Juan Manuel Marquez Tells Pacquiao To His Face Floyd Would Kick His Ass On ESPN First

[imp]

If I may ask a question to you all:

Let's say Mayweather fights Manny and win. Would this mean that he is the better or that his style suits him better to deal with an aggressive opponent? Styles do make fights. Frazier wasn't the greatest but he beat Ali.

I think it would of course be a mark of pride if one wins over the other but to say that the victor is superior wouldn't quite reflect the realities of boxing. Chavez was a damn great boxer but sweet pete spanked him, it takes nothing away from him.

Pac could have made it interesting a couple of years ago but now he would be countered silly by Floyd. Shame.

It is a shame. But the same result would have prevailed.

Floyd and manny can fight till there 40!

Thats two fights a year and millions in the bank..they wont make that money anywhere else.

Manny wont last that long as he has no plan b in the ring..he cant adapt.

[christianshreve]

Outstanding question. Frazier was able to outwork Ali when Muhammad stopped moving. Ali was a runner, as a style, and Smokin' Joe fits the definition of what legendary trainer Kenny Weldon call a "fighter," meaning a pressure guy with good coordination between hands and feet who can force most movers out of their own rhythm over time.
Marquez is a stationary counter-fighter, while Floyd is a mobile counter fighter. All counter fighters are made to pick apart aggressive onrushing fighters.
In the book Money Boxing that comes out this week, style are broken down into a simple comparison of the child's game paper-rock-scissors.
In the book, a mobile counterpuncher beats a stationary one, which is what happened in the Mayweather-Marquez fight.
Mayweather likes to control distance and space, as his style dictates.
The tactical problem comes in when he is facing an opponent who advances faster than he is capable of retreating. Things get messy when that happens, style advantage or no.

[imp]

The thing about pac is that you cant dislike him as a person.

Floyd can divide opinions..

Lets look at the advantages and disadvatages of each fighter:-

Pac:-

More powerful

Same speed?
Same stamina?

Floyd:-

Better defensive
Better boxer
Better accuracy
Better chin
Better reach
Better footwork
Better reflexes
Better resistance to cuts

Same speed?
Same stamina?

Without even being too biased to floyd this was easy.

Please dicuss.

Dont go quiet on me rantcatrat.

[imp]

Also, whether pac took peds or not the size of his head has increased by at least a fifth which is another disadvantage for floyd to exploit

[Beanflicker]

The whole "common opponent" thing really means nothing. Pac and Mayweather are different fighters. Manny is going to be more aggressive and KO more people. It is what it is.
You can't go by the old "A>B, C>A, so C>B" theory. Compare the common opponents of Ali and George Foreman in the same way, and you'd conclude that Ali wouldn't have made it past 2 rounds with George.

Styles make fights, and the thing that was the most telling for me was how Manny got outfoxed by Morales the first time and JMM. The things that these guy's used to give Manny fits, Floyd has and does better than both of them combined. Manny has a puncher's chance for sure, but conventional wisdom (IMO) always suggested that Floyd would be victorious.

But this is all academic at this point imo, because Floyd vs Manny will go down as one of boxing's biggest flubs. They blew the opportunity already. Back in 2009/early 2010, Manny looking like an unstoppable punching machine. Floyd looked as sharp and quick as ever.

Now, Manny has been beaten and looked lackluster in recent efforts. Whether or not you think Bradley won, you have to admit that Pac didn't look like a world beater by any stretch. And he got another gift against poor JMM. You even got Pac talking about retirement in the near future.

As far as Floyd goes, I think you can see that he is on the decline. His legs aren't what they used to be, and he's getting hit a lot more in recent fights. He's getting up there in age.

They had the opportunity to do this when both guys were peaking, where the hype was SO BIG that the winner would have an argument for the greatest of all time. It's still an interesting fight but it's lost a ton of luster.

[IamInuit]

The whole "common opponent" thing really means nothing. Pac and Mayweather are different fighters. Manny is going to be more aggressive and KO more people. It is what it is.
You can't go by the old "A>B, C>A, so C>B" theory. Compare the common opponents of Ali and George Foreman in the same way, and you'd conclude that Ali wouldn't have made it past 2 rounds with George.

Styles make fights, and the thing that was the most telling for me was how Manny got outfoxed by Morales the first time and JMM. The things that these guy's used to give Manny fits, Floyd has and does better than both of them combined. Manny has a puncher's chance for sure, but conventional wisdom (IMO) always suggested that Floyd would be victorious.

But this is all academic at this point imo, because Floyd vs Manny will go down as one of boxing's biggest flubs. They blew the opportunity already. Back in 2009/early 2010, Manny looking like an unstoppable punching machine. Floyd looked as sharp and quick as ever.

Now, Manny has been beaten and looked lackluster in recent efforts. Whether or not you think Bradley won, you have to admit that Pac didn't look like a world beater by any stretch. And he got another gift against poor JMM. You even got Pac talking about retirement in the near future.

As far as Floyd goes, I think you can see that he is on the decline. His legs aren't what they used to be, and he's getting hit a lot more in recent fights. He's getting up there in age.

They had the opportunity to do this when both guys were peaking, where the hype was SO BIG that the winner would have an argument for the greatest of all time. It's still an interesting fight but it's lost a ton of luster.

Great post.

[christianshreve]

For the rest of his life Floyd will have to deal with having caught the same fear factor virus that Roy Jones dealt with against Dariusz Michalczewski--he found a guy who spooked him and said no. Manny scared him into being unavailable. Whether or not we believe Floyd would have neutralized the combination machine that has been the pacman, Floyd was too scared to find out. Floyd could have been given the edge in every category, but he didn't think he could win, and the boxing fans could just suffer.
At his highest level, the most gifted froze like a 2nd grader at the edge of the local pool high dive. "No thanks, mister, I'm coming back down the ladder. Not because I'm scared of the dive, no sir. It's just that I've pooped my pants."
Mayweather's fear of Manny is phobic, and that means it is irrational as an elephant being scared of a mouse. Phobia's aren't rational, and we should let go of the fight and enjoy Pretty Boy Floyd's remaining excellence, even if he didn't overcome all of his personal demons. Hell, does anyone?

[IamInuit]

For the rest of his life Floyd will have to deal with having caught the same fear factor virus that Roy Jones dealt with against Dariusz Michalczewski--he found a guy who spooked him and said no. Manny scared him into being unavailable. Whether or not we believe Floyd would have neutralized the combination machine that has been the pacman, Floyd was too scared to find out. Floyd could have been given the edge in every category, but he didn't think he could win, and the boxing fans could just suffer.
At his highest level, the most gifted froze like a 2nd grader at the edge of the local pool high dive. "No thanks, mister, I'm coming back down the ladder. Not because I'm scared of the dive, no sir. It's just that I've pooped my pants."
Mayweather's fear of Manny is phobic, and that means it is irrational as an elephant being scared of a mouse. Phobia's aren't rational, and we should let go of the fight and enjoy Pretty Boy Floyd's remaining excellence, even if he didn't overcome all of his personal demons. Hell, does anyone?

Another winner. You speak of style making fights and talk about movement in relationship to a one dimensional attack in this dead horse fight but I think you must have pasted that from some yahoo answers page.

Marquez cant fight off the back foot and he has so far countered him to shit in three controversial fights landing right hands almost at will and he's slow compared to Mayweather with less options with that hand.

Add to that Floyds ability to fight and land meaningful punches while in reverse and Manny is in trouble. That is at a time when the fight made sense/cents. Its pretty much irrelevant now and as beanflicker says perhaps one of the biggest blunders in history.

[imp]

For the rest of his life Floyd will have to deal with having caught the same fear factor virus that Roy Jones dealt with against Dariusz Michalczewski--he found a guy who spooked him and said no. Manny scared him into being unavailable. Whether or not we believe Floyd would have neutralized the combination machine that has been the pacman, Floyd was too scared to find out. Floyd could have been given the edge in every category, but he didn't think he could win, and the boxing fans could just suffer.
At his highest level, the most gifted froze like a 2nd grader at the edge of the local pool high dive. "No thanks, mister, I'm coming back down the ladder. Not because I'm scared of the dive, no sir. It's just that I've pooped my pants."
Mayweather's fear of Manny is phobic, and that means it is irrational as an elephant being scared of a mouse. Phobia's aren't rational, and we should let go of the fight and enjoy Pretty Boy Floyd's remaining excellence, even if he didn't overcome all of his personal demons. Hell, does anyone?

Nah. Takes two to tango.

Roy jones was the kingpin and Dariusz Michalczewski should have got his ass out of germany and took the fight with roy in america where he would have got paid twice as much!

Floyd is the same kingpin of era. Its not his fault that manny and arum cant agree a price for this fight to happen.. Theres so much behind the scenes we dont know about but its just easier to call floyd scared or not maximising his potential.

[Beanflicker]

Agreed. ^ That's one thing that really baffles me. Roy was the undisputed #1 in the division, the #1 p4p in boxing. Who was Dariusz outside of Germany? If you want to be the best, you have to come fight the best. It made no sense for Roy to go over to Germany and risk getting robbed.

[Fenster]

Michalczewski was the lineal champ, the true champ, so Roy should have travelled to him. Why should the champ risk getting robbed in America?

[christianshreve]

No one can can doubt Floyd's ability to counter going forward or back.
If he hadn't hid from Manny he would be in Pernell Whitaker's class historically as well as physically.
Mayweather may not swing the counter right hard, but that straight pop makes everyone have to reset after he lands it.
As to Roy Jones, it does appear to have become common knowledge that Jones, with all his startling gifts, would have indeed moved to the moon rather than face Dariusz Michalczewski.
Can you imagine the Packers not showing up to the stadium one Sunday so they could avoid the Bears?
Unlikely, but some of our most gifted fist fighters think this a viable operating procedure.

[christianshreve]

I'm not opposed to disagreement on any point, and I'm not pasting Yahoo pages. This thread contains educated posters with compelling points. Forums like this enable people to enhance understanding.

[Beanflicker]

Michalczewski was the lineal champ, the true champ, so Roy should have travelled to him. Why should the champ risk getting robbed in America?

Was Mariusz ranked higher than RJJ? The fighter makes the belt, not the other way around.

Roy was the undisputed #1 p4p. Roy was the big name of the two(figuratively, not literally obviously). As such, people should be coming for you, not the other way around.

I'm a Tiger fan for sure, but he would have gotten obliterated by Roy Jones of the late 90s/early 2000s.

[DavilaJones]

My point had nothing to do with the triangle theory in boxing. I merely asked what is the big deal if one loses to the other? No one can say "he's exposed as a phony" that's ridiculous and because of fans like that most boxers are so damn hesitant to take on challenges.

If one loses to the other, they'll still be a first ballot hall of famer. They'll still be considered one of the best fighters in this era. So really it will just be a point of bragging rights between the two and not the cataclysmal ending of careers and legacy that most people believed it to be.

Cotto vs Mayweather. Cotto lost absolutely nothing losing in that fight. He gained respect and adulation if anything. Did Oscar lose anything losing to Pacquiao? In my opinion he did not. So why is there so much built up, feigned or otherwise stake for the winner and loser of this 'super fight'?

I would personally applaude them both for fighting each other the same way I respect Carl Froch and Andre ward for fighting everyone under the sun in their division.