Who suffered worse in their defeat, Cotto or Pavlik?

[Rantcatrat]

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

[ICB]

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

Kelly Pavlik for certain the fight has basically ended his chances, against any sort of fight with Joe Calzaghe. He also lost every round to a 43 year old in which many people thought Kelly Pavlik would win. He also looked flat as a pancake.

Miguel Cotto vs Antonio Margarito was seen as a very close fight, Miguel Cotto fought a very good fight he tried his hardest. But Antonio Margarito had too good of a chin and his workrate was too much, i don't see how Miguel Cotto losing to Antonio Margarito is worse than Kelly Pavlik losing to Bernard Hopkins.

Miguel Cotto will atleast get a chance to revenge his loss, and his reputation hasn't suffered that much at all. Where as Kelly Pavlik is already getting called overrated and he will never have a chance at a rematch.

[killersheep]

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

I think the more damaging defeat was that to Pavlik, he was had zero success from opening bell until the scores were read. Cotto started out well so he at least had that, of course it it frustrating when you're doing everything right sitting down on your punches and nothing seems to have the devastating effect.

[Rantcatrat]

I guess I was wrong!

Even though Cotto looked like someone ran sandpaper on his face and Pavlik looked relatively normal? Physically, obviously Cotto suffered more. Is it the opinion that Pavlik suffered more mentally than Cotto?

Pavlik was beat at lhw, but normally fights at middleweight. Cotto was beat at his natural weight, welterweight. Pavlik has retained his middleweight belts, Cotto lost his welterweight belts.

True, his reputation suffered. Pavlik won't get a fight with Calzaghe, but that was never guaranteed anyway. He also won't get a rematch with Bernard, but after the schooling he took, why would he want one?

[kingfrnk]

its pretty close to me i think kellys was probably a little more worse, but cotto had a terrible defeat and it was by TKO i give pavlik credit for not hitting the canvas or giving up and taking a beatin like a man. but cotto did take those knees which looks real bad especially if your the favorite. they both took ass whoopins but i say cottos was a worse beatin and pavliks was a worse defeat.

[LEGION]

IMO Pavlik; and since Killer and ICB already gave the reasons I won't bore anyone with much more.

Pavlik got shown for what he is, hard as it is to say for me, a fairly one dimensional fighter who had a major case of DITH that night against Hopkins, and was embarassed. Great at what he does and a ferocious finisher; but lacking in mobility and an inherent ability to change a gameplan.

Cotto jut got outbullied by a guy who happens to have iron in his DNA. He showed imo a great ability to box but just got caught one too many times and eventually wore out.

If Pavlik had that same kind of ability to walk through punches like Cotto his fight with Hopkins could have been very similar to the Cotto/Margarito fight. Maybe I'm delusional as I just woke up and my mind is scrambled right now

[hit2win]

Mentally-Pavlik
Physically and Mentally-Cotto

So, it's Cotto who suffered more...

[Rantcatrat]

IMO Pavlik; and since Killer and ICB already gave the reasons I won't bore anyone with much more.

Pavlik got shown for what he is, hard as it is to say for me, a fairly one dimensional fighter who had a major case of DITH that night against Hopkins, and was embarassed. Great at what he does and a ferocious finisher; but lacking in mobility and an inherent ability to change a gameplan.

Cotto jut got outbullied by a guy who happens to have iron in his DNA. He showed imo a great ability to box but just got caught one too many times and eventually wore out.

If Pavlik had that same kind of ability to walk through punches like Cotto his fight with Hopkins could have been very similar to the Cotto/Margarito fight. Maybe I'm delusional as I just woke up and my mind is scrambled right now

Bottom line, from what I gather, Pavlik suffered more because the blueprint was laid out on how to beat him?

I am assuming that people think Cotto is more likely to bounce back from his defeat than Pavlik is his?

I disagree. Cotto significantly dropped in his welterweight ranking. Pwill and Margarito are obviously yards ahead of him. As long as they stay at that weight, Cotto will never be on top of his game. Pavlik still stands strong at middleweight. Other than AA, who can beat him?

[LEGION]

IMO Pavlik; and since Killer and ICB already gave the reasons I won't bore anyone with much more.

Pavlik got shown for what he is, hard as it is to say for me, a fairly one dimensional fighter who had a major case of DITH that night against Hopkins, and was embarassed. Great at what he does and a ferocious finisher; but lacking in mobility and an inherent ability to change a gameplan.

Cotto jut got outbullied by a guy who happens to have iron in his DNA. He showed imo a great ability to box but just got caught one too many times and eventually wore out.

If Pavlik had that same kind of ability to walk through punches like Cotto his fight with Hopkins could have been very similar to the Cotto/Margarito fight. Maybe I'm delusional as I just woke up and my mind is scrambled right now

Bottom line, from what I gather, Pavlik suffered more because the blueprint was laid out on how to beat him?

I am assuming that people think Cotto is more likely to bounce back from his defeat than Pavlik is his?

I disagree. Cotto significantly dropped in his welterweight ranking. Pwill and Margarito are obviously yards ahead of him. As long as they stay at that weight, Cotto will never be on top of his game. Pavlik still stands strong at middleweight. Other than AA, who can beat him?

Good points for sure; and yes Pavlik is still going to be very hard to beat at MW with the exception of AA; but then again who is at MW that even has a name? Granted Kelly moved up 2 weights to fight Hopkins, so maybe you are correct and it didn't tarnish his rep as much as I see.

But Pavlik I doubt will be able to fight at MW forever and there are quite a few guys at SMW that are going to handle him. I think it hurt Pavlik more in the aspect of him knowing now he is pretty damn limited, and though I think mentally he is strong; that kind of loss will haunt him as he realizes that he can't just expect to keep throwing some jabs and an overhand right and expect to wear someone down eventually without some backup plan, which he doesn't have.

Yes Cotto is in trouble with Margarito and Williams being in the WW division. I wouldn't go as far as to say Margarito is roads ahead of him; just able to sustain ridiculous amounts of punches and slops his way through; though I guess Tony doesn't care if he looks good doing it or not as long as he wins. I still say Cotto can beat him and will in a rematch, though that is just blowing hot air and we'll find out later. Williams is just a freak and will give everyone problems; just a severe height advantage and he's got good skills.

Cotto knows he is still a great boxer and can beat anyone in his division, alot of them and very good names. Pavlik found out he can't box and is a tank that only has one way tracks to drive on, and though he can win a MW with really no names, he will always get labeled a guy who had to stay in a division with limited comp and failed at higher weights, if indeed he does decide to stay at MW from here on out. Pavlik will be in a weak division winning, where as Cotto is in one of the top divisions and may suffer a couple of losses. Who will get more respect when their careers are over?

And for the record Pavlik and Margarito are my fave current fighters and have been, so I'm no hater Jesus what a rambling post this is I really suck at debating.........

[Rantcatrat]

IMO Pavlik; and since Killer and ICB already gave the reasons I won't bore anyone with much more.

Pavlik got shown for what he is, hard as it is to say for me, a fairly one dimensional fighter who had a major case of DITH that night against Hopkins, and was embarassed. Great at what he does and a ferocious finisher; but lacking in mobility and an inherent ability to change a gameplan.

Cotto jut got outbullied by a guy who happens to have iron in his DNA. He showed imo a great ability to box but just got caught one too many times and eventually wore out.

If Pavlik had that same kind of ability to walk through punches like Cotto his fight with Hopkins could have been very similar to the Cotto/Margarito fight. Maybe I'm delusional as I just woke up and my mind is scrambled right now

Bottom line, from what I gather, Pavlik suffered more because the blueprint was laid out on how to beat him?

I am assuming that people think Cotto is more likely to bounce back from his defeat than Pavlik is his?

I disagree. Cotto significantly dropped in his welterweight ranking. Pwill and Margarito are obviously yards ahead of him. As long as they stay at that weight, Cotto will never be on top of his game. Pavlik still stands strong at middleweight. Other than AA, who can beat him?

Good points for sure; and yes Pavlik is still going to be very hard to beat at MW with the exception of AA; but then again who is at MW that even has a name? Granted Kelly moved up 2 weights to fight Hopkins, so maybe you are correct and it didn't tarnish his rep as much as I see.

But Pavlik I doubt will be able to fight at MW forever and there are quite a few guys at SMW that are going to handle him. I think it hurt Pavlik more in the aspect of him knowing now he is pretty damn limited, and though I think mentally he is strong; that kind of loss will haunt him as he realizes that he can't just expect to keep throwing some jabs and an overhand right and expect to wear someone down eventually without some backup plan, which he doesn't have.

Yes Cotto is in trouble with Margarito and Williams being in the WW division. I wouldn't go as far as to say Margarito is roads ahead of him; just able to sustain ridiculous amounts of punches and slops his way through; though I guess Tony doesn't care if he looks good doing it or not as long as he wins. I still say Cotto can beat him and will in a rematch, though that is just blowing hot air and we'll find out later. Williams is just a freak and will give everyone problems; just a severe height advantage and he's got good skills.

Cotto knows he is still a great boxer and can beat anyone in his division, alot of them and very good names. Pavlik found out he can't box and is a tank that only has one way tracks to drive on, and though he can win a MW with really no names, he will always get labeled a guy who had to stay in a division with limited comp and failed at higher weights, if indeed he does decide to stay at MW from here on out. Pavlik will be in a weak division winning, where as Cotto is in one of the top divisions and may suffer a couple of losses. Who will get more respect when their careers are over?

And for the record Pavlik and Margarito are my fave current fighters and have been, so I'm no hater Jesus what a rambling post this is I really suck at debating.........

I'm not sure Pavlik's was hurt more mentally. Recall that Cotto couldn't even face the cameras afterward. He didn't even speak to the media for a week. Watch that fight again. He took three knees! He was forced to give up. Compelled. His will was broken. He couldn't stand it any longer. Unlike Amir Khan, who suffered a one punch knockout, Cotto suffered a sustained beat down. I agree with the concept that as long as you don't become punch shy, a knockout isn't necessarily destructive, but having your will broken? That is very different indeed.

In Pavlik's defense, he was forthright about his defeat and didn't seem embarrassed by it. He came right out and said he got "whupped." It is one thing to be schooled. To be shown that you have flaws that you need to fix or that you can't fight at 170 as effectively as you can at your natural weight. It is quite another to be beat into submission at your natural weight.

Speaking of dominating a weak division for years and still being regarded as a great, uhmmm...Joe Calzaghe. Joe didn't fight the Bhops and RJJ's and Kessler's until he had fought many, many fighters and learned an invaluable amount of boxing technique. Obviously, their innate talent levels are different, but dominating any division for years and learning the finer parts of the sweet science is nothing to be ashamed of.

[RozzySean]

Pavlik had the more humiliating and mentally damaging defeat. He was made to look like an amateur, but it wasn't a terrible physcal beating.

Cotto took the worse physical beating. Cotto showed that he was the more skilled boxer and won many rounds, but he physical abuse took it's toll on him. It was a little similar to Chavez/Taylor.

[Fenster]

We wont know the answer until they comeback.

I would bet Pavlik's loss - for the reasons already given - was far more damaging.

[Deanrw]

It depends on how each fighter handles it.

Cotto had a lot of success in his fight, but still got beaten after seemingly having the fight his way at the beginning. He did have success in that fight and has something to build on for the future and can probably see the corrections he has to make.

Pavlik had no success and was never in his fight. If he chalks it to just a terrible night, he could rebound fine. If he concentrates on how badly he was beaten, and tries to find out what he did wrong, he will never find an answer for it.

Both of them have a huge task ahead of them. Both of them have a huge amount of pride. They both had incredible confidence that got shattered. Cotto will always question his own durability and Pavlik will always question his skill level.

[DaxxKahn]

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

Pavlik was embaressed and everything he tried he could not get off...something like that can destroy the mentalityt of a fighter worse then a KO loss....It can make you feel like you are not worthy being at that level....You become worried in your next fight with someone of high caliber that you may be humuliated in public again...Embaressment can do crazy things to you......

Cotto was out muscled and he found out that he can not break every fighter down....it can also be very mind damaging but it as long as the fighter does not become punch shy they are usually able to recover

[DaxxKahn]

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

Pavlik was embaressed and everything he tried he could not get off...something like that can destroy the mentalityt of a fighter worse then a KO loss....It can make you feel like you are not worthy being at that level....You become worried in your next fight with someone of high caliber that you may be humuliated in public again...Embaressment can do crazy things to you......

Cotto was out muscled and he found out that he can not break every fighter down....it can also be very mind damaging but it as long as the fighter does not become punch shy they are usually able to recover much easier