Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

[Fenster]

Exactly. It wont be long before these Floyd fans will be rolling their eyes at kids claiming the new current "star" is the best ever.

[mikeeod]

That's two different discussions you are having. Accomplishments and historical standing is separate from head to head match ups and who people "think" was the better overall fighter. Those discussions of "who is better r completely subjective, and they rarely account for style match ups...etc. I will explain how I think those guys you named break out from Floyd in each way though.
1) Accomplishments: This is where it isn't even debatable for me. Floyd never ducked anyone, I know, bathe hasn't beaten the ATGs, HOFers...etc., that those top 5 did. Maybe Pep is debatable, but I don't have Willie in my top 5, I have Ali instead. Floyd has NEVER "slain the dragon". Think Duran jumping to WW n beating the prime Leonard. Think Leonard beating Duran, Hearns n then the complete monster in Hagler. Floyd never beat the sheer number of ATG/HOFers that SRR, and rarely in such spectacular fashion. As impressive as retiring undefeated is (Ricardo Lopez, Joe C n Marciano), Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding 3 of 8 (should've been 4 of 8 but he was robbed vs Garcia) world titles available, defending the WW title over 20 times in a year with most of those being stoppages and beating a good number of ATG/HOF fighters along the way is more impressive. While Floyd is popular and transcends boxing, he is nowhere near the icon Ali was and has NEVER produced historical fights or comebacks like Ali and Leonard did. So, for accomplishments and historical ranking, I can't see a valid case to even have Floyd in the conversation.
2) Overall abilities: Tough to beat Floyd but for me he never showed the ability to hammer out a tough, brutal fight. He's never had to, so he very well may be able to, but I've never seen him beat an elite fighter by gutting it out. Maidana and Castillo were solid, but not JCC, Duran, Armstrong...etc., elite and they gave him fits. Jesus Chavez roughed Floyd up as did Hatton. So, in summary: I feel those guys have power, toughness and killer instinct that Floyd does not. Those guys all closed the show against elite opposition.

I find it strange the criteria changes so often in front of my face, like I'm the mark in a three card monte game.

I'll say "well Floyd has gone 18 years undefeated", people will say "well he ducked this guy, fought this guy at a different weight, this guy was no good... to summarize, his opponents were shitty."

I'll ask, "well why was Hank Armstrong so much better than Floyd", people will say "oh well he beat 20 guys in a month." (or whatever the fuck he did).

I'll say "well, were his opponents any good? I thought it was quality, not quantity, that mattered", people say "yeah, they were good."

I'll say "well, a lot of them had losing records or were very inexperienced", people say "yeah but there's no way Floyd could beat 20 guys in a month."

I'll say this too: I like how, when speaking of these guys, we bring up all the positives they did, but nobody ever brings up the shortcomings.

Take Duran: I'm supposed to believe that Duran was the superior fighter to Floyd. Duran went from lightweight to super middleweight and won a bunch of titles. Cool. Good for him. He also quit in the middle of a world championship fight because he had a stomach cramp. He also dropped decisions to several unheralded fighters like Laing and Robbie Sims. He also, after beating SRL in the first fight, came up short against all his best peers. How come these blaring shortcomings aren't considered when evaluating him?

I've heard "well, Duran's run at lightweight makes him the greatest alone"... yet how many people could name a guy he beat at LW other than Dejesus and Buchanan?

Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.

My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.

[ruthless rocco]

Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.

My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.

I can find someone close to prime Leonard on Mayweather's resume. It's Floyd Mayweather. He's the most agile, dexterous, skilled fighter of his weight classes and era. He doesn't have a Leonard to fight.

If Floyd were allowed to hold titles in three weight divisions at once he probably would but that's prohibited now. He has held titles in two weight divisions at the same time but has always been forced to give one up.

Floyd has beat ATG/HOFers and future HOFers as well... Oscar, Arturo, Shane? Canelo?, JMM?.

[Beanflicker]

Duran beat Leonard. You can't find anyone on Floyd's record/resume close to prime Leonard. Not even close. Duran also completely cleaned out lightweight. Completely cleaned it out and had only suffered one avenged loss prior to beating Leonard. Again, just off of that I rank him higher than Floyd.

My two main points for Armstrong are his beating ATG/HOFers and holding 3 of 8 available titles simultaneously. The defenses in one year was thrown in to show how busy he was. To ur point on quality of opposition: if Floyd averaged two fights a month he would get the benefit of the doubt, as long as he still fought the top guys along the way.

Again, you gave me one name (Leonard) and then you reverted right back to quantity over quality. How good was this division that Duran cleaned out? Can someone tell me?

On the ATG/HOF argument... it's disingenuous and inaccurate to present a HOF induction as a standard of quality that automatically puts a boxer above non-HOFers. Like anything, HOFs by nature are political and look more favorably on old timers and pioneers.

Example of some HOFers:

Sixto Escobar: 39-23
Battling Battalino: 57-26
Cinderella Man James Braddock: 46-24, famous upset of Baer
Young Corbett: 68-22
George Dixon: 50-26
Mysterious Billy Smith: 30-24
Pipino Cuevas: 35-15
Joey Maxim: 82-29 (of course, most famous for being dominated by SRR for 13 rounds before SRR collapsed from heat exhaustion)
Lew Jenkins: 70-39

Ect ect ect

Now all these guys were champs at some point and all were very capable fighters. But am I really to believe Mysterious Billy Smith was a more impressive win than, let's say, Ricky Hatton, simply because Smith is in the HOF and Hatton isn't? Or that James Braddock, a dirt poor club fighter who managed to pull off a huge upset and win the world title (only to lose it brutally in his next fight) is a higher quality opponent than, let's say, a David Haye?

[SlimTrae]

Interesting direction this thread has turned.
If Duran @ 5'7 (66 inch reach) is brought up as beating a prime leonard 5'10 (74 inch reach), then does that make Duran better than a (prime) Leonard?

When SRL won the rematch Nov 80' was Duran in his prime? Or did a (prime)Ray avenge a loss to an (out of prime) Duran?

What was SRL's prime? He turned pro in 77' - 82. One fight in 84. & was he still in his prime when he came back in 87? He went 3-3.


As for PBF- he fought a slick, fast south paw in Judah ( I think Benitez for SRL) was better than Judah, but IMO they compare as mobile fighters with speed & pop.

Castillo is no Duran, by a longshot, but PBF took on a bodypunching hombre for sure & had to take the title from Hernandez @ 5'11. It was no run fight, PBF stood and fought.

SRL 5'10 vs Hearns 6'1 w/71% KO ratio per boxrec -- SRL was down on all card till the KO
PBF @ 5'8 vs Corrales 5'10 1/2 w/73% KO ratio per boxrec-- PBF dropped Diego 5 times

SRL simply didn't fight long enough to merit a better resume than PBF. struggled with Benitez & Hearns to the end & He didn't clean out a single divison- Like Duran did. So are we now comparing Duran's competition to PBF's?

Since Pacquio never cleaned a division either -lost in almost every weight class he fought & had no top names from 95-03'- technically no (in prime)competition till 09' IMO.
...now JMM cleaned out the same divison as Duran.
So would it now change from PBF vs Pac comp to: JMM vs Duran's comp?

@ LW JMM beat linear champ Casamayor, the man who called out Pac (Juan Diaz) the other dude who called out Pac (Katsidis) This was after moving up from where he beat Gainer, Salido, Juarez & MAB.

One could argue that PBF's comp is better than Pac's, SRL's
& JMM's comp was better than Duran @ Fther & LW. Duran fought more @ LW, but also had more tomato can-fighters as well.

Head to Head: Duran vs JMM @ LW would be a dream fight. I'd edge Duran, but thats speculation. Factually? JMM & PBF has fought more quality and versatile competition- with PBF doing it 18 years; quantity and quality.

[Beanflicker]

I think for sure Floyd fought better opposition overall than SRL just by numbers.

I will say that I think SRL's win over Hagler was a better win than any of Floyd's wins.

[Master]

I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.

[SlimTrae]

I think for sure Floyd fought better opposition overall than SRL just by numbers.

I will say that I think SRL's win over Hagler was a better win than any of Floyd's wins.

Agreed.

Haglar is one of the greatest MW's of all time and to do it coming out of retirement is off the charts fabulous.

[SlimTrae]

I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.

I can't argue that, styles do make fights.

Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.

[Beanflicker]

For a guy with only 40 fights, Leonard packed a lot into his time in boxing.

IMO Leonard faced more adversity in his 40 fight career than a lot of old timers faced in their 200 fight careers.

[imp]

The money in this game now limits the output for fighters.

Theres no way of measuring if inactivity in todays era would go against yesterdays legends.

Floyd and pac fight a maximum of twice a year and I do accept it has to be that way now.

Leonard beat duran, hearns and hagler and is used to 15round fights and Im sure in his heyday he was fighting alot more than todays elite.

Leonard would give floyd problems in every way but floyd is a great adapter to any style..who knows what the hell would happen!

[SlimTrae]

The money in this game now limits the output for fighters.

I wish I could remember the fight. Haglar had just won and post fight interview he calls someone out and says this:

"I offered him 150 thousand dollars, now whose gonna turn down that kind of money."

[Master]

I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.

I can't argue that, styles do make fights.

Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.

I know you are playing devils advocate but I think Leonard got the eye injured against Hearns.

[SlimTrae]

I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.

I can't argue that, styles do make fights.

Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.

I know you are playing devils advocate but I think Leonard got the eye injured against Hearns.

Agreed. Didn't a boxer previous start the retina problems? I've read about it....awhile back.

[Master]

I do not like Leonard (or Floyd for that matter) but his victory over Hearns was what a great fighter is made of. He was fighting another great fighter who had huge power and was behind on the cards but he came back. I do not believe Floyd would have beaten that Hearns, but that is unfair of Floyd because that was not his best weight.

I can't argue that, styles do make fights.

Sorry to repeat- but I am playing the D-advocate. I prefer the era of Hearns-Haglar-Duran-SRL over the current one.

I know you are playing devils advocate but I think Leonard got the eye injured against Hearns.

Agreed. Didn't a boxer previous start the retina problems? I've read about it....awhile back.

His eye was seriously injured during the Hearns fight and was never put right until after he fought Hagler. What I am saying is Leonard could have avoided fighting such a dangerous challenge by making all sorts of demands to get out of the fight because his career was cut short because of it. Yet Sugar Ray did not and still does not claim to be the best ever.