Louis/Ali

[YIDDLE]

louis and ali were both credited with helping the advancement of the african american but which out of the two achieved more.

for me it is louis

[Master]

Tough question.

In the sense that Black people were respected and not despised and lynched for being respectful then it was Louis. Ali, a lot like Johnson, was in your face and did not hide and shy away from controversy. Both brought pride for African Americana's but in much different ways.

[jdonaher1]

To me it has to be Joe. Because of how Joe acted as a champion, at a time when most white people still out and out hated blacks, he changed some white peoples opinions about blacks. Because of that a brash kid like Ali could come out and say whatever he wanted. Also Louis was beloved by almost all blacks, Ali was 50/50. Lots of conservative whites hated Ali and so did a fair amount of blacks who thought Ali was doing great harm with his ways.

Now some people will say that Joe acted like an "Uncle Tom" during his reign, never pushing the establishment to do something to change race relations but I disagree. Remember no black was allowed to fight for the title for 20+ after Jack Johnson lost the title. Joe was one slip up away from having it all pulled out from under him. I think Ali was greatly under the influence of Herbert Mohammad and the Nation of Islam and many of the “great social advancements” attributed to him where not of his idea.

Also there has been a lot of revisionist history about Ali. Maybe some of it is sympathy towards his illness but Ali was sometime horrible to the fighters he fought. What he did to Frazier was disgusting and was so cruel. I truly believe Ali’s reasons for not going to Vietnam where completely selfish and had nothing to do with being a “conscientious objector” It was all about losing time to make money. Now Ali’s post career, Louis has nothing to compare it to. Ali is probably the most recognizable figure in the entire world and is seen as a peace ambassador. What he has done since has been beautiful and should be commended.

[Master]

I agree with a lot of your points but Ali did stand by his principles and give up the title when he could have come to an amicable agreement with the government if he tried. The fact that he gave up his best years takes a lot of courage. He became broke and had to fights with Rocky, speeches to students and lend money from Frazier.

[Cressa121]

To me it has to be Joe. Because of how Joe acted as a champion, at a time when most white people still out and out hated blacks, he changed some white peoples opinions about blacks. Because of that a brash kid like Ali could come out and say whatever he wanted. Also Louis was beloved by almost all blacks, Ali was 50/50. Lots of conservative whites hated Ali and so did a fair amount of blacks who thought Ali was doing great harm with his ways.

Now some people will say that Joe acted like an "Uncle Tom" during his reign, never pushing the establishment to do something to change race relations but I disagree. Remember no black was allowed to fight for the title for 20+ after Jack Johnson lost the title. Joe was one slip up away from having it all pulled out from under him. I think Ali was greatly under the influence of Herbert Mohammad and the Nation of Islam and many of the “great social advancements” attributed to him where not of his idea.

Also there has been a lot of revisionist history about Ali. Maybe some of it is sympathy towards his illness but Ali was sometime horrible to the fighters he fought. What he did to Frazier was disgusting and was so cruel. I truly believe Ali’s reasons for not going to Vietnam where completely selfish and had nothing to do with being a “conscientious objector” It was all about losing time to make money. Now Ali’s post career, Louis has nothing to compare it to. Ali is probably the most recognizable figure in the entire world and is seen as a peace ambassador. What he has done since has been beautiful and should be commended.

I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.

[jdonaher1]

To me it has to be Joe. Because of how Joe acted as a champion, at a time when most white people still out and out hated blacks, he changed some white peoples opinions about blacks. Because of that a brash kid like Ali could come out and say whatever he wanted. Also Louis was beloved by almost all blacks, Ali was 50/50. Lots of conservative whites hated Ali and so did a fair amount of blacks who thought Ali was doing great harm with his ways.

Now some people will say that Joe acted like an "Uncle Tom" during his reign, never pushing the establishment to do something to change race relations but I disagree. Remember no black was allowed to fight for the title for 20+ after Jack Johnson lost the title. Joe was one slip up away from having it all pulled out from under him. I think Ali was greatly under the influence of Herbert Mohammad and the Nation of Islam and many of the “great social advancements” attributed to him where not of his idea.

Also there has been a lot of revisionist history about Ali. Maybe some of it is sympathy towards his illness but Ali was sometime horrible to the fighters he fought. What he did to Frazier was disgusting and was so cruel. I truly believe Ali’s reasons for not going to Vietnam where completely selfish and had nothing to do with being a “conscientious objector” It was all about losing time to make money. Now Ali’s post career, Louis has nothing to compare it to. Ali is probably the most recognizable figure in the entire world and is seen as a peace ambassador. What he has done since has been beautiful and should be commended.

I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.

Those are fair points and I agree somewhat but Ali never came out against the war until his draft status changed and there was a real chance he would get drafted. By the time Ali could have stepped back the public was very much against him and his chances to make money in the US were going away quickly. Even if Ali had joined he would have lost 2 years of his prime and he was a very active heavyweight fighting 3 or 4 times a year. That's alot of money to lose.

[El Kabong]

JOE LOUIS

Ali was a great boxer no doubt, but the way he acted and what he stood for were not compatable. He wanted peace and brotherhood and for African-Americans to stand up for themselves but he treated his two biggest rivals like dirt for no other reason other than the FACT that he was a psychological bully. If he wasn't a true bully he would have made peace with Joe Frazier loooong before he did and George Foreman just doesn't hold grudges now that he's found Jesus.

Joe Louis had to walk a tight rope while he was at the top and ANY screw up could have had him in trouble. Yet despite the rules he had to follow and losing out on his prime due to World War II he advanced African-Americans.....he got the PGA to allow black golfers, he got the Armed Forces to desegregate for his boxing exhibitions, and he was a true ROLE MODEL infront of the cameras....he never gloated over his opponents, he never talked shit, he was a class act.

[Cressa121]

To me it has to be Joe. Because of how Joe acted as a champion, at a time when most white people still out and out hated blacks, he changed some white peoples opinions about blacks. Because of that a brash kid like Ali could come out and say whatever he wanted. Also Louis was beloved by almost all blacks, Ali was 50/50. Lots of conservative whites hated Ali and so did a fair amount of blacks who thought Ali was doing great harm with his ways.

Now some people will say that Joe acted like an "Uncle Tom" during his reign, never pushing the establishment to do something to change race relations but I disagree. Remember no black was allowed to fight for the title for 20+ after Jack Johnson lost the title. Joe was one slip up away from having it all pulled out from under him. I think Ali was greatly under the influence of Herbert Mohammad and the Nation of Islam and many of the “great social advancements” attributed to him where not of his idea.

Also there has been a lot of revisionist history about Ali. Maybe some of it is sympathy towards his illness but Ali was sometime horrible to the fighters he fought. What he did to Frazier was disgusting and was so cruel. I truly believe Ali’s reasons for not going to Vietnam where completely selfish and had nothing to do with being a “conscientious objector” It was all about losing time to make money. Now Ali’s post career, Louis has nothing to compare it to. Ali is probably the most recognizable figure in the entire world and is seen as a peace ambassador. What he has done since has been beautiful and should be commended.

I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.

Those are fair points and I agree somewhat but Ali never came out against the war until his draft status changed and there was a real chance he would get drafted. By the time Ali could have stepped back the public was very much against him and his chances to make money in the US were going away quickly. Even if Ali had joined he would have lost 2 years of his prime and he was a very active heavyweight fighting 3 or 4 times a year. That's alot of money to lose.

Good point. I think its a situation that can be argued either way, they're both plausible motives. The points you made definitely could be behind his reason for doing it, I've just always looked at it the other way