Is Kostya Tszyu really the greatest 140 pounder ever?

[OumaFan]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

[CutMeMick]

As for a vs. fight between Pryor & Tszyu I'd favor Tszyu....

Tszyu the greatest 14O lbers... Uuhhhhh! Well that depends....

What about Locche, JCC, Perkins & Cervantes? All-Time greats.
(I don't rate Loi as I've not seen much of him lot's of Highlights but still not enough)

I don't think anyone of them dominated the division as well as Tszyu did but they all have the advantage of quality of opposition over Tszyu. While Locche, Cervantes, Loi & Perkins all had eachother but neither dominated the division. Tszyu had some excellent opposition but IMO none of them would be considered All-Time greats however he was able to become the Undisputed Unified Champion and regined supreme. It's pretty tricky here and I think it would all be up to each person to determine if you favor dominance of the division over quality of opponents.

Trust you,mr.encyclopedia to mention fighters no-one else has mentioned. I have 4 fights of Locche,he was excellent,Cervantes was an excellent fighter too but who are Loi and Perkins?

Dulio Lois an Italian great argueably #1 above Sandro & Sumbu (by way of Zaire)....
I've only seen highlights of his fights I think one full fight... He looked light on his feet and very compact and smart with his punches.
Eddie Perkins another guy who was light on his feet and was a super boxer used great ring generalship and do a lot of things well. Talk about who fought anyone and anywhere this guy traveled allover to defend his titles and gain spots in the rankings....

[zhubin]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

Than by your logic does Floyd have a truly great win? Over a truly elite, prime fighter? Because i don' think Floyd's resume is any more impressive than KT's. That's why i wish they had fought each other....it would have been a great fight AND it would have made their resume that much stronger.

[Taeth]

I'm really surprised,I did this thread about a year and a half ago, and I'm sure the consensus was that he was the best 140 pounder! Wow!You guys all make valid points.

You can make a case for JCC, Pryor, or Chavez being the best at that weight. All great fighters. But in his prime...i wouldn't bet against Tszyu against anybody at 140. Tremendous power, skill, and intelligence. As The Third Man already mentioned...he wasn't physically right in the Phillips fight. The Hatton fight was a combination of age and horrible refereeing. Not trying to make excuses for Kostya...just don't think he was at his best for those two fights. My dream fight has always been Tszyu vs. Mayweather in their primes. That would have been a tremendous fight!

I used to think Tszyu would beat Mayweather but I'm not so sure anymore.Not at all. To beat Floyd,you need alot more things than just 1 huge punch. Mayweather has shown,even in the Oscar fight,if your arsenal is primarily based around 1 punch,you're not going to beat him,no matter how good it is(and Oscar's left hook is a thing of beauty).

I do think Tszyu had a way of solving boxers,and he had an awesome sense of timing,but Mayweather is in a different league to Mitchell and Zab. And as for Kostya lasting with Aaaron Pryor,forget about it. Every fighter has a style that they cannot handle,for KT,I think that is in your face pressure fighters,like Hatton and Phillips. They never gave him a chance to get his bombs off,they never gave him time to think. Pryor was more monstrous than those 2 combined,Pryor stops Tszyu every time for me.The Hawk may get dropped but he'll get back up and win for sure imo.

I don't think Tszyu could have beaten Hatton even in his prime.Hatton had too much pressure and walked through his best shots. I'd give Tszyu more of a chance if the fight was not in England for sure,and if he was younger,but I'd still choose Hatton to win. I didn't see a single sign in the first match for me to say Tszyu would beat Hatton.

Tszyu possessed much more than just a powerful single punch. He is a better fighter and better conditioned athlete than Oscar as well. To beat Floyd you need good speed, timing, accuracy, stamina, and intelligence. All of which KT had in abundance to go along with his great power. Not saying KT would definitely win...but it would have been a great fight and BY FAR Floyd's biggest challenge. I guess one can argue that Hatton's pressure style could have always posed problems for Tszyu. But the fight took place way to late in his career and under far from ideal circumstances for me to simply think Hatton could have beaten Tszyu in his prime. And again...i just feel he wasn't physically right against Phillips. As for Pryor...he was a beast. No question he would be a great challenge for anyone at that weight.

Tszyu is a better technical fighter than Oscar, but Oscar's left hook lands as hard as Tszyu's right hand, he is alot faster than Tszyum, and Oscar has always had good timing, and Floyd Snr has improved his defensive to go along with that height made it hard for Mayweather to land a lot of his shots the way he likes to. Tszyu is definitely a good fighter, but this fight is more like JCC-Whitaker than anything... Mayweather is too slick, too durable, and too hard to hit for Tszyu to stand a real chance against. Mayweather was way faster at 140 than he is now, what him against Gatti, Corley, etc., and you will see a guy too quick, and too smart for Tszyu as great as he was. Because he, Floyd, didn't stay at the weight he would be considered ATG better at the weight, but he would beat Tszyu decidedly, However I still believe JCC was better than Tszyu in many aspects and its a toss up between them for who's the "greatest" 140 pounder.

Oscar is a lot faster than KT?! That's news to me. Oscar is not as skilled, smart, and well conditioned as Tszyu was. I also find it ridiculous that you would think a Mayweather vs. Tszyu fight would be like JCC-Whitaker. KT fought nothing like Chavez and he thrived against fast/technical fighters. If anything...it would be a fighter with a pressure style that would give KT more trouble...and Floyd certainly is not a pressure fighter. Tszyu great power makes some people sometimes forget what a great technical and cerebral fighter he was. AGAIN...i am not saying KT would definitely win against Floyd...but you are dreaming if you think it would have been a one sided fight in Floyd's favor. And please don't use Gatti and Corley as an example of how Floyd would fare against Tszyu...those fighter are no where near the same caliber.

Oscar is quite a bit faster than Kostya Tszyu, his handspeed is on another level.. Also its up for debate how much of a great boxer Tszyu was, I think he was a little better, but not way better htan a guy who was the first person to make Trinidad look one dimensional, A guy who gave Hopkins 7 good rounds before size beat him. A guy who fought two close fights with Mosley in his prime the first time, and near it the second time, and IMO Oscar boxed his ears off that time. I mean they both beat an old JCC in a similar fashion. As for Tszyu not fighting like JCC that doesn't matter, he would not be able to box a distance against MAyweather so he would have to come forward trying to land that right cross, but its almost impossible to land any shot against Mayweather cleanly... I mean I can't think of a single opponent who has been able to totally stop Oscar from landing a real left hook, even against Whitaker he landed one or two, but except the very last seconds when Floyd opened up Oscar wasn't able to land that shot at all. IMO it would be pretty close rounds, but Mayweather would win most of them because speed and timing beats just timing.

[THE THIRD MAN]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

I don't think it was his fault that fighters like Mosley, DLH and to a lesser degree PBF chose to
avoid him, DLH went to 147lb in 97 to fight Whitaker and Mosley missed 140 altogether to fight DLH,
A loss to Tszyu by either fighter and huge paydays go down the drain.
I don't blame these guys because Tszyu would have been to dangerous to face at that time.
PBF had his chance as he was still fighting in divisions below Tszyu until 2004.
Tszyu also had a habit of ending good fighters careers, not many of his opponents were the same again after losing to Tszyu. You are correct in saying he never had a mega fight but there are valid reasons for it not happening. Imagine a Pryor V Tszyu fight, it would've have been a sight to behold!

[Kel]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

I don't think it was his fault that fighters like Mosley, DLH and to a lesser degree PBF chose to
avoid him, DLH went to 147lb in 97 to fight Whitaker and Mosley missed 140 altogether to fight DLH,
A loss to Tszyu by either fighter and huge paydays go down the drain.
I don't blame these guys because Tszyu would have been to dangerous to face at that time.
PBF had his chance as he was still fighting in divisions below Tszyu until 2004.
Tszyu also had a habit of ending good fighters careers, not many of his opponents were the same again after losing to Tszyu. You are correct in saying he never had a mega fight but there are valid reasons for it not happening. Imagine a Pryor V Tszyu fight, it would've have been a sight to behold!

Nice post

[zhubin]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

I don't think it was his fault that fighters like Mosley, DLH and to a lesser degree PBF chose to
avoid him, DLH went to 147lb in 97 to fight Whitaker and Mosley missed 140 altogether to fight DLH,
A loss to Tszyu by either fighter and huge paydays go down the drain.
I don't blame these guys because Tszyu would have been to dangerous to face at that time.
PBF had his chance as he was still fighting in divisions below Tszyu until 2004.
Tszyu also had a habit of ending good fighters careers, not many of his opponents were the same again after losing to Tszyu. You are correct in saying he never had a mega fight but there are valid reasons for it not happening. Imagine a Pryor V Tszyu fight, it would've have been a sight to behold!

Well said. Cool Click!

[ICB]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

I don't think it was his fault that fighters like Mosley, DLH and to a lesser degree PBF chose to
avoid him, DLH went to 147lb in 97 to fight Whitaker and Mosley missed 140 altogether to fight DLH,
A loss to Tszyu by either fighter and huge paydays go down the drain.
I don't blame these guys because Tszyu would have been to dangerous to face at that time.
PBF had his chance as he was still fighting in divisions below Tszyu until 2004.
Tszyu also had a habit of ending good fighters careers, not many of his opponents were the same again after losing to Tszyu. You are correct in saying he never had a mega fight but there are valid reasons for it not happening. Imagine a Pryor V Tszyu fight, it would've have been a sight to behold!

Sorry but i totally disagree with this post, Mosley never even fought at Jr Welterweight and jumped straight up to Welterweight after his last Lightweight fight vs John Brown, so i don't see how he was avoiding Tszyu. ODLH was trying to set up a big pay day fight vs Pernell Whitaker at Welterweight, Tszyu didn't do himself any favors if he was trying to set up a fight with ODLH by getting destroyed by the mediocre Vince Phillips. ODLH fought everybody Chavez, Whitaker, Hopkins, Mayweather, etc. I seriously doubt ODLH would of avoided Tszyu. And as for Mayweather vs Tszyu that fight was going to happen if Tszyu got past Hatton he didn't and the rest is history.

[CutMeMick]

Amongst all this talk of fights that were gonna happen...

One fight that was suppose to happen and Mr. PBF opted out on was a fight with Popo in 1999-2000.
And that right there is a fact....
The talk of this fight is different today since it can now be said "PBF would destroy him or PBF would toy with him" yeah! that's after the fact. But alot of things to keep in mind are who both fighters were back then how each fighters career was going. Popo in 11 title fights had 9 KO's, PBF had 9 title fights with 6 KO's these 2 guys were at their best. Anyone who say PBF would have toyed with him or would have won easily is truely dilusional...
I've always felt that if they would have fought that Popo would have won.

[THE THIRD MAN]

I've thought for a while that his resume was overrated.

He doesn't have a great win, he has some good wins.

Doesn't mean he's not a good fighter, I think he was a great fighter but he never had that elite win. Maybe for a time Judah looked like a great win but does anybody really think that's a great win now? You can say it wasn't his fault that he never had that big fight win but that's not really the point.

And he didn't avenge his losses, although the Hatton one is understandable cause he was getting up there and just decided to retire.

So I would say no.

50% of all Tszyu's fights were against World Champions, how can his resume be overrated? As for rematches, a Phillips second fight was scheduled but he lost to Millett in 1999 and Tszyu went onto to fight Miguel Angel Gonzalez.

stats like that don't really mean a whole lot to me, I'm not saying he didn't fight some good fighters but I don't think he ever beat a truly great fighter and that hurts him record wise. He's beaten some good fighters, some good champions but who would you say was his best win? Judah, Gonzalez, Hurtado, Mitchell, Urkal? Those are good wins, some very good but any of those guys truly elite?

BTW you might be right about the rematch stuff, I don't remember but it wouldn't have hurt him legacy wise to rematch Phillips anyway. Either way that's not as big a deal. Its not like I don't think he was a great fighter, he's a Hall of Famer, just for whatever reason (like other people have said some guys just pretty much skipped right over 140)he never had that truly great win IMO.

I don't think it was his fault that fighters like Mosley, DLH and to a lesser degree PBF chose to
avoid him, DLH went to 147lb in 97 to fight Whitaker and Mosley missed 140 altogether to fight DLH,
A loss to Tszyu by either fighter and huge paydays go down the drain.
I don't blame these guys because Tszyu would have been to dangerous to face at that time.
PBF had his chance as he was still fighting in divisions below Tszyu until 2004.
Tszyu also had a habit of ending good fighters careers, not many of his opponents were the same again after losing to Tszyu. You are correct in saying he never had a mega fight but there are valid reasons for it not happening. Imagine a Pryor V Tszyu fight, it would've have been a sight to behold!

Sorry but i totally disagree with this post, Mosley never even fought at Jr Welterweight and jumped straight up to Welterweight after his last Lightweight fight vs John Brown, so i don't see how he was avoiding Tszyu. ODLH was trying to set up a big pay day fight vs Pernell Whitaker at Welterweight, Tszyu didn't do himself any favors if he was trying to set up a fight with ODLH by getting destroyed by the mediocre Vince Phillips. ODLH fought everybody Chavez, Whitaker, Hopkins, Mayweather, etc. I seriously doubt ODLH would of avoided Tszyu. And as for Mayweather vs Tszyu that fight was going to happen if Tszyu got past Hatton he didn't and the rest is history.

ICE, i'm just saying that Mosley missed him altogether to move up and fight DLH which i do not blame him for at all. Whether or not he avoided him is up for another debate, my point is that the opportunity may have been there to fight Tszyu at that time as he was a former 135lb champ. As for DLH, he fought Whitaker at 147 in April 97' one month before Tszyu fought Phillips at 140lb. I don't see DLH going back down to 140 to fight Tszyu even if he did beat Phillips. Tszyu's people had been chasing DLH since 1995 for a fight. I know a PBF fight was going to happen in late 2005 if Tszyu got past Hatton, again the opportunity was there beforehand. All of this means Tszyu missed his chance at a Super Fight.