Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy

[Rantcatrat]

Gentlemen, and especially fans of Floyd Mayweather Jr.,

I have a couple of questions for you. In prepartion for the big Mayweather fight this weekend, I read a few articles from respected websites on the man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Check Doug Fisher's mailbag this week on the Ring Magazine's Website for an example. The articles suggest that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has left a number of meaningful fights on the table in his career. Some of the missed fights were from when he was promoted by Bob Arum, and others from his post-Arum era. There are probably very good reasons why he didn't engage in bouts with the guys below during his rise to the top of the p4p list. Of course, they still didn't happen. Will people educate me on why each of these fights didn't get made?

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
Miguel Cotto (2007-200
Paul Williams (200
Winky Wright (2009)
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Sergio Martinez (2012)

Now many people claim that Floyd is a top-25 all-time great fighter. Can someone provide me with a historical comparison of other top-25 all-time great boxers with regard to the boxers they arguably missed? For example, Roberto Duran, Ike Williams, Joe Louis, Benny Leonard? Did they miss as many boxers in their career? Is it not uncommon amongst the best to have that many misses? Or is it uncommon? I understand there may be reasons for it e.g. the eras are different in terms of how many professional fights a fighter has over his career, and that economics are different etc.

Thank you for your help.

Disclaimer: I have no intention of suggesting that Floyd hasn't had an amazing carreer, or that he hasn't had great wins, such as Castillo II, Oscar De La Hoya, and Diego Corrales etc.

[TitoFan]

Good thread.

Rant, I would put asterisks on Winky and Sergio. Regardless of the fact that jumping many weight classes is all the rage now.... if you look strictly at natural weights and size.... these fighters IMO have never been an easy fit with Floyd from a size standpoint. It's always been quite a reach to match either of these two fighters with Floyd. You have to consider where each of these fighters came from in terms of weight.

[Rantcatrat]

Good thread.

Rant, I would put asterisks on Winky and Sergio. Regardless of the fact that jumping many weight classes is all the rage now.... if you look strictly at natural weights and size.... these fighters IMO have never been an easy fit with Floyd from a size standpoint. It's always been quite a reach to match either of these two fighters with Floyd. You have to consider where each of these fighters came from in terms of weight.

Thank you, sir. My point really isn't that there aren't reasons behind Floyd not facing the above guys, but only that he didn't face them. It hurts his legacy, regardless of how we speculate what the outcomes would be. Was Floyd's career-defining win Diego Corrales? Is this his best win? Or was it the Castillo rematch? If Diego Corrales was his best win, how does that compare to say, Roberto Duran's best win? Sugar Ray Robinson's best win? Ali's best win? Ike Williams' best win? Greb's best win?

[Violent Demise]

Gentlemen, and especially fans of Floyd Mayweather Jr.,

I have a couple of questions for you. In prepartion for the big Mayweather fight this weekend, I read a few articles from respected websites on the man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Check Doug Fisher's mailbag this week on the Ring Magazine's Website for an example. The articles suggest that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has left a number of meaningful fights on the table in his career. Some of the missed fights were from when he was promoted by Bob Arum, and others from his post-Arum era. There are probably very good reasons why he didn't engage in bouts with the guys below during his rise to the top of the p4p list. Of course, they still didn't happen. Will people educate me on why each of these fights didn't get made?

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
Miguel Cotto (2007-200
Paul Williams (200
Winky Wright (2009)
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Sergio Martinez (2012)

At that time Freitas was only known to hardcore fans. By the time he started fighting regularly in the US Mayweather had moved up to Lightweight. Casamayor-Mayweather was a fight that should of happened. Have no idea why it wasn't. Mayweather-Johnson was being discussed. But Johnson lost to Jose Luis Castillo. Mayweather fought Castillo instead. Mayweather-Harris never happened cuz Harris was overrated and there was no point in fighting him. Harris confirmed that by losing to Carlos Maussa. Mayweather-Tszyu I believe was a HBO/Show Time issue. Mayweather was an HBO regular. Tszyu a Show Time regular. Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight. Williams and Wright I don't think were ever visible fights. The rest are common knowledge

[TitoFan]

Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight.

Then there's this point of view.

Great Fight! Mayweather To Battle Cotto, The Man He Avoided in 2008


Just saying.

[Violent Demise]

Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight.

Then there's this point of view.

Great Fight! Mayweather To Battle Cotto, The Man He Avoided in 2008


Just saying.

I don't really care others opinion. But you obviously do

The undeniable truth of facts: Mayweather-Cotto

Top Rank Protected Cotto From Me

[TitoFan]

Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight.

Then there's this point of view.

Great Fight! Mayweather To Battle Cotto, The Man He Avoided in 2008


Just saying.

I don't really care others opinion. But you obviously do

The undeniable truth of facts: Mayweather-Cotto

Top Rank Protected Cotto From Me

Oh really?

I post a link and that's "me caring about others' opinion"..... whereas you post a link and you don't care about others' opinion?
Newsflash, pea-brain: Most articles ARE someone else's opinion.

Oh... wait... I know what threw you off.
One of your articles has the words "truth" and "facts" in the title. Therefore, it must be the (cough) truth.
The other one was authored by Floyd himself. Well then, of course it's true.

Dope.
Once again, I've exposed your ignorance.



Do you read your own shit before you post it?

[Beanflicker]

There are people who actually think Floyd ISN'T a top 25 of all time fighter? Jesus Christ.

If you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, please identify yourself now. I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to know for future reference so I don't waste my time reading your posts.

[imp]

How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?

Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.

The same thing can be said for floyd.

Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.

[Rantcatrat]

How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?

Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.

The same thing can be said for floyd.

Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.

Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?

However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard. Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course.

By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?

[Violent Demise]

How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?

Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.

The same thing can be said for floyd.

Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.

Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?

However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard. Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course.

By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?

Was there an opponent available that was on Leonard's level for Mayweather to beat?

And beating Jose Luis Castillo is actually better than beating Pipino Cuevas

[Rantcatrat]

How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?

Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.

The same thing can be said for floyd.

Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.

Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?

However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard. Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course.

By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?

Was there an opponent available that was on Leonard's level for Mayweather to beat?

And beating Jose Luis Castillo is actually better than beating Pipino Cuevas

I'm not disagreeing with you there. It's actually my whole point. It's tough to compare Mayweather to someone like Duran when he never faced anyone on the level of the guys Duran faced. It's not his fault. It's not Wladimir Klitschko's fault either that there aren't any Ken Norton's, Sonny Liston's, George Foreman's, or Joe Frazier's.

Unfortunately, for Floyd and Wlad, the welterweight division and the heavyweight division haven't been exceptionally deep during their reigns, so they didn't get a chance to test their mettle against great fighters. The result though is that we can't rank them above the greats who we know faced other greats.

One more point is about the risks Duran took, which Floyd hasn't taken, even though Duran came out in defeat. Duran is a guy who started at lightweight and was 5'7. He's not all that different physically than Floyd, at the very least he's comparable in size. Yet, Duran fought Marvelous freaking Hagler at middleweight. He lost, but fighting Marvelous Hagler, for a guy who started at lightweight, is an unholy risk to take. It's riskier than Floyd fighting Sergio Martinez right now at middlweight. and Floyd won't even face him at junior middleweight.

On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.

[Beanflicker]

On a side note, there might even be an argument that Duran's performance against Hagler is greater than any Floyd performance, simply when you take into account, the weight jump, the risk, and all that. Don't forget Duran won many rounds against Hagler.

Haha, I'd love to hear that argument.

Who did Hagler beat, btw?

[IamInuit]

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-200
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (200
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?

Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.

[Violent Demise]

Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Not sure who the writer is but the logic is flawed. Where Freitas and Casamayor are concerned it was because of timing more then anything else. Acelino was not known and Floyd was on his way to the Arum break away. In addition Orgs were well on their way of using the calendar in order to ensure certain fights could not happen and especially unifications. Much like they do now. I don’t think the Johnson fight was even thought about and Castillo had already beaten him. And imagine the style matchup. It would have been about as enjoyable as Byrd/Jones in their prime. I’d have to hit myself in the head with a ballpeen hammer just to watch it. The fight I wanted in that time frame that had a short window was Shane/Floyd. That would have been something in the 130/35 area.
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Who names their son Vivian? At any rate he was another hype job with a punch with the boxing skills of a log and had not done squat to meet Floyd. Chin like fly paper.
Zu was a matter of politics with conflicting broadcasters and no fault of either man. I wonder if the writer made the same notation on his view of Zu’s legacy.
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
In case anyone was not paying attention this is where the depth of Arum and Floyds hatred of each other gathered its own taste. How many Arum fighters has Floyd clashed with since he told him to go play in the traffic?
Miguel Cotto (2007-200
Cotto and his team have went public saying more or less that they were not ready for him and I suppose I could g get the quotes if need be. Floyd had to wait on Cotto to be a free agent.
Paul Williams (200
In 2008 Williams split with Quintana who was a borderline gate keeper and then moved to 160 pounds. Sure he beat Margarito a year previous but that’s it.
Winky Wright (2009)
You have got to be kidding me? Not only was Winky washed up in 2009 but he would have never even been a mention. He was out of Floyds weight class for almost a decade.
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Not going to beat the dead horse. They are both categorically insane for not doing it.
Sergio Martinez (2012)
How does a natural welter duck a natural middle?

Look forward to the response my friend. I think Floyds problem from a historians standpoint will be the time off. Smart sob from an economic standpoint cause he could have eliminated the crew he is about to cash in on.

You wrote that? That's actually pretty much on point. I agree with it