good enough in his prime to make the championship grade will probably get his chance in 2008 also. Whether it will be televised or not is probably uncertain!

In fact the return of these oldies is probably one of the reasons why HBO have since focused their attention on the lower weights. They want to bring new and exciting boxing to the fans, and clearly the fans don't see it in the heavyweight division.

And why would they? Who wants to see the same fighters you watched a decade ago still fighting now, well past their primes? If you subscribed to SKy Movies or a premium cable movie channel and they were still showing the same films 10 years from now would you cancel your subscription with them? Hell yeah, and that's what HBO and boxing fans have done.

In my next round I'll look at the flyweights.