Muhammad Ali and the wins that should never have been.

[Vendettos]

There has been a lot of Ali talk this last week or so, now I'm not a huge fan of his but I don't really dislike him either.

I decided to keep this theme going by pointing out some stuff that you already know or don't and can debate with me.

1. George Foreman had idiots in his corner!
I believe that all they had to do was tell him to slow the fuck DOWN. If he just relaxed a bit he could have cake walked to the decision. At least that is my view.
Now Ali was hitting him and started the first 2 rounds with right hand leads but his punch output rapidly decreased.

Agree?

2. Joe Fraizer won the Thrilla in Manilla!
Ali walked to his corner and asked Dundee to cut his gloves off while Fraizer protested with his trainer to let him continue fighting.
The reason Ali won? Either Futch (Frazier trainer) was louder than Dundee to alert the ref or the ref just happened to be closer to Futch, I don't recall Padillas (the ref) position at the time.

Agree?

[IamInuit]

Can’t agree with either take. Foreman never bothered with boxing skill until after his hiatus post Young so when he entered the Ali fight the heavy favourite it was based on all the clubbing’s he doled out prior to that. He would simply trap and over power his opponents. Guys like Frazier and Norton volunteered to fight Foremans fight and we all know what happened. Ali used the ring, dazzled him with speed and frustrated the hell out of him by refusing to stand still. Foremans punches looked like they were in slow motion and were at many times open handed thrown from the parking lot. Masterful performance by Ali who also took Foremans head out of the fight before the bell rang to start the contest.

The Thrilla in Manilla is a very fan friendly fight and I can’t even guess how many times I have watched it over the years but it wasn’t really that close. The cards were and are indicative of the fight I watched and I was a huge Frazier fan. Prior to the stoppage the scores were 166-160,166-162,167-162.

If people want to watch a fight that Ali lost but won then they need to watch the Jimmy Young fight. Time and time again I can’t give Ali more then three rounds. The Doug Jones fight is another close one regardless of LoScalzo’s lopsided card.

[Beanflicker]

I can't agree with either. I don't like talking about would have's, could have's and should have's. Boxing is all about results. There's no do-overs. Two guys go into the ring, whoever is the better man that night wins (barring a BS decision).

Foreman blew his load and got KO'd. Frazier and Ali played chicken and Frazier's corner pulled up first, even if it was just a matter of seconds in difference. That's boxing, they came up short. Every top fighter who's ever lost has a "should have".

I think the wins that should be focused on are the Ken Norton robberies (Norton had Ali's number) and cutting of the glove/smelling salts used to revive him in the Cooper fight.

[Vendettos]

I agree with you both, this isn't a "they should have" it's more of a "in hindsight".

I mean I do believe if foreman just took a few steps back, he would of had Ali.

Same with the Fraizer one, it annoys me that they called it at the 14th, I mean he was blind how long? Just a nod from Futch and Frazier won it.

But again I agree with you both.

[Beanflicker]

I agree I'd take Foreman in a rematch immediately after. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

In his book, he claimed he was poisoned and that Ali's people had the ropes loosened to Ali could lay on them. Can't blame him for being full of excuses, it must have really hurt is pride to get played like a fool.

And to me, Frazier going that hard against Ali blind in one eye and with his blood pressure issues, that's a victory in itself.

[Vendettos]

I agree I'd take Foreman in a rematch immediately after. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

In his book, he claimed he was poisoned and that Ali's people had the ropes loosened to Ali could lay on them. Can't blame him for being full of excuses, it must have really hurt is pride to get played like a fool.

And to me, Frazier going that hard against Ali blind in one eye and with his blood pressure issues, that's a victory in itself.

Yeah totally, but imagine how he felt finding out that Ali was gonna call it a day, where wanted to go on. That musta been a big issue as to why he resented him.

[mzsk2003]

ali was indeed a overrated fighter. he was a good person but not the boxer he is made out to be. he had to work real hard and sacrifice his health. he just made it appear easy for himself.

[IamInuit]

This thread is about fights that Ali won that perhaps he should not have and just because I think Young beat him and Doug Jones gave him issues does not mean that I think they are better fighters. Jimmy Young is probably the best heavyweight to never win a title. One of the most technically savvy fighters of all time and underrated like no other.

@mzsk2003

ali was indeed a overrated fighter

Who happened to dominate the most competitive heavyweight era of all time.

[Master]

ali was indeed a overrated fighter. he was a good person but not the boxer he is made out to be. he had to work real hard and sacrifice his health. he just made it appear easy for himself.

Not a good first post mate. Ali may have worked hard but he had talent to go with it which is the reason why he achieved so much.

[johnmaff36]

ali was indeed a overrated fighter. he was a good person but not the boxer he is made out to be. he had to work real hard and sacrifice his health. he just made it appear easy for himself.

He has the best resume ever at heavyweight !!!!

He has Liston, patterson, frazier, ellis, foreman, Norton, Terrell, and to a lesser degree, Spinks all heavyweight champions and 12 wins outta 15 against them
He fought Quarry, Foster,Shavers, Cooper, Bugner, Young, Lyle, Bonavena and has 11 wins outts 11 against them.

Thats before even mentioning doug jones, cleveland williams, chuvalo and Folley.

He knocked out Foreman, something nobody could even do when he was fighting in his mid-late 40s

He knocked out Bonavena, something nobody else could do, Frazier couldnt do it in 2 fights.

A 3 time heavyweight champ who lost 5 times in 21yrs as a pro, 3 of which came in his last 4 fights when he was showing the early stages of parkinsons, so that gives him 2 losses in his first 18yrs as a pro and against all those names above.


Yeah, a real overated fighter alright