smoking joe... frazier

[Trainer Monkey]

1950's
In 1950, burdened by I.R.S. debt, he announced a comeback and was promptly given a chance to recover his title, but he lost a 15 round unanimous decision to world champion Ezzard Charles, who had won the title after Louis left it vacant. He kept boxing, and in his next fight he beat fringe contender Cesar Brion by a decision in 10. Seven more wins followed, including a rematch with Brion and a decision over fellow hall of famer Jimmy Bivins. In 1951, however, he would box what would be his final fight: In front of a national television audience, Louis lost by a knockout in eight rounds to the future world Heavyweight Champion, Rocky Marciano. Louis did not embarrass himself that night, but it was obvious his best years had gone by. He retired with a record of 68 wins and 3 losses, with 54 wins by a knockout.

Louis became a professional wrestler in 1956 but quit in 1957 due to injuries suffered during a match.

Louis faced a drug problem, a fact not too many people knew about but which was made public by a boxing book published by Ring Magazine, just as in Sugar Ray Robinson's case. But later on in life, he was able to kick his drug habit.

http://www.fameboxing.com/joe-louis.htm

[El Kabong]

...but you said he did heroin.....when in actuality he did cocaine

Your above statement suggest nothing AGAINST my statement

Joe Louis was one of the harder punching heavyweights in the history of the sport too....as was Marciano, I mean a 185 pounder KO-ing 190-200 pound fighters.


I know Joe Frazier is a great fighter, I just think it wouldn't be easy for him to beat Louis and Marciano....you seem to suggest that Marciano and Louis are frauds and they weren't as good as their records suggest.....and that I think is ridiculous

[Trainer Monkey]

...but you said he did heroin.....when in actuality he did cocaine

Your above statement suggest nothing AGAINST my statement

Joe Louis was one of the harder punching heavyweights in the history of the sport too....as was Marciano, I mean a 185 pounder KO-ing 190-200 pound fighters.


I know Joe Frazier is a great fighter, I just think it wouldn't be easy for him to beat Louis and Marciano....you seem to suggest that Marciano and Louis are frauds and they weren't as good as their records suggest.....and that I think is ridiculous

No,coke was later
At no point did I ever say that either fighters werent great.
I wish that Louis hadnt been forced to come back,so his record wouldnt be tainted.The Louis that came back,was clearly not the Brown Bomber.
I wish Marciano had actually fought in an era were he had serious competion,so we'd have a real gage of how good he was,same with Tyson.
Acknowledging the reality of the situation,is not the same as dissing the fighter

[VictorCharlie]

only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?

how would joe of done vs other greats

holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis

his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?

Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.

Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.

Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.

Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.

Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.

Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.

Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.

I like this list and results alot...I'd lend towards Joe beating Lewis if it was a 15 rounder, but not a 12 rounder. I think his constant pressure and blistering body shots would take its toll and end in a UD 8 rounds to 7 or a 14/15 round TKO.

[Trainer Monkey]

Joe Louis didn't do heroin he did cocaine....get your facts straight!!!!

And if you're putting Joe the crack head in vs a Prime Joe Frazier then YES Louis would lose but that ain't what we're doing here is it

No he did cocaine in the late 60's,wich of course youve allready stated definitivly e didnt,even though he did.
As far as what we're doing here,were compairing fighters from different era's that would have competed at light heavyweight,or cruiserweight today
If one style and one era is easily comparable,go out and fight like Jack Johnson,let us all know how it goes
This is why these comparisons get stupid
You cant compare Frazier to Tyson or to Louis
They fought different opponents,in different eras
But to get insulting because some one doesnt bow to the altar of your fighter,is equally stupid

[The_One77]

joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down

When was Joe ever wobbled by Quarry ?? i watched both fights and he was never wobbled he got caught with few good punches but never wobbled and i don't know about chin department i would say Frazier has just as good as chin as Tyson and he certainly has more heart.

sorry, mean Oscar Natalio....not Quarry
Frazier never took on heavy punchers except Foreman and he got knocked down 7 odd times in 2 rounds, Tyson was very resilient...it would take a long time to knock Tyson out because he took a punch well, it was the overral accumulation of punishment that eventually Ko'd him.
Sure he didn't have Frazier's balls for a hard fight but it wouldn't matter if they fought, Tyson would knock him out early.

[The_One77]

Frazier was his best at 205, but his bodyfat percentage was still higher than Tyson's...
Tyson was 20-25 lbs heavier but came in ripped, the guy was a genetic beast when it came to muscle mass..
When Frazier came in 215 he was a fatty (no disrespect intended, just fact).....if he maintained a proper diet and good weightlifting program he could of hanged with Tyson in that department.

[ICB]

joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down

When was Joe ever wobbled by Quarry ?? i watched both fights and he was never wobbled he got caught with few good punches but never wobbled and i don't know about chin department i would say Frazier has just as good as chin as Tyson and he certainly has more heart.

sorry, mean Oscar Natalio....not Quarry
Frazier never took on heavy punchers except Foreman and he got knocked down 7 odd times in 2 rounds, Tyson was very resilient...it would take a long time to knock Tyson out because he took a punch well, it was the overral accumulation of punishment that eventually Ko'd him.
Sure he didn't have Frazier's balls for a hard fight but it wouldn't matter if they fought, Tyson would knock him out early.

Yes i see who you mean now Oscar Bonavena but that was very early in his career when he was inexperienced and Oscar was much more experienced Tyson never did have Heart he had decent chin but he had no heart and if Frazier could last early rounds which im 50-50 on he could beat Tyson with his massive heart like Holyfield did and stop him late on.

Just let you know im not Tyson hater i think he was good fighter but he lacked few things that boxer needs and thats heart and his head he had bad mental problems which you won't last long with those sort of problems.

[El Kabong]

No he did cocaine in the late 60's,wich of course youve allready stated definitivly e didnt,even though he did.
As far as what we're doing here,were compairing fighters from different era's that would have competed at light heavyweight,or cruiserweight today
If one style and one era is easily comparable,go out and fight like Jack Johnson,let us all know how it goes
This is why these comparisons get stupid
You cant compare Frazier to Tyson or to Louis
They fought different opponents,in different eras
But to get insulting because some one doesnt bow to the altar of your fighter,is equally stupid

But I ask for FACTS about Joe Louis' SUPPOSED "weak chin" and Rocky Marciano's SUPPOSED "lack of power"....you have brought nothing to those arguments which, YOU CREATED!

And you still haven't provided me evidence that Joe Louis was a heroin addict either....which I HIGHLY doubt he was...I don't know of ANY boxer who abused heroin it makes you slow and dosile and weak.....cocaine has been abused by any boxer who had a drug problem: Whittaker, Leonard, Tyson, Bruno, Cobb, Witherspoon, Tate.....the list goes on and on.


Opinions are just fine and dandy but you can't fuck with facts bro

[undefeated]

only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?

how would joe of done vs other greats

holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis

his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?

-the frazier that beat ali(prime)--could beat holmes--he would wear holmes down and late ko---ali is better than holmes--so if he could beat ali then he can beat holmes

-tough one i say liston --late stoppage

these 2 are like machines -it would b a war w/rocky --could go either way--rockys right vs fraziers left

-frazier would easily dismantle lewis
-tyson would ko frazier in 8
-frazier would take what dempesy could dish out then ko dempsy in 13

would b 2 much for louis--ko louis in 12

[Trainer Monkey]

No he did cocaine in the late 60's,wich of course youve allready stated definitivly e didnt,even though he did.
As far as what we're doing here,were compairing fighters from different era's that would have competed at light heavyweight,or cruiserweight today
If one style and one era is easily comparable,go out and fight like Jack Johnson,let us all know how it goes
This is why these comparisons get stupid
You cant compare Frazier to Tyson or to Louis
They fought different opponents,in different eras
But to get insulting because some one doesnt bow to the altar of your fighter,is equally stupid

But I ask for FACTS about Joe Louis' SUPPOSED "weak chin" and Rocky Marciano's SUPPOSED "lack of power"....you have brought nothing to those arguments which, YOU CREATED!

And you still haven't provided me evidence that Joe Louis was a heroin addict either....which I HIGHLY doubt he was...I don't know of ANY boxer who abused heroin it makes you slow and dosile and weak.....cocaine has been abused by any boxer who had a drug problem: Whittaker, Leonard, Tyson, Bruno, Cobb, Witherspoon, Tate.....the list goes on and on.


Opinions are just fine and dandy but you can't F*** with facts bro

Tony Ayala bragged that he used to take smack right before fights he WON

[ICB]

only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?

how would joe of done vs other greats

holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis

his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?

-the frazier that beat ali(prime)--could beat holmes--he would wear holmes down and late ko---ali is better than holmes--so if he could beat ali then he can beat holmes

-tough one i say liston --late stoppage

these 2 are like machines -it would b a war w/rocky --could go either way--rockys right vs fraziers left

-frazier would easily dismantle lewis
-tyson would ko frazier in 8
-frazier would take what dempesy could dish out then ko dempsy in 13

would b 2 much for louis--ko louis in 12

I disagree with Frazier vs Holmes Ali fought Frazier different by mostly staying on ropes and Holmes don't fight like that and did you see 2nd fight how he quite comfortably outpointed Joe by sticking and moving ?? thats how Holmes would win.

[Trainer Monkey]

Yep,that Jab was tailor made for a shorter fighter like Frazier

[El Kabong]

Holmes couldn't take the pressure or the power for a full 15....Holmes had more power than Ali but he wasn't as good or as fast.



Wow AYALA....there's ONE example....you still haven't sold me on Louis using it

[undefeated]

only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?

how would joe of done vs other greats

holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis

his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?

-the frazier that beat ali(prime)--could beat holmes--he would wear holmes down and late ko---ali is better than holmes--so if he could beat ali then he can beat holmes

-tough one i say liston --late stoppage

these 2 are like machines -it would b a war w/rocky --could go either way--rockys right vs fraziers left

-frazier would easily dismantle lewis
-tyson would ko frazier in 8
-frazier would take what dempesy could dish out then ko dempsy in 13

would b 2 much for louis--ko louis in 12

I disagree with Frazier vs Holmes Ali fought Frazier different by mostly staying on ropes and Holmes don't fight like that and did you see 2nd fight how he quite comfortably outpointed Joe by sticking and moving ?? thats how Holmes would win.

that is true --however frazier was no longer at his prime during ali-frazier 2---that frazier was just not the same --he lost his knack. the frazier during the first bout was a champion in his prime--frazier during the second bout was a contender past his prime. the frazier that beat ali the first time would wear holmes down then ko his ass by late stoppage. ali was an overall better fighter than holmes--so 1971 frazier would give holmes a whupping -but a 1974 frazier would get a whupping