Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

[Beanflicker]

That's cool, I've never ever gone after anyone for thinking Floyd is a piece of shit, or thinking that his fights are boring.

I think too often people hold him up to unfair standards, both when compared to current greats like Pac and past greats.

When people say crazy shit like Pacquiao will go down as the superior fighter, I've just got to smh haha.

Floyd is a special talent, a top 5 of all time guy, and it'll probably be several decades after Floyd is gone that his in-ring talent is truly appreciated fully. Personally, I think it comes down to him and Sugar Ray Robinson. He really was that great.

[mikeeod]

That's cool, I've never ever gone after anyone for thinking Floyd is a piece of shit, or thinking that his fights are boring.

I think too often people hold him up to unfair standards, both when compared to current greats like Pac and past greats.

When people say crazy shit like Pacquiao will go down as the superior fighter, I've just got to smh haha.

Floyd is a special talent, a top 5 of all time guy, and it'll probably be several decades after Floyd is gone that his in-ring talent is truly appreciated fully. Personally, I think it comes down to him and Sugar Ray Robinson. He really was that great.

Wow. Top 5, huh? Him and SRR? Wow. You are definitely entitled to your opinion. I don't think you will have to wait decades for his in ring talent to be appreciated, I think most appreciate it now. I think it will take more than several decades for very many, if any, serious historians rank Floyd as high as you do. Guy just doesn't have the accomplishments. This is where Floyd fans lose credibility in their arguments. No way in Hell wins over Chico, Castillo, Hatton and Mosely put him that high. No way. Anyways, he's definitely lucky to have you as such a big fan...

[Beanflicker]

Guy just doesn't have the accomplishments. This is where Floyd fans lose credibility in their arguments. No way in Hell wins over Chico, Castillo, Hatton and Mosely put him that high.

Well here's where the discussion gets a bit more interesting and I find that the double standards start to pop up, and I'm more than happy to go down this road.

Let's take 5 greats from the past (long past, distant past) and we'll throw in Floyd. I'll go with 5 guys who usually end up in most top 10 ATG lists.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Hank Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Roberto Duran
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Floyd Mayweather

Six guys, six ATG's, all A+ quality.

I'd like for someone - anyone - to explain to me what these guys did that puts them above Mayweather in the two categories that matter: 1) In-ring ability and 2) Accomplishment (quality of opposition beat, title's won/defended, ect).

All of those guys, with the exception of Willie Pep obviously, probably hit harder than Floyd. SRR carried his power up to higher weights like nobody else in the history of boxing. Armstrong didn't have big one-punch power from what I've seen but he was a fantastic volume puncher. Duran was Hands of Stone, Leonard could punch respectfully with both hands, ect. All guys were obviously not as effective in terms of power punching at the higher weights. Floyd was a good puncher at 130-135 (31-0 with 21 KOs, 13-0 in title fights with 7 KOs), but not on the level of those guys for certain.

So besides power, which we will give the advantage to all of those guys except Pep, what did they do that puts them out of reach of Floyd? Let's break it down and try to quantify it.

[mikeeod]

Guy just doesn't have the accomplishments. This is where Floyd fans lose credibility in their arguments. No way in Hell wins over Chico, Castillo, Hatton and Mosely put him that high.

Well here's where the discussion gets a bit more interesting and I find that the double standards start to pop up, and I'm more than happy to go down this road.

Let's take 5 greats from the past (long past, distant past) and we'll throw in Floyd. I'll go with 5 guys who usually end up in most top 10 ATG lists.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Hank Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Roberto Duran
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Floyd Mayweather

Six guys, six ATG's, all A+ quality.

I'd like for someone - anyone - to explain to me what these guys did that puts them above Mayweather in the two categories that matter: 1) In-ring ability and 2) Accomplishment (quality of opposition beat, title's won/defended, ect).

All of those guys, with the exception of Willie Pep obviously, probably hit harder than Floyd. SRR carried his power up to higher weights like nobody else in the history of boxing. Armstrong didn't have big one-punch power from what I've seen but he was a fantastic volume puncher. Duran was Hands of Stone, Leonard could punch respectfully with both hands, ect. All guys were obviously not as effective in terms of power punching at the higher weights. Floyd was a good puncher at 130-135 (31-0 with 21 KOs, 13-0 in title fights with 7 KOs), but not on the level of those guys for certain.

So besides power, which we will give the advantage to all of those guys except Pep, what did they do that puts them out of reach of Floyd? Let's break it down and try to quantify it.

That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.

[ruthless rocco]

Armstrong's run of 20 WW defenses in one year has him fighting 8 guys with over 20 losses, 4 of them had over 38 loses.
He fought Lou Ambers twice in that time and KO'd him both times.
Lou Feldman(95-38-15) gets two fights in that same time frame losing by KO5 and KO1.
He fought Bobby Pacho(75-48-15) twice in that time and KO'd him in round 4 both times; Pacho had won only 1 of his last 7 fights.
Howard Scott(61-38-10) had won only 1 of his previous 10 fights!

Today's fighters aren't allowed to hold titles in more than one weight division. Mayweather is a prime example of a contemporary fighter who fights in multiple weight classes at once. He moves up and down depending on the fights and paydays he can secure himself. If he were allowed to hold belts at multiple weights he would be doing so.

[Master]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

[SlimTrae]

I try to deal only with Floyd the boxer, not the person, but I gotta take a swing at the bankrupt comment.

When I lived in Atlanta, Holyfield was at the top of his game- and made some pretty good investments (so it seemed)-- from his own car dealership to helping the creation of an olympic center (I left before he finished it..,if he did.)

While he did buy a mansion the size of a shopping mall, he wasn't a wild spender across the board- even adding on the 8,9 or 22 kids he has, that didn't bankrupt him, alone.

My point is: Floyd makes investments in what? Making it rain in the strip clubs? I can only make it drizzle, but if I could make it rain, for what?

He buys cars & Jewlery, like normal people buys socks and drawz. Cars that I can only imagine him selling them off, when the IRS will do to him what they did to Holyfield, Ali back to Joe Louis.
Does he even donate to the right sources so he can deduct it come tax time?

Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Holmes & the great Walter Payton are examples of how Floyd can keep his loot & maintain a lavish lifestyle- - those guys invested in themselves and in land (property)-and not in the strip clubs or stock market or the hot thing of the day; google or some shit like that..

Only an opinion, but PBF will definately have money issues within 5 years of his retirement. He's too materialistic not to.

As far as PBF the boxer: Damn; 18 years and every style imagineable-he has faced & defeated.

Agreed with pretty much everything in your post until your last comment. Overall great post. Would just ask: what tall, rangy boxer puncher like Hearns or Vernon Forrest did Floyd beat? That is the one style I'm sure would give him fits. .

What?! R U kidding me? What tall rangy fighter did he fight? He fought Paul Wil... Uh, okay he fought Antonio Marga...
Okay, looks like we have the same thinking when it comes to saying for whatever reasons...he chose NOT to fight PW & AM @ WW, when they were winning.
Maybe a blemish free record means more to thim than fighting the best...whenever.

[mikeeod]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

[Master]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.

Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.

[mikeeod]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.

Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.

Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.

[SlimTrae]

Whenever I read of todays fighters vs yesteryear, there IMO is usually a lopsided argument.

Guys like Floyd are scrutinized with a meticulous microscopic glass; but when we look at guys like SRR to Ali, serious; how many different styles were there for them to go up against?

Clay/Ali fought Patterson (But he was a CW @ best and on the downside was he not?)
Cleveland Williams-- but wasn't this after serious medical issues from Williams & on the downside?
Frazier never fought more than 40 times & retired- bounced like a ball by Foreman, so what made Frazier great? It damn sure wasn't longevity.
Norton? Dude won the title by vacancy and lost it to Ali's sparring partner in his first defence. He won a Spit decison with Cobb? really? and got his azz KO'd by Shavers & Cooney.
Foreman was in a death match with Ron Lyle (we enjoyed it,) but was that really an accomplishment? or just a good ass fight for us fans to remember? Jimmy Young outboxed him, dropped him:he quit. Forman saw the lord so he quit!

Yet history makes it seem like who Ali fought was great with (oh back in the day the greats all fought each other..)
Well there wasn't PPV- closed circuit hadn't come out, if it did, do we really expect they would have been different than today's fighters?

[SlimTrae]

Pt II

Ray leonared: in a dead tie with Benitez. He had to turn in a dog fight to win that. So then he goes after Duran in 1980... Ray lost his first title shot to a guy who didn't have a title.
Had been fighting since 1968 and his best days was at LW. Had Floyd lost his 1st title fight to Hernandez; wouldn't we be all over him about that?

Thomas Hearns who got beat by Pryor in the amatuers, outboxed Ray! Up on the scorecard and turned his eye a grayish color; Hearns was a KO artist..and outboxing Ray? Once again the dog came out and he stopped Hearns- not a round too soon. 2 more fights and Ray retired due to what he claimed were retina issues. So at this point what made SRL great?
Pryor challenged him- he moved UP in weight.
Great comeback fight against Haglar-when he felt Haglar was vulnerable after watching him goe to toe with Mugabi. & everybody started whoopin' Mugabi's ass after that. Even Duran took Haglar the distance. Duran was loooonnggg past his best days when he was a beast at LW.

Ray then got outboxed by Lalonde, so he had to break out a fight. Has another bout with a fat-chaloopa of Duran. Then an utter Bullshit draw with Hearns. Terry Norris whooped him all night long & Camacho stopped him damn.

Yet I hear how Ray would have outboxed Floyd. How? Duran may have said no mas & quit 2nd fight, but he damn sure wasnt out of the fight. So who did Ray (OUTBOX)?
The book called In the Corner- details the Petronelli brothers saying their man Haglar gave away the 1st 4 rounds and had to be motiviated to take the fight. And that's not negotiating on Ray's part? Negotiating the way we point out Floyd's? I agree, concede FLoyd is shrewd, but SRR wasn't? SRL wasn't?

SRR- didnt he say he was too pretty to fight Burley? Only fought Gavilan a 2nd time because spectators claimed he lost the 1st one..then went on to fight Ragin Bulls 5 times? why?
Seems like that black man didn't want to fight his own brothers, so where was the various styles he took on? He fought white guys who were straight ahead brawlers, flatfooted, powerful & predictable.

Floyd's competition over the years has been more versatile than anyone I can think of, but I do concede he wanted nothing to do with the long rangy PW or AM...while Pacman's competition once again seemed dominated by contractual obligations of catchweights.

Final note RIP Manny Steward- I sat front seat at the Canastota Boxing Hall of fame when he said: Ray Robinson's handlers didn't want him fighting rangy fighters with jabs, thats why he had so many fights with the same people-especially toward the end of his career.

[SlimTrae]

last one: With Murad Muhhamad I think Pac would have taken on all comers, but with Arum it was more strategic to inhouse.

[Master]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.

Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.

Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.

Shame on you for posting such a thing. I will not go into Oscar who had the bottle to take on all comers and Tito who had brutal power at 2 weights but Jones was the man and even you know that Benn, Eubank, Dariusz and others did not stand a chance.

[mikeeod]

Floyd Mayweather is not greater than Leonard, Duran, Whitaker, Hearns, Roy Jones from the modern era.

I have to respectfully disagree with Hearns and Roy Jones. For me Roy is behind Floyd, Manny, Hop, Tito, Evander, Hagler and the others you named.

Hearns won titles at multiple weights and entertained.

Roy Jones dominated 3 weights (beating Hopkins and Toney) and won a title at heavy.

Never cleaned out one weight he was in and Toney was the only p4p ranked guy he beat. While I give Floyd credit for his comp, Roy is the epitome of a guy who missed most of his significant threats. He had a great career and was a phenom, but his level of competition was a joke. I place Oscar and Tito above him historically.

Shame on you for posting such a thing. I will not go into Oscar who had the bottle to take on all comers and Tito who had brutal power at 2 weights but Jones was the man and even you know that Benn, Eubank, Dariusz and others did not stand a chance.

Any pro fighter has a chance. I was sure G-Man would destroy Benn. I was certain that Tyson was going to chew Douglas up and spit him out. I had no doubt that Leonard would leave the ring on a stretcher after fighting Hagler ( thought he lost that one, but was still shocked to see him last the distance). Roy was a phenom and on his best night I think he is even money with anyone in history. Still have to prove it in the ring...