HERO= Ali..........Dr Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, Abe Lincoln

[El Kabong]

Oh I'm sorry the popular thing to do is compare every violent situation to Vietnam....my bad


The reason Iraq is going poorly is because no one realizes that the Iraqi people are lazy pieces of shit and the only people working to accomplish a goal are the terrorists.


I'm not comparing the actual wars just the way Hollywood has changed, used to be very supportive of the US and US Government and then along came the McCarthy Trials and EVERYONE turned against the government...good at the time but they never came back to where the regular people are.

[Kev]

Oh I'm sorry the popular thing to do is compare every violent situation to Vietnam....my bad


The reason Iraq is going poorly is because no one realizes that the Iraqi people are lazy pieces of S*** and the only people working to accomplish a goal are the terrorists.


I'm not comparing the actual wars just the way Hollywood has changed, used to be very supportive of the US and US Government and then along came the McCarthy Trials and EVERYONE turned against the government...good at the time but they never came back to where the regular people are.

Have a Lyle, I'll back no matter what the haters think

[El Kabong]

Thanks Bilbo...you da man

[X]

no one realizes that the Iraqi people are lazy pieces of S*** and the only people working to accomplish a goal are the terrorists.

An interesting and rounded viewpoint, Lyle. It's a good job you are around to tell us these things.

How many Iraqis do you know, and how many of them that live in Iraq?

Or maybe it was a misprint and you meant IROQUIOS being lazy pieces of shit, because they were all alcoholic wasters (....... nothing to do with being invaded, having their freedom taken away and being occupied by a strange foreign power)

[Big_Deuce]

your right, the threat of getting gassed and lit up in flames at any point for farting the wrong tune is so much better
nevermind people being able to vote for more than one candidate now, or maybe even the supplies being given to iraq by other nations are actually given to the iraqi people instead of the to the sadamn Regime.

[X]

No, it wasn't better then for the Iraqis than now. They were tortured, imprisoned, killed and mistreated by ol' Saddam.

But they are still being tortured, imprisoned, killed and mistreated ...... but now it's by us.

So, that has not changed, but we have been bombed and attacked a couple of times since.

Therefore things are worse now.

I'm not trying to say everything was better before and try to say that cute bunny rabbits were everywhere in Baghdad or anything.

My point wasn't very political, only pointing out that I doubt all Iraqis (or even most) are lazy pieces of shit. That sounds like a rather silly attention-grabbing statement from a schoolboy (sorry, Lyle!)

[bigragu]

Oh I'm sorry the popular thing to do is compare every violent situation to Vietnam....my bad


The reason Iraq is going poorly is because no one realizes that the Iraqi people are lazy pieces of S*** and the only people working to accomplish a goal are the terrorists.


I'm not comparing the actual wars just the way Hollywood has changed, used to be very supportive of the US and US Government and then along came the McCarthy Trials and EVERYONE turned against the government...good at the time but they never came back to where the regular people are.

I say we should pull out of all the countries and turn our focus on the crack houses/Crimeriddled ares/Gang hangouts......why don't we clean up our own before sticking our noses elsewhere?...also if the citizens of Iraq want to live in a hovel F*CK EM...let them live like animals....Tired of helping people that don't want to help themselves.....

[Big_Deuce]

Oh I'm sorry the popular thing to do is compare every violent situation to Vietnam....my bad


The reason Iraq is going poorly is because no one realizes that the Iraqi people are lazy pieces of S*** and the only people working to accomplish a goal are the terrorists.


I'm not comparing the actual wars just the way Hollywood has changed, used to be very supportive of the US and US Government and then along came the McCarthy Trials and EVERYONE turned against the government...good at the time but they never came back to where the regular people are.

I say we should pull out of all the countries and turn our focus on the crack houses/Crimeriddled ares/Gang hangouts......why don't we clean up our own before sticking our noses elsewhere?...also if the citizens of Iraq want to live in a hovel F*CK EM...let them live like animals....Tired of helping people that don't want to help themselves.....

Hmmm And completely ignore foreign policy, yea that should work
you must of voted for billy clint.

[El Kabong]

Well Bill Clinton led his years by the polls...if people liked it, Billy did it.......problem was his solutions had no teeth so now we have the situation with North Korea because Kim Jong Il promised one thing but never kept his word and therefore has whatever the deal was between them it was never honored.

The United States HAS to step up in the world...the United Nations has NEVER done a goddamn thing to help....look what the did in Darfur!

The reason the UN never helps is because it's leaders are too nice which is why everyone agrees on them to begin with....what they have done with Israel and Palistine is horrible too. An Israli was kidnapped by Palistinians and the UN had footage of the kidnap because it happened right outside their building there and they gave it to the Palistinians but not Israel!

[NuthaPug]

Ali wasn't particularly political earlier on. He bragged about his Irish grandparents. When he visited Moscow and they asked him about racism in America, he replied that we have some very good people in Washington and they are doing a good job of dealing with it. Doesn't sound much like the Ali who was buddies with Malcom, does it?

Later, all hints of Irishness disappeared, and he became a black icon in ways that his earlier self coudn't have done.

That said, I was an anti-war hippy and still am. All respect to Ali for his own version of 'hell no we won't go.'


Poste Script: I was disappointed when he KO'd Sonny Liston. I had seen Sonny on Ed Sullivan, where he stood about twice as high as Ed, and he seemed like a nice guy, and Cassius was so brash. But Sonny would never have become the myth that Ali has become. Respect.

[NuthaPug]

yikes, I didn't realize the thread had taken the turn, and Ali was left far behind.

I thought US involvement in Vietnam was an unfortunate quagmire, and was dead set against it.

What we have done in Iraq is worse because we didn't get sucked in slow. We chose it eyes open and willfully full of lies. Stupidest thing possible. I think it probably forms a tipping point toward the decline of the west. Best get in our important boxing matches while we got the time.

Lyle - it's an over statement, what you said, and rude besides. I think it is the moderate Muslims who remain rather voiceless. They get all upset against westerners who dare write some clever but sacreligious cartoons ... all up in arms, and burning embassies, all around the world ... why don't they stand up against the radical muslims and say Hell no that is not the truth! More upset about a cartoon than a beheaded social worker.

That's what bothers me. I want to respect the religion ... for that to happen, the moderates need to show that they can beat the radicals down in the "truthing" department. Who really represents Islam? Those who bring death? Don't tell us that Islam is a religion of peace ... tell it to the muslim brothers who have the bloody machetes in their hands.

[Sugar_Shaw]

i agreed with what he did but a part of me wishes he would have opted for a stage-managed soloution so we could see him at the peak of his powers...but anyway ALI, ALI, ALI

[The_One77]

These men were all heros... For a reason... Ali is forgotten for what he's done for our society... He made a statement!

My father fought in Vietnam... Didn't just fight but was wounded in action twice. He is my hero. People like him have alowed our freedom for many years.

I served for 4 years in the military and 3 months in Iraq(not in a very hostile area, outside of Mosel... a small town) I din't serve like my father. he got 2 purple hearts in Vietnam... He is a hero. Mine anyway. But I digress. My point is this-

Ali was told to go to war-

My father calls him a coward cuz he didn't go!

I disagree....

He became a deeply religous man.(not an excuse... keep readin) He did not dodge the draft... He didn't do anything but due what he beleaved in. How can you not respect that. He served jail time. He fought his war here. (this comes from a Vet) I will never fault him for that. Go to war... Or go to jail! He did the latter... He showed that we all have a choice. We do not have to be robots, although I would nt have chosehis path. I think him a hero in 2 ways-1. He stood up for his religion and what he believed in... 2- He was one of the best P4P's of all time... And his life story is one for the books... Live well Ali!

Ben Franklin said "It is our duty to question our government!!!! It is our right!

dude, what are you on?
The guy didnt even go to jail, all he did was lose the crown for a couple of years.....certainly better than gettin blown up in war

[El Kabong]

Lyle - it's an over statement, what you said, and rude besides. I think it is the moderate Muslims who remain rather voiceless. They get all upset against westerners who dare write some clever but sacreligious cartoons ... all up in arms, and burning embassies, all around the world ... why don't they stand up against the radical muslims and say Hell no that is not the truth! More upset about a cartoon than a beheaded social worker.

That's what bothers me. I want to respect the religion ... for that to happen, the moderates need to show that they can beat the radicals down in the "truthing" department. Who really represents Islam? Those who bring death? Don't tell us that Islam is a religion of peace ... tell it to the muslim brothers who have the bloody machetes in their hands.

How is what I posted "rude" or an "over statement"?

The Clinton Administration did a good job of keeping everyone in the dark as to what or why he did what he did with foreign policy. He was able to draw attention to himself and away from some mistakes he probably made...but he was a decent president.

I know muslims who don't go out blowing shit up, I know there are moderate muslims, etc....Where the fuck are they over in Iran and Iraq and Saudi Arabia

It's not so much the religion but the CULTURE that fucks things up...things that are done over there have been done since the dawn of time.

You know of any Christian martyrs in history?....I know of a couple and they didn't go down swinging, they turned the other cheek and let their persecuters do their worst.

Then again the Catholic church did some evil stuff, but I think we can look back on this terror and compare it to the Inquisition.

[X]

I like your political spoutings, Lyle (but don't always agree)

It's an overstatement because we fall into the trap of tainting the silent majority with the actions of the overly-violent or loud minority. There are many moderates out there, but they face persecution and violence if they say anything. The rule of law has totally broken down in Iraq.

Iran and Saudi are totally different places in different circumstances, so I am not sure we can legitimately draw them together to make a judgement?

I thought that things like this were definitely not happening over there since the dawn of time - I lived there, and there was no such thing as a fundamentalist muslim (at least that I ever saw or heard of anyway) until we started arming and training the Mujahideen to make 'holy war' on the USSR. That's where all these guys were created.

Also, there have been many many Christian Martyrs in history. Some did what you say, but most did not turn the other cheek. Christian wars of conquest and missionairies devastated China, the Polynesian islands, all of South America, much of Africa, Palestine and Israel etc etc etc.

A religious maniac is a religious maniac, whether he is a muslim, a christian or a hindu. Narrow minded self-righteous bigots. We have them in the UK, you have them in the US, and they do have them in Iraq too.