Judo or Jui Jitsu

[Pure]

my friend wants to learn one of the following because hes a lil guy and wants to join a art for self defence purposes but what would be more affective?
for like street fight/ mugging type Defence? thx

[VictorCharlie]

Judo., I love submissions but at least in my experience BJJ doesn't work enough takedowns, b/c its so easy to just pull guard...Munky can give you more info, but I know that legit Judo schools work alot of submissions as well as the throws. The reality is you are not going to slap an armbar on somebody in a bar, but the throws and body control you will learn will be very beneficial in the typical bar fight or need for self defense...Grappling alone isn't the answer though. Tell your friend to find a boxing or muay thai gym and get at least a basic skill level in striking.

[Heavy D]

Completely agree with Van on this one. Judo by FAR over BJJ for the street. Grappling gets VERY risky in a street situation, because you're never guaranteed a fair fight. While you maye be able to pull guard and guillotine him, he may also just pull a knife while you do that and stab you in the neck. Or maybe when you pull guard, his buddy you didn't notice does the Mexican Hat Dance on your face. The Judo throws will generally end a fight or give you the time to exit stage left quickly.

But your buddy also definately need to pick up some sort of striking art, and preferably boxing or muay thai (kicks require too much room...the punching in boxing or knees/elbows in MT don't). The biggest benefit of these is that they REALLY give you a chance to end a fight quickly before bad things can happen, and they keep you off the floor, where bad things can happen.

One thing to remember....the average guy on the street has NO formal training, and even a one week class in any martial art is going to give you the upper hand. That doesn't mean that you should trust your life to a one week course, but any legitimate martial art school will most likely give you the skills you need to handle yourself in the street.

And on a side note...the absolute best method of self defense? A good mouth and quick brain. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS try to talk your way out of it. NEVER NEVER NEVER fight unless you ABSOLUTELY have to. Sure, maybe you can beat the guy up, but you just never know what's going through his brain. Maybe you kick his ass. Maybe you knock him out. And maybe he has a gun in his car, gets it, and comes back and shoot you. Maybe when some guy grabs your wallet, you can throw him and snap his arm. Maybe you can drop him in one punch. And maybe he has a knife, and stabs your neck.

Can you HONESTLY think of ONE THING that is worth getting killed over if there was another way? The best way to protect yourself from a mugger is to just give him your wallet. It's only money...maybe you can kick his ass, but you better hope that there's a vending machine in heaven where you can spend those 23 dollars you potentially gave your life for.

[Munkymagic]

Completely agree with Van on this one. Judo by FAR over BJJ for the street. Grappling gets VERY risky in a street situation, because you're never guaranteed a fair fight. While you maye be able to pull guard and guillotine him, he may also just pull a knife while you do that and stab you in the neck. Or maybe when you pull guard, his buddy you didn't notice does the Mexican Hat Dance on your face. The Judo throws will generally end a fight or give you the time to exit stage left quickly.

But your buddy also definately need to pick up some sort of striking art, and preferably boxing or muay thai (kicks require too much room...the punching in boxing or knees/elbows in MT don't). The biggest benefit of these is that they REALLY give you a chance to end a fight quickly before bad things can happen, and they keep you off the floor, where bad things can happen.

One thing to remember....the average guy on the street has NO formal training, and even a one week class in any martial art is going to give you the upper hand. That doesn't mean that you should trust your life to a one week course, but any legitimate martial art school will most likely give you the skills you need to handle yourself in the street.

And on a side note...the absolute best method of self defense? A good mouth and quick brain. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS try to talk your way out of it. NEVER NEVER NEVER fight unless you ABSOLUTELY have to. Sure, maybe you can beat the guy up, but you just never know what's going through his brain. Maybe you kick his a**. Maybe you knock him out. And maybe he has a gun in his car, gets it, and comes back and shoot you. Maybe when some guy grabs your wallet, you can throw him and snap his arm. Maybe you can drop him in one punch. And maybe he has a knife, and stabs your neck.

Can you HONESTLY think of ONE THING that is worth getting killed over if there was another way? The best way to protect yourself from a mugger is to just give him your wallet. It's only money...maybe you can kick his a**, but you better hope that there's a vending machine in heaven where you can spend those 23 dollars you potentially gave your life for.

CC mate. Can't really add any more than that. Fantastic advice..especially the last two paragraphs. Ive studied self protection now for years and ive trained for the physical respose but most of the stuff is 'soft skills' using dissuasion techniques, loop holing, understanding body language and attack indicators. Target hardening, how to make yourself less of a target. As heavy D says, if some chap comes up and asks for your wallett then give him it, ego's are very dangerous things and your natural reaction (as a male) may be to try and fight back, F*** that mate..give him your wallet..is $50 really worth getting stabbed or shot for. However if you are with your wife/ girlfriend and kids and the attacker wants to add rape to his booty...this is another scenario altogether.

Bottom line is dont go risking your neck for the sake of your ego or $50. If some guy stares at you from across the bar and asks you "what the F*** you looking at?" politely explain that youve mistaken him for someone else. Dont get involved. The physical response is a LAST RESORT. Also you are within the law to attack 'pre emptively' providing you had the honest belief you were in danger. A lot of people after they walk away suddenly feel like S*** that they, i suppose 'capitulated' like a wimp when they should have stood up to the guy. This is called the black dog. The black dog of your mind questioning you. What you should do is kick the black dog up the a***, give yourself a pat on the back and sit back and enjoy the fact you did a good job. No one is hurt or in jail, in my mind thats coming out a winner.Let the guy in the bar go home and jerk himself in self gratification about his little 'victory', he's most probably one of lifes losers!

Now getting back to the original question between the two styles. Myself being a Judoka i am going to be biased toward Judo BUT i truly believe (as do a lot of others) that Judo is one of the best support systems for self defence going. As a close quarter combat system its fantastic. As mentioned above to be truly prepared for the physical response you need to add striking to your mix. I would class this as primary tools. So seek some instruction in kickboxing, boxing or muay thai. IF your primary tools don't work and the strike gets shaken off and suddenly you are in grappling range, this is where Judo suddenly becomes your best friend. No fancy stuff..no spinning tricks just good, solid tried and tested throws that will slam the guy into the deck and give you a window of escape (a thrown on to hard flooring will take the fight out of them 9 times out of 10 anyway). Judo throws are not easy to learn and you have to learn them against fully resisting opponents, also the throw (for a judoka) is instinctive when in this range. If for some reason it goes wrong and you end up on the deck. There are more than enough chokes and submissions in the judo arsenal to put the assailant away. If you decide to take judo ansure they focus on newaza (groundwork) aswell. I train 60% standup and 40% groundwork and i have done for years. Judo also teaches you body mechanics, weight displacement. When a chap grabs hold of you this is your arena, it doesn't matter what the fuck he does to you..pulls you, pushes you, tries to slam you against a wall. You would have seen it/felt it all before in the dojo or in competition and your body instinctively deals with it. Suddenly this guy is thinking 'hang on a minute'..midway through the word 'minute' going through his mind he finds himself flying through the air and hurtling toward the deck with force.
Problem with BJJ is all their work is done on the deck, BJJers dont like standup, in a street situation the floor is THE LAST place you want to be. Rolling around in dogshit and broken bottles with no doubt one of his pals ready to play football with your head. KEEPOFF THE DECK in the street...itd hardly ever one on one.

I'll say what ive always said about the whole BJJ vs Judo argumet. In the octagon BJJ is great but on a cold night outside a burger joint facing up to a drunk thug and his mates who have decided you just dont 'look right'..well BJJ will be left wanting and most likely get you seriously hurt. Judo on the other hand will step up to the plate and offer you a solid support system and (in my mind) keep you much safer on the streets and more readliy prepared for the physical response.

Sorry for droning on

[Von Milash]

cc

[VictorCharlie]

Munky have you ever watched the Helio Gracie v Kimura video? Gracie gets owned pretty well. Pretty similar to Royce vs Yoshida. Ofcourse another good BBj vs Judo video is BJ Penn at some big Judo tournament. He kicks a**.

on a side note is the Judokan Kimura the inventor of the submission move of the same name? Anyone know

[Von Milash]

van, yes. the inventor of the kimura was kimura. don't know his first name though. pro'bly the guy you said.

[Munkymagic]

Hi Van,

Here is a message i wrote on a thread a while back on BJJ/Judo and it also inculdes a bit on Kimura/Gracie

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"Von i would love to agree with you here but inavariably the BJJ exponent wins if its a ground grappling match simply because thats solely what they work on. They roll constantly and quite frankly its fookin boring to watch. Anyone ever wathed a BJJ match? Its ok for the first 5 minutes watching them gain dominant positions but after that its not very interesting...const antly waiting in guard for an opportunity and there is very little action.

Go watch a live judo match and see someone get tossed in the air at the blink of an eye, then if the guys twsist out of the throw and lands on his front watch how quickly and explosively the agressor moves into the groundwork.

Judo newaza is a lot more explosive. Because of limited matt time in competition if you are gonna do something on the ground you do it f*cking quick you dont hang about. Myself and a couple of other lads from my school went to a BJJ class. Ok it was a bit naughty and we wore white belts. The instructor was a fookin blue belt BJJ! We had some fun there Grin. At the end of the day i respect BJJ for what it is and thats a great submission art. All of BJJ's subs have been explored and expaned from Judo..orginally kosen judo which is a pretty much newaza based form of Kodokan judo.

If you want to know what happens when an olympic level judoka fights a skilled BJJ exponent then look at Hidehiko Yoshidas matches against Royce Gracie. First one Yoshida won (ok it was contraversial and everyone has their opinion on it) the second match was a draw. Yoshida won the gold medal at the Barcelona olympics and was quite frankly not greatly known for groundwork. his uchimata throw was one of the fiercest around and he slammed everybody with it. I think you'll agree though that Judo stacks up nicely against BJJ on the ground but pound for pound BJJ has the edge because its solely what they work on.

As for the most rounded in terms of submissions and takedowns, balance on the feet, defence against takedowns the i'm sorry all you BJJers (and i love you believe me) but Judo pips you to the post.

Oh and there is also the small matter of Kimura (great japanese judoka) breaking Helio Gracies arm in a match. He got him in a ude garame which is now called...well...a kimura.

So all you MMA ers at least now when you hear people talk about Kimuras being aplied and it being a great BJJ move at least now you can correct them and say "erm sorry its actually Judo...know your place son"

Here's a little history on how the greatest BJJ'er got owned by one of the greatest Judokas (i suppose in some way backing your threory Von ). Kimura was awesome, an animal.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Kimura-Article.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura

"

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Here is the full thread because i think you might find it interesting and you were away in Iraq at the time i think


http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxing_fo...-t39940.0.html

[Heavy D]

I'm pretty sure Kimura was named "Kimura" after Kimura used it to break Helio's arm.

Hot damn thats a lot of "Kimura"s :P

Also, CC guys

[VictorCharlie]

I enjoyed the thread and videos. Obviously with the throw you have your opponent off balance and controlled so they quite often roll right into the sub opportunity. I've been attempting to incorporate some good "flying" armbars and ankle locks, but w/o the Gi I'm finding it pretty difficult. I'm not the most agile and quick guy either. The seamless transition after the throw was impressive though. When watching alot of the BJJ vs Judo vids I've noticed that instead of locking up w/ the judokan the BJJ practitioner usually does some sort of slide or drop to get a single leg. The strength of BJJ is the importance they put on fighting from the guard. Whether the emphasis and techniques are legitmately a Helio Gracie improvisation or just taken from Judo or traditional JJ. I'm really looking forward to working out w/ Texas A&Ms Judo team when I'm home on leave next month. I've been getting back into training slowly since I got back but I'm working through some injuries sustained during the deployment. The All Army Combatives Tournament is in Nov and barring another deployment I hope to compete.

On a side note Munky:
1. What are the rules stipulating how long a fight can go on the ground in Judo?
2. How well do you feel the Judo throws transition w/o the Gi?
3. I've never seen the move on the video where essentially you get your legs around your opponents head and shoulder then pull their leg to their head. What is it called and where is the submission at?(where do you feel it I mean)

[Heavy D]

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that it's a strangling submission of sorts. I don't know about you, but if someone folded me in half like that, I'd probably have trouble breathing.

[Munkymagic]

I enjoyed the thread and videos. Obviously with the throw you have your opponent off balance and controlled so they quite often roll right into the sub opportunity. I've been attempting to incorporate some good "flying" armbars and ankle locks, but w/o the Gi I'm finding it pretty difficult. I'm not the most agile and quick guy either. The seamless transition after the throw was impressive though. When watching alot of the BJJ vs Judo vids I've noticed that instead of locking up w/ the judokan the BJJ practitioner usually does some sort of slide or drop to get a single leg. The strength of BJJ is the importance they put on fighting from the guard. Whether the emphasis and techniques are legitmately a Helio Gracie improvisation or just taken from Judo or traditional JJ. I'm really looking forward to working out w/ Texas A&Ms Judo team when I'm home on leave next month. I've been getting back into training slowly since I got back but I'm working through some injuries sustained during the deployment. The All Army Combatives Tournament is in Nov and barring another deployment I hope to compete.

On a side note Munky:
1. What are the rules stipulating how long a fight can go on the ground in Judo?
2. How well do you feel the Judo throws transition w/o the Gi?
3. I've never seen the move on the video where essentially you get your legs around your opponents head and shoulder then pull their leg to their head. What is it called and where is the submission at?(where do you feel it I mean)

Just watched that vid again. The flying armbars are a pleasure to watch. Especially the very first move on the vid which is a drop sienoage throw straight into an armbar...he's already won the point with the throw i think the flash bastard, was beauty personified.

To answer your questions

1) Its up to the referees as to how long they let things go on on the ground. Generaly though they like to see something happening withint 30 seconds or it gets stood back up again. This is why Judo newawza is so explosive because you have so little time on the ground that you want to get stuck in and get the sub QUICK. You are not allowed to deliberately go for the takedown BJJ style with a double leg shoot. It has to be via a failed throw or one of the judokas twisting out of a throw and landing on his side (this awards a wazari or similar to the opponent...not a full ippon so the contest goes on), then the groundwork starts. This is why turtling is a favoured defence move in Judo competition. Because if they can hold something off by turtling and grabbing their gi lapels and tucking their chin in for 30 secs then it will go back to feet. We still use the guard in judo and we train how to attack from it and pass it BUT its not explored to the extent it is in BJJ.

2) Depends. It needs to be worked and practised without gi of course but most throws are easily adapted. The main advantage of the gi of course is the grip, it is something that does not easily slip out of your hands but without the gi its more diffifult due to the sweat and/or blood on the body. The very first throw on the vid, the drop sieonage is quite easily adapted but its only worth doing if you are a very highly skilled judoka (simply because you are giving your opponent your back..albeit for a split second). Karo Parysian has pulled this throw off a few times.
Also hip throws are easy to do since the main leverage point comes at the hips and you onyl really need to put your arm around their wasit to guide them over. Bear in mind this stuff only works if 1) you have broken balance by way of deception, knowledge of weight displacement and 2) you are explosive,quick and fully committed to the throw.
Reaps,leg sweeps and others throws again can be adapted its just a matter of substituting the grip on the gi for another part of the body (not a great deal of choice) that allows you similar leverage. If you manage to get to a judo class ask if they train some no gi stuff. I could go on all night about this subject.. :P

3) Thats actually a choking move using the gi lapel. If you look closely the gi is being pulled across the larynx from the far side crushing it, the leg hold is so he cannot get leverage to twist out of the choke. The reason for the insanely quick tap is it causes immense panic when you are not really expecting it. Its not like a RNC where you fight it for a bit...this choke crushes your larynx and you tap fucking quick. The move where The chap in the white gi rolls his opponent into it is a great move, set up perfectly.

Hope this helps

[Munkymagic]

Actually Van not sure ive looked at the right submission you are talking about. What time is at in the vid mate? (sorry i must admit i only looked up to about 3 mins as i thought i saw the one you were talking about)

[VictorCharlie]

looks like 506 414 334 are all the same moves in question

[babyboNe]

i've been saying it for years here,

NINJUTSU is the ultimate fighting style. look it up bRo,

if there is a ninjutsu fighter in any mma fight, he'd be legendary.